oneofthemikes Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 17 hours ago, Tony said: Without being in the room, it felt like Cooper had a business card with 6-7 of his core pitching philosophies printed on them, and would just hand them out to the staff and say “Good luck.” 1) Ditch your breaking ball 2) Stay tall 3) Seriously, no breaking ball 4) I don't care if it has worked for your entire career so far, no more 5) Throw cutters 6) More cutters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradMc Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) Dunning had great stuff. He's better than Cease. Extremely disappointment (but certainly not surprised) Reinsdorf opted to trading for instead of signing a FA pitching upgrade. Edited February 4, 2021 by GradMc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHAH Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, GradMc said: Dunning had great stuff. He's better than Cease. Extremely disappointment (but certainly not surprised) Reinsdorf opted to trading for instead of signing a FA pitching upgrade. Dunning was not better than Cease and his stuff is nowhere near the quality of Cease. Edited February 4, 2021 by SHAH 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambuca Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, SHAH said: Dunning was not better than Cease and his stuff is nowhere near the quality of Cease. Dunning’s “natural” stuff is nowhere near as good as Cease, whose stuff can compete with anyone in baseball. Right now though, Cease’s stuff is useless. He needs a lot of work. Dunning, on the other hand, does not need a lot of work. He already has great command, and knows how to use/locate his pitches. Back to Dunning’s stuff, it is extremely underrated. While he showed flashes last season (not sure some of you even noticed), his stuff was not peak. He was recovering from TJ in a weird season hiding in an independent league stadium. His arm was not at full strength and it showed. His fastball and breaking pitches looked awesome in his debut, and that wasn’t even his full arsenal. After that first start when Renteria pitched him too long, he never regained that fastball or snap on his breaking pitches. His command also seemed to suffer from limited arm strength/durability. Check out his BB rate in the minors. Cease does have ace potential. But he also has an very low floor. Dunning has a pretty decent floor, but don’t get it twisted, he can be more than “only a 4/5.” It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see Dunning be a top of the rotation pitcher for a period of time. Edited February 4, 2021 by Sambuca 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 On 2/2/2021 at 7:11 PM, Sambuca said: Cease (Not Giolito) has a lot to figure out, fix, and then retain throughout the season. Let’s hope he can be a solid 3/4/5 with flashes of dominance. Nah man, I'm not gonna hope he can be a solid 3/4/5 pitcher. This guy not that long ago was a top 50 prospect, and we all viewed him as having TOR potential. I'm gonna hope he can be a solid 1/2/3 pitcher. Same goes for Kopech. I spent years dreaming of a Kopech/Cease top of the rotation...and then when Giolito turned into the guy he is now??? Woof. I also think the whole "Too much pressure on Katz" thing is a little silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambuca Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, scs787 said: Nah man, I'm not gonna hope he can be a solid 3/4/5 pitcher. This guy not that long ago was a top 50 prospect, and we all viewed him as having TOR potential. I'm gonna hope he can be a solid 1/2/3 pitcher. Same goes for Kopech. I spent years dreaming of a Kopech/Cease top of the rotation...and then when Giolito turned into the guy he is now??? Woof. I also think the whole "Too much pressure on Katz" thing is a little silly. I meant next season, not for his entire career. Hoping he can be a 1/2 or even 3 next year is absurdly hopeful and unrealistic. He might figure it out, I’m just not expecting him to figure it out this quickly. It’s not impossible though. I never mentioned Kopech, because I don’t expect Kopech to struggle like Cease has. Having two years off, makes it hard for me to say this, but Kopech not only has better stuff, he is more developed and has displayed much better command. Kopech is also not afraid to throw a pitch in the zone while ahead in the count. I’m not expecting Kopech to come up and throw four breaking balls two feet outside the zone every time he gets an 0-2 count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 6 hours ago, Sambuca said: I meant next season, not for his entire career. Hoping he can be a 1/2 or even 3 next year is absurdly hopeful and unrealistic. He might figure it out, I’m just not expecting him to figure it out this quickly. It’s not impossible though. I never mentioned Kopech, because I don’t expect Kopech to struggle like Cease has. Having two years off, makes it hard for me to say this, but Kopech not only has better stuff, he is more developed and has displayed much better command. Kopech is also not afraid to throw a pitch in the zone while ahead in the count. I’m not expecting Kopech to come up and throw four breaking balls two feet outside the zone every time he gets an 0-2 count. I've been absurdly hopeful all my sports life, I'm an optimist for sure. That said, I don't think its that crazy to think Cease has a Giolito like jump...and I dont say that merely because of Katz either, just a different perspective at pitching coach period changes things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 22 hours ago, shakes said: I haven't been as convinced of a Cease turnaround, but I am hopeful Katz can certainly help. And he doesn't need to be an ace, but a plus back end starter would go a long way. I know it's not the same, but if there are any golfers here, you can truly relate to this. You can know exactly what you are doing wrong, but by yourself it is so hard to correct. Having drills, and someone watching to ensure you are doing those correctly and translating it to a swing - is a true game changer. Just going by 'feel' can often lead to bad corrections and overcorrections, sometimes making things worse. You have to get to a place to stop thinking. That's hard. Following through with the golf analogy...some days you have your timing/rhythm and other days...not so much. Muscle memory is the key to consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 hours ago, poppysox said: Following through with the golf analogy...some days you have your timing/rhythm and other days...not so much. Muscle memory is the key to consistency. Absolutely. I've been an avid bowler all my life and there's another analogy there as well. It wasn't until I started doing towel drills until I started to really come around. I feel like this velocity belt is akin to the towel drill I was doing with bowling. You can tell me to stay tight all you want but forcing myself to stay tight with the the towel really changed everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 12 hours ago, GradMc said: Dunning had great stuff. He's better than Cease. Extremely disappointment (but certainly not surprised) Reinsdorf opted to trading for instead of signing a FA pitching upgrade. Key here is present tense. But there is zero question in the world where the upside lies, and it becomes a philosophical question at that point. Would you rather have a guy with a higher chance of being a 50 to 55 starting pitcher, or a guy whose ceiling is about a 65, but with a higher bust factor? The Sox have made their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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