Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Then they are coming off of a World Series title and don't GAF about payroll. I don't care if they're in the middle of a window or not, you can't let a player like Giolito walk. In 2025-26 The Sox are going to be right where the Cubs are now, hopefully with their players coming off of good seasons. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I don't care if they're in the middle of a window or not, you can't let a player like Giolito walk. In 2025-26 The Sox are going to be right where the Cubs are now. You are missing the forest for the trees here. We aren't Cleveland or Tampa. We have never traded away top end players during our competitive times, and we would not be about to start to now, especially if the Sox hit the pitching lottery and Crochet, Kopech, and Cease are all freaking aces. If the Sox are in the playoffs, they dont' GAF about 2026 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You are missing the forest for the trees here. We aren't Cleveland or Tampa. We have never traded away top end players during our competitive times, and we would not be about to start to now, especially if the Sox hit the pitching lottery and Crochet, Kopech, and Cease are all freaking aces. If the Sox are in the playoffs, they dont' GAF about 2026 With the way they've approached the offseason this year they could have confused me. Either a) trade him or b) re-sign him. c) letting Giolito walk shouldn't be an option, depending on his performance over the next 3 years. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: With the way they've approached the offseason this year they could have confused me. I don't see how. Cleveland cut their payroll in half, trading away everyone on the team making any sort of paycheck. Tampa traded away their best pitcher. What did the Sox do that was equal to that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I don't see how. Cleveland cut their payroll in half, trading away everyone on the team making any sort of paycheck. Tampa traded away their best pitcher. What did the Sox do that was equal to that? The Sox are in a different point in their contention window. Cleveland's is closing, Tampa does what it does as a small market team attempting to be competitive. The Sox should be aggressively adding, and even if they wanted to be frugal because of the pandemic there were better ways to do that. Blowing their entire budget on a closer probably wasn't the best idea. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: The Sox are in a different point in their contention window. Cleveland's is closing, Tampa does what it does as a small market team attempting to be competitive. The Sox should be aggressively adding, and even if they wanted to be frugal because of the pandemic there were better ways to do that. Blowing their entire budget on a closer probably wasn't the best idea. Hey look, there went those goal posts again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Hey look, there went those goal posts again! Not really........What would Cleveland and Tampa do if they were in the same point of contention that the Sox are? The Sox are in year 2 of a 4-5 year window. Compare what Cleveland did in the winters of 2015-17 to what the Sox did. That's an apples to apples comparison. The Sox acted like a small market team this winter, no question about it. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Not really........What would Cleveland and Tampa do if they were in the same point of contention that the Sox are? The Sox are in year 2 of a 4-5 year window. Compare what Cleveland did in the winters of 2015-17 to what the Sox did. That's an apples to apples comparison. The Sox acted like a small market team this winter, no question about it. Uh, the Indians and Ray's were in the playoffs last year just like the Sox. What did they do, and what did the Sox do. what have both of those teams done when they win? They tear down and continue retooling/rebuilding depending where their core is. you are mistaken if you think the Sox operate in the same manner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Uh, the Indians and Ray's were in the playoffs last year just like the Sox. What did they do, and what did the Sox do. what have both of those teams done when they win? They tear down and continue retooling/rebuilding depending where their core is. you are mistaken if you think the Sox operate in the same manner I know......The Sox operate in this weird middle ground, where they refuse to give out 9 figure contracts and they also refuse to trade players deserving of them while they still have a year or two team control. What I am saying is that this is the most asinine position to take. Either you sign the guy or you trade them for players that can help in a year or two.......however with the way that top prospects are being valued in the current market, I could see the argument for them keeping a guy in his walk year. We'll see how the Rays and Cleveland made out in a year or two. If the Sox are going to continue to have a refusal to hand out 9 figure contracts, then maybe they should consider doing what those teams do. The issue with how the Sox are run is that they continue to walk the line between being a big market club and a small market club. Pick a lane. I want them to just be honest with their fans about what their budget is like. If they're going to go frugal, then we can hold them accountable when they DON'T act like Cleveland and Tampa, because if they're being that way, that's what they SHOULD do. I have no problems with them having a budget or whatnot, but don't act like Machado is an actual fucking possibility then, and behave accordingly. Be willing to take a step back in the middle of a window to minimize non-contention. My issue is that they continually lie to the fanbase about spending, and then do stupid shit like trade Dane Dunning for Lance Lynn. That's something that a big market club does.....that sets expectations. My issue is that the Sox operate in the most fan-unfriendly way on both lanes. They do all of the dumb shit for team building on both ends of the payroll spectrum and none of the smart things. What good is having financial flexibility if you never use it? Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Not really........What would Cleveland and Tampa do if they were in the same point of contention that the Sox are? The Sox are in year 2 of a 4-5 year window. Compare what Cleveland did in the winters of 2015-17 to what the Sox did. That's an apples to apples comparison. The Sox acted like a small market team this winter, no question about it. If we are playing the "what if" game, when have the Sox ever sold off a top pitcher for prospects during a run of expected contention? Literally the only time I can remember them selling what was viewed as a front of the rotation starter in Mike Sirotka, they got back what they thought was a superior pitcher in David Wells, and not prospects. I am not sure why you are crapping yourself selling a pitcher in 2023 because of 2026, when the expectation is that this should be a contending team, when there is nothing to indicate they will do so. Trying to tie in them not spending this winter to mean they will be selling a few years down the road is just crazy. The only way they are selling at that point is if the team feels they can't compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 20 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I know......The Sox operate in this weird middle ground, where they refuse to give out 9 figure contracts and they also refuse to trade players deserving of them while they still have a year or two team control. What I am saying is that this is the most asinine position to take. Either you sign the guy or you trade them for players that can help in a year or two.......however with the way that top prospects are being valued in the current market, I could see the argument for them keeping a guy in his walk year. We'll see how the Rays and Cleveland made out in a year or two. If the Sox are going to continue to have a refusal to hand out 9 figure contracts, then maybe they should consider doing what those teams do. The issue with how the Sox are run is that they continue to walk the line between being a big market club and a small market club. Pick a lane. I want them to just be honest with their fans about what their budget is like. If they're going to go frugal, then we can hold them accountable when they DON'T act like Cleveland and Tampa, because if they're being that way, that's what they SHOULD do. I have no problems with them having a budget or whatnot, but don't act like Machado is an actual fucking possibility then, and behave accordingly. Be willing to take a step back in the middle of a window to minimize non-contention. My issue is that they continually lie to the fanbase about spending, and then do stupid shit like trade Dane Dunning for Lance Lynn. That's something that a big market club does.....that sets expectations. My issue is that the Sox operate in the most fan-unfriendly way on both lanes. They do all of the dumb shit for team building on both ends of the payroll spectrum and none of the smart things. What good is having financial flexibility if you never use it? So you think the Sox are going to sell their top pitcher because he didn't extend, but then use an example of the Sox trading a prospect for a player NOT under long term control in the same thread. This is what I am talking about. I swear your day job is being the guy stands in front of Old Navy on State St with a loudspeaker preaching about the end of the world for the last 20 years. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: If we are playing the "what if" game, when have the Sox ever sold off a top pitcher for prospects during a run of expected contention? Literally the only time I can remember them selling what was viewed as a front of the rotation starter in Mike Sirotka, they got back what they thought was a superior pitcher in David Wells, and not prospects. I am not sure why you are crapping yourself selling a pitcher in 2023 because of 2026, when the expectation is that this should be a contending team, when there is nothing to indicate they will do so. Trying to tie in them not spending this winter to mean they will be selling a few years down the road is just crazy. The only way they are selling at that point is if the team feels they can't compete. They will be selling if they do not want to give out 9 figure contracts that start with a 2, because they have players on this team that will command that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: They will be selling if they do not want to give out 9 figure contracts that start with a 2, because they have players on this team that will command that kind of money. Giolito is not getting 200 million plus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: They will be selling if they do not want to give out 9 figure contracts that start with a 2, because they have players on this team that will command that kind of money. You are inventing imaginary scenarios to get mad about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: So you think the Sox are going to sell their top pitcher because he didn't extend, but then use an example of the Sox trading a prospect for a player NOT under long term control in the same thread. This is what I am talking about. I swear your day job is being the guy stands in front of Old Navy on State St with a loudspeaker preaching about the end of the world for the last 20 years. You're not getting the point........at all. What the Sox do is inconsistent with any sort of organizational plan. It's like they're doing random shit and don't care. I want them to pick a fucking lane. Either spend the money occasionally or behave like the Rays or A's. They don't get to do neither because that's just dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, fathom said: Giolito is not getting 200 million plus If he continues to get better and reaches free agency he absolutely will. If Bauer can get 200M, Giolito can. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: If he continues to get better and reaches free agency he absolutely will. Not a shot. He will be on the wrong side of 30 when he’s a FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: You're not getting the point........at all. What the Sox do is inconsistent with any sort of organizational plan. It's like they're doing random shit and don't care. I want them to pick a fucking lane. Either spend the money occasionally or behave like the Rays or A's. They don't get to do neither because that's just dumb. I think you are missing the point. The Sox aren't the Rays or A's and aren't going to behave like them in trading off their best players before they become too expensive. The Sox aren't the Dodgers or Yankees where they are ever going to lead the world in spending. There is a middle ground, and we are watching the Sox operate in it, because don't fit into one extreme or the other. We DO have history to go off of, and something called a pandemic which crushed their bottom line last year, so the fact that they aren't spending like the Yankees right now shouldn't be a surprise because the Sox also have always been sensitive to that, but as revenues get back to normal, I full expect the Sox to expand payroll around increasing revenues, just like they have for the last 40 years. But that isn't dramatic, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, fathom said: Not a shot. He will be on the wrong side of 30 when he’s a FA. If he reaches FA in winter 2023 he'll be 29, the same age that Gerrit Cole got a 9 year, 336M deal, and Trevor Bauer is right now. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I think you are missing the point. The Sox aren't the Rays or A's and aren't going to behave like them in trading off their best players before they become too expensive. The Sox aren't the Dodgers or Yankees where they are ever going to lead the world in spending. There is a middle ground, and we are watching the Sox operate in it, because don't fit into one extreme or the other. We DO have history to go off of, and something called a pandemic which crushed their bottom line last year, so the fact that they aren't spending like the Yankees right now shouldn't be a surprise because the Sox also have always been sensitive to that, but as revenues get back to normal, I full expect the Sox to expand payroll around increasing revenues, just like they have for the last 40 years. But that isn't dramatic, so... Teams that operate in the middle occasionally take the risk on a 9 figure contract, which the Sox have yet to do. They strategically pick their spots to spend on an expensive player. The Sox don't even do that. Even Robert and Moncada's extensions, if fully realized, will not reach 9 figures. The Sox do not take the calculated risks necessary to put their team over the top. There is no excuse for the Cardinals to have given out a higher contract than the Sox ever have. The Cardinals are a good example of a team that runs their team as a mid-market club properly. They pick their spots to spend and also let players that will get a ridiculous contract go. They gave Matt Holliday $120M back when that was a huge contract. Nobody is expecting the Sox to spend like the Dodgers, Yankees or Sawx/Cubs(during their windows) We expect them to spend more than league average though. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Teams that operate in the middle occasionally take the risk on a 9 figure contract, which the Sox have yet to do. They strategically pick their spots to spend on an expensive player. The Sox don't even do that. Even Robert and Moncada's extensions, if fully realized, will not reach 9 figures. The Sox do not take the calculated risks necessary to put their team over the top. There is no excuse for the Cardinals to have given out a higher contract than the Sox ever have. The Cardinals are a good example of a team that runs their team as a mid-market club properly. They pick their spots to spend and also let players that will get a ridiculous contract go. They gave Matt Holliday $120M back when that was a huge contract. Nobody is expecting the Sox to spend like the Dodgers, Yankees or Sawx/Cubs(during their windows) We expect them to spend more than league average though. And here go the goalposts again. None of this has anything to do with the team trading Giolito in a couple of years. It also ignores a lot of history, but I don't really expect much more here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: And here go the goalposts again. None of this has anything to do with the team trading Giolito in a couple of years. It also ignores a lot of history, but I don't really expect much more here. Listen, I think you're right and they won't trade him. Based on how they operate, they should though. There is tons of evidence from the 2000-2012 window about how they'll handle it. My point isn't about what they will do, it's about what they should do based on their past behavior. They can get away with it if two or three of Cease/Kopech/Crochet hit big. If one or none do, they can't. Edited February 4, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Why is trading Dane Dunning for Lance Lynn stupid again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Listen, I think you're right and they won't trade him. Based on how they operate, they should though. There is tons of evidence from the 2000-2012 window about how they'll handle it. My point isn't about what they will do, it's about what they should do based on their past behavior. They can get away with it if two or three of Cease/Kopech/Crochet hit big. If one or none do, they can't. If this team goes into a season where they think they can make the playoffs, Lucas Giolito isn't getting dealt. At the very worst the ride out the season and try to resign him. If not, he walks away. This is the same squad that rode out Paul Konerko during a World Series run. They aren't going to do something with Giolito because of his contract status if they think they can win something with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If this team goes into a season where they think they can make the playoffs, Lucas Giolito isn't getting dealt. At the very worst the ride out the season and try to resign him. If not, he walks away. This is the same squad that rode out Paul Konerko during a World Series run. They aren't going to do something with Giolito because of his contract status if they think they can win something with him. That's how they operate, yes. We're in agreement. The argument is whether they should do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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