Spring Training thread

[35thstreetswarm]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I very much disagree with this. If built correctly, teams can with with a controlled payroll, or at least they could (the Dodgers may have changed this last year by being that good). The Astros only had a $130 million ish payroll the year they won the title (slight assist from a cheap trash can noted). Cleveland made the World Series then won 100 games the next year. Tampa Bay made the World Series last year and had a legit shot at it. Kansas City.

The decisions, the professionalism of the front office are key in whether that is possible.  That includes when to rebuild, what players to hold onto and extend, how you behave with the press, fans, and players, and how to deploy your resources when they are limited (do you buy the best closer in the league and the second highest paid catcher if your payroll has strong limits?).

Well, if the Sox succeed this season you can add them to this list.  Let’s hold off on writing our epitaphs for this team as their window is just opening.  Perhaps we let it play out.

[hi8is]

This type of crap is why we need the season or spring training games to start. Certain times the “dead horse” hour of the board arrives and for me, this ushers it in.

[Balta1701]

37 minutes ago, hi8is said:

This type of crap is why we need the season or spring training games to start. Certain times the “dead horse” hour of the board arrives and for me, this ushers it in.

Then please lodge your complaint with the general manager who is paid 7 figures to run this team and who still has time to whine about how unfair it is that people are being mean to him on Twitter, and even by using his own words!

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I disagree with this. The amount of money they’re allowed to spend is definitely the biggest issue 

The evidence is you can disagree, but you would be wrong. Money matters, but Hahn will piss it away every time.

Let's focus on the second White Sox window Hahn is "trying" to win, since as we all know, his first go around sucked ass (2013-2016 - Four straight years of terrible under .500 baseball, missing an 100 loss season by a game). 

2019-2020 Off-season - Biggest Needs (Multiple Starting Pitchers & Right Field, one or two RPs). 2020 Budget for external free agents $64M

• $18.3M - Hahn's biggest contract - a lengthy contract (15% of payroll) to a catcher on the wrong side of 30. Caught just over half of games in a shortened season.
• $18.0M - May as well handcuff the club further with another overpay and lengthy deal for Keuchel, who can't top 90 MPH.
• $12.0M - Hahn just HAS TO HAVE yet another negative WAR mid 30s DH on his resume. The one saving grace, not another four year deal.
• $9.7M - Gio Gonzalez and Steve Cishek - Yeah, we found a playoff starter and late inning guy.
• $5.6M - Yes, Hahn filled the RF hole. Take a bow. 
• Extends Ricky Renteria through at least 2021, fires him 63 games later after their best record by far under GM Hahn.
• Not counted in the $60M budget, eating $8.5M with Kelvin Herrera, because well who wouldn't want to spend $18M when your tanking on Kelvin Herrera.

2020-2021 Off-season - Biggest Needs (wait for it, multiple starting pitchers and a RF plus one or two RPs). 2021 Budget for external free agents $64M $28M + Grandal and Soft toss Keuchel signed last year.

• $8.0M - I "promise" this former clubhouse cancer is better than Mazara. Hangs up on the flagship radio station interview 2 minutes in. Brings a negative WAR as well. The several better RF candidates, some of which are cheaper with any patience? No, White Sox policy is to sign a RFer before Christmas, doesn't matter if they are any good.
• $9.6M - Yes, we have a solid young SP, but why keep our youth when you can trade for a guy Tony knows. This is the best of Hahn's transactions, assuming he doesn't do something stupid like extend him 2-3 more years into his late 30s.
• $13.0M - You have solid internal candidates, can return Colome for $5M. Still have other ways to spend money. No, we need more guys La Russa knows. Long term contracts to relievers in the 30s, usually works out well. Hopefully a good chunk goes to pet rescue, at least it is a worthy cause.
• $4-5 +M? Signs Tony La Russa, because hey when you have a mid market payroll, why not pay for two managers.

[poppysox]

Would any of us like to be criticized daily on a message board for our job performance?  RH has done a good job putting together what looks to be the best spring training roster in my lifetime.  None of us know what budgets or stipulations have been put on him by JR or KW.  He has way more data and info from informed baseball people than any forum poster.  Yeah...I get why he gets annoyed from daily criticism from the peanut gallery.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Would any of us like to be criticized daily on a message board for our job performance?  RH has done a good job putting together what looks to be the best spring training roster in my lifetime.  None of us know what budgets or stipulations have been put on him by JR or KW.  He has way more data and info from informed baseball people than any forum poster.  Yeah...I get why he gets annoyed from daily criticism from the peanut gallery.

I will trade a 7 figure salary in a public job watching a kids game happily for being called out regularly for my job performance on Twitter. Right now. Please. 

But if that’s too tough for poor little Ricky’s fee-fees, he can resign today.

[South Side Hit Men]

8 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Would any of us like to be criticized daily on a message board for our job performance?  RH has done a good job putting together what looks to be the best spring training roster in my lifetime.  None of us know what budgets or stipulations have been put on him by JR or KW.  He has way more data and info from informed baseball people than any forum poster.  Yeah...I get why he gets annoyed from daily criticism from the peanut gallery.

Its public knowledge how Hahn spent on a substantial external free agent budget ($64M last year, over $35M + carryovers this year).

You know who has and can interpret "way more data and information"? Just about every other Front Office in MLB.

The best and brightest in the game, reading books. Rick Hahn, reads tweets.

[chitownsportsfan]

Good.  Grief.  Last week Hahn was a wallflower getting stepped on by his owner.  Today he's a whiner that can't handle fan criticism.  Guess what you guys proved his point.  Fans are fickle and mercurial.

[Kyyle23]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Good.  Grief.  Last week Hahn was a wallflower getting stepped on by his owner.  Today he's a whiner that can't handle fan criticism.  Guess what you guys proved his point.  Fans are fickle and mercurial.

The countdown to real games gets louder every day for me

[Chicago White Sox]

17 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Would any of us like to be criticized daily on a message board for our job performance?  RH has done a good job putting together what looks to be the best spring training roster in my lifetime.  None of us know what budgets or stipulations have been put on him by JR or KW.  He has way more data and info from informed baseball people than any forum poster.  Yeah...I get why he gets annoyed from daily criticism from the peanut gallery.

Rick Hahn has no one to blame for the ridicule he gets on the internet other than himself.  Acting like the Yasmani Grandal deal was this massive investment is simply carrying water for Jerry.  I get the need to toe the company line, but he has no right to rip into the fans for calling bullshit on him.

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Rick Hahn has no one to blame for the ridicule he gets on the internet other than himself.  Acting like the Yasmani Grandal deal was this massive investment is simply carrying water for Jerry.  I get the need to toe the company line, but he has no right to rip into the fans for calling bullshit on him.

If you think his mild criticism is ripping the fans than he's right some fans are excitable beyond reason and should be called out.

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Rick Hahn has no one to blame for the ridicule he gets on the internet other than himself.  Acting like the Yasmani Grandal deal was this massive investment is simply carrying water for Jerry.  I get the need to toe the company line, but he has no right to rip into the fans for calling bullshit on him.

It’s not tough at all to give an answer where you compliment rather than criticize the people paying your salary. Hell, Rick Hahn is often fine at it. 90% of the time he gives a fine non answer, but 10% of the time he gives a real answer and puts his foot in his mouth.

”if we keep playing like this we’ll be right there at the end (July 2015)”.

”we expect to add middle of the order hitters” (2018 Soxfest)

”The money will be spent”

”I look forward to conducting a number of interviews as it will help me learn about how to make this team better from a variety of perspectives”

”How dare people be mean on Twitter of all places!”

Here’s a better one, one that isn’t dripping with entitlement and acknowledges that the fans are demanding but also pay his salary.

”Oh we understand the fans are frustrated, they have a right to be, it’s been a tough few years for this team. But we believe we’ve put an excellent team on the field this year and we look forward to rewarding their patience”.

Doesn’t insult or call out his customers, acknowledges their frustration, keeps the response focused on the team and is positive in its reaction rather than negative. If that’s so hard for him, the White Sox employ one of the best public relations teams in baseball and I’m sure they’d be happy to provide him some media training.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

If you think his mild criticism is ripping the fans than he's right some fans are excitable beyond reason and should be called out.

What a strange take.  Are you actually suggesting White Sox fans should be content with the amount of money spent since Hahn uttered those famous words?  I’m not looking to cancel the dude over his comments, but he can’t whine his way out of what was actually said in the past.  Calling out the org for not spending what was signaled a few years ago is not a “hot take” and fans have a right to be frustrated.  Maybe Hahn should focus on the team and not what people say about him on the internet.

[Rounding_Third]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Cease is definitely the fulcrum of the 2021 season.  Obviously there are more important or impactful players, but Dylan can totally change the complexion of the rotation if he takes a major step forward.

Totally agree with this.  Cease has such a high ceiling.  And his delivery is so smooth and powerful right through his release and follow through; a great baseline to become an outstanding pitcher.   If he can be a steadying force, it will go a long way to supporting the terrible lack of SP depth.  If not, he could contribute to a domino effect throughout the rotation.  Hopefully, Rodon and/or Lopez can reverse their respective fortunes but history says that's unlikely.  That they don't cause TLR/EK to use Kopech more than planned;  hitting his shutdown prematurely, assuming he has no physical issues either.  Or that it causes 1-4 to pitch on 4 days rest too often.  If Cease is also on a pitch/innings limit, he's got be efficiently effective.  The rotation will probably have bumps that cause them to skip some starts from time to time.  There's currently not enough SP depth to cover it all; particularly down the stretch.  And this outstanding bullpen can become overtaxed by dog days.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Sox force themselves to trade for even 2 SP's and an RP or 2 by the deadline.  There'll be lots of 2022 FA SP's for rent and RH/KW have a solid trade history so that's very encouraging,  Hope they don't have to go to that well too early but a real possibility.  It's baffling that the Sox meticulously & cunningly rebuilt this incredible team over 4 long years but are potentially allowing a baseball fundamental of SP depth to bring headaches & hitches all season.  And if this fumbling causes just a handful of inexcusable extra losses, it could significantly effect the final standings.  But ST can also bring many surprises; hoping....  Stiever? McClure? Vargas?  Other(s)?  ...step up & prove worthy of a next level depth role?

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What a strange take.  Are you actually suggesting White Sox fans should be content with the amount of money spent since Hahn uttered those famous words?  I’m not looking to cancel the dude over his comments, but he can’t whine his way out of what was actually said in the past.  Calling out the org for not spending what was signaled a few years ago is not a “hot take” and fans have a right to be frustrated.  Maybe Hahn should focus on the team and not what people say about him on the internet.

I think it must be frustrating for Hahn because I think he has a clearly defined plan that really seems like its working...and yes he has a budget...and yes the money will be spent.  But isn't it possible he didn't like any of the big names this offseason?   The big fish were...Bauer...who had an amazing 73 innings in 2020 COVID year, after being fairly mediocre in 2019...a year where his contending team traded him at the trade deadline...that is a very controversial guy...and he got $40 million a year???  Instead he got Lance Lynn.   Realmuto who we didn't need...and Springer who was going to be paid a premium as a centerfielder which we didn't need.   Maybe he could have outbid everyone...but what if he uses that money to extend Gio...or take bad contracts (Sale, Yelich) at the deadline or watches how the team unfolds and spends then.   We don't know...but given our lack of knowledge, and with the predicate that he's done really well with the rebuild...he gets to hear he sucks and he lied by 3/4 of the twitterverse...and 3/4 of Soxtalk.   At THIS point we should give them man some trust.   Not total but at least guarded.  

[chitownsportsfan]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What a strange take.  Are you actually suggesting White Sox fans should be content with the amount of money spent since Hahn uttered those famous words?  I’m not looking to cancel the dude over his comments, but he can’t whine his way out of what was actually said in the past.  Calling out the org for not spending what was signaled a few years ago is not a “hot take” and fans have a right to be frustrated.  Maybe Hahn should focus on the team and not what people say about him on the internet.

This is Harper/Machado all over except in late February with a WS contending squad so yea I can and will say, politely, to please STFU about JR and Hahn and TLR and how bad things are as a Sox fan.

[Rounding_Third]

24 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think it must be frustrating for Hahn because I think he has a clearly defined plan that really seems like its working...and yes he has a budget...and yes the money will be spent.  But isn't it possible he didn't like any of the big names this offseason?   The big fish were...Bauer...who had an amazing 73 innings in 2020 COVID year, after being fairly mediocre in 2019...a year where his contending team traded him at the trade deadline...that is a very controversial guy...and he got $40 million a year???  Instead he got Lance Lynn.   Realmuto who we didn't need...and Springer who was going to be paid a premium as a centerfielder which we didn't need.   Maybe he could have outbid everyone...but what if he uses that money to extend Gio...or take bad contracts (Sale, Yelich) at the deadline or watches how the team unfolds and spends then.   We don't know...but given our lack of knowledge, and with the predicate that he's done really well with the rebuild...he gets to hear he sucks and he lied by 3/4 of the twitterverse...and 3/4 of Soxtalk.   At THIS point we should give them man some trust.   Not total but at least guarded.  

Agreed that probably been his plan all along.  Imo, the mistake in that is its in trade so its now cap spend + prospects/drafts/cash when it only had to be cap spend for a decent mid level SP FA.

[Chicago White Sox]

55 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Totally agree with this.  Cease has such a high ceiling.  And his delivery is so smooth and powerful right through his release and follow through; a great baseline to become an outstanding pitcher.   If he can be a steadying force, it will go a long way to supporting the terrible lack of SP depth.  If not, he could contribute to a domino effect throughout the rotation.  Hopefully, Rodon and/or Lopez can reverse their respective fortunes but history says that's unlikely.  That they don't cause TLR/EK to use Kopech more than planned;  hitting his shutdown prematurely, assuming he has no physical issues either.  Or that it causes 1-4 to pitch on 4 days rest too often.  If Cease is also on a pitch/innings limit, he's got be efficiently effective.  The rotation will probably have bumps that cause them to skip some starts from time to time.  There's currently not enough SP depth to cover it all; particularly down the stretch.  And this outstanding bullpen can become overtaxed by dog days.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Sox force themselves to trade for even 2 SP's and an RP or 2 by the deadline.  There'll be lots of 2022 FA SP's for rent and RH/KW have a solid trade history so that's very encouraging,  Hope they don't have to go to that well too early but a real possibility.  It's baffling that the Sox meticulously & cunningly rebuilt this incredible team over 4 long years but are potentially allowing a baseball fundamental of SP depth to bring headaches & hitches all season.  And if this fumbling causes just a handful of inexcusable extra losses, it could significantly effect the final standings.  But ST can also bring many surprises; hoping....  Stiever? McClure? Vargas?  Other(s)?  ...step up & prove worthy of a next level depth role?

Great post and fully agree!

[Chicago White Sox]

34 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This is Harper/Machado all over except in late February with a WS contending squad so yea I can and will say, politely, to please STFU about JR and Hahn and TLR and how bad things are as a Sox fan.

Lol...Harper/Machado all over again?  What in the fuck are you talking about?  This subject is being discussed because Hahn literally just brought up “the money has been spent” two days ago.  But please let us know what subjects are allowed by month so we can avoid invading your safe space in the future.

[Chicago White Sox]

46 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think it must be frustrating for Hahn because I think he has a clearly defined plan that really seems like its working...and yes he has a budget...and yes the money will be spent.  But isn't it possible he didn't like any of the big names this offseason?   The big fish were...Bauer...who had an amazing 73 innings in 2020 COVID year, after being fairly mediocre in 2019...a year where his contending team traded him at the trade deadline...that is a very controversial guy...and he got $40 million a year???  Instead he got Lance Lynn.   Realmuto who we didn't need...and Springer who was going to be paid a premium as a centerfielder which we didn't need.   Maybe he could have outbid everyone...but what if he uses that money to extend Gio...or take bad contracts (Sale, Yelich) at the deadline or watches how the team unfolds and spends then.   We don't know...but given our lack of knowledge, and with the predicate that he's done really well with the rebuild...he gets to hear he sucks and he lied by 3/4 of the twitterverse...and 3/4 of Soxtalk.   At THIS point we should give them man some trust.   Not total but at least guarded.  

Hahn is arguing that the money already has been spent though.  And he’s calling out fans on the internet who feel underwhelmed by that.

[chitownsportsfan]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol...Harper/Machado all over again?  What in the fuck are you talking about?  This subject is being discussed because Hahn literally just brought up “the money has been spent” two days ago.  But please let us know what subjects are allowed by month so we can avoid invading your safe space in the future.

I'm in a good mood man.  pandemic is ending, sun is warm in the sky again, UM hoops looks FF bound, my favorite baseball team starts spring training games in 36 hours.  Shit even the stinkin' Chicago Bulls look decent.  But hey, if you want to rehash your grievances Martin Luther style and pin them to your profile you do you.

[Rounding_Third]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

I'm in a good mood man.  pandemic is ending, sun is warm in the sky again, UM hoops looks FF bound, my favorite baseball team starts spring training games in 36 hours.  Shit even the stinkin' Chicago Bulls look decent.  But hey, if you want to rehash your grievances Martin Luther style and pin them to your profile you do you.

Hawks too are fun to watch again.  Sunday is Sox, Hawks & Bulls same time.  Sweeeeet!

[Y2Jimmy0]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I very much disagree with this. If built correctly, teams can with with a controlled payroll, or at least they could (the Dodgers may have changed this last year by being that good). The Astros only had a $130 million ish payroll the year they won the title (slight assist from a cheap trash can noted). Cleveland made the World Series then won 100 games the next year. Tampa Bay made the World Series last year and had a legit shot at it. Kansas City.

The decisions, the professionalism of the front office are key in whether that is possible.  That includes when to rebuild, what players to hold onto and extend, how you behave with the press, fans, and players, and how to deploy your resources when they are limited (do you buy the best closer in the league and the second highest paid catcher if your payroll has strong limits?).

The guys that everyone hates have built a team that could win the World Series despite an unwillingness from ownership to act like the big market team that MLB classifies it as. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Rounding_Third said:

Totally agree with this.  Cease has such a high ceiling.  And his delivery is so smooth and powerful right through his release and follow through; a great baseline to become an outstanding pitcher.   If he can be a steadying force, it will go a long way to supporting the terrible lack of SP depth.  If not, he could contribute to a domino effect throughout the rotation.  Hopefully, Rodon and/or Lopez can reverse their respective fortunes but history says that's unlikely.  That they don't cause TLR/EK to use Kopech more than planned;  hitting his shutdown prematurely, assuming he has no physical issues either.  Or that it causes 1-4 to pitch on 4 days rest too often.  If Cease is also on a pitch/innings limit, he's got be efficiently effective.  The rotation will probably have bumps that cause them to skip some starts from time to time.  There's currently not enough SP depth to cover it all; particularly down the stretch.  And this outstanding bullpen can become overtaxed by dog days.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Sox force themselves to trade for even 2 SP's and an RP or 2 by the deadline.  There'll be lots of 2022 FA SP's for rent and RH/KW have a solid trade history so that's very encouraging,  Hope they don't have to go to that well too early but a real possibility.  It's baffling that the Sox meticulously & cunningly rebuilt this incredible team over 4 long years but are potentially allowing a baseball fundamental of SP depth to bring headaches & hitches all season.  And if this fumbling causes just a handful of inexcusable extra losses, it could significantly effect the final standings.  But ST can also bring many surprises; hoping....  Stiever? McClure? Vargas?  Other(s)?  ...step up & prove worthy of a next level depth role?

This is frequently stated by many but I'm not sure I exactly follow.  We have three proven innings eating front line starters.  We have Cease who is half way there.   We have Rodon and Lopez with lots of starting experience and we have Kopech and Crochett who I keep advocating as the "fifth" starter with three innings for each.   I feel like that is five exciting starters (K-C as the fifth) with two back ups with experience/upside.  If you pay Bauer that eliminates the K-C concept...and also eliminates the extensions of Gio or Lopez...or stops us from getting Sale or Wheeler at the deadline.  I'm not sure outside of the Dodgers that any team has MORE starting pitching depth than the White Sox.   Obviously one of the top three blowing out their arms ruins things...which is true for all none Dodger teams...you can stay up at night worrying about it but I'd ask you which move would have fixed it?  

[michelangelosmonkey]

34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Hahn is arguing that the money already has been spent though.  And he’s calling out fans on the internet who feel underwhelmed by that.

The full article was behind the paywall so I just saw he was irritated at the meme.   Sox payroll right now is at $125m  A top 5 payroll is $175m.  If we really don't increase payroll aggressively in the next couple of years...I agree and will hate on Hahn (or JR).   Still if looking at this strategically I love our position...zero bad contracts and a low payroll as we enter the window.  So many ways we can go.