Edwin Encarnacion contract likely sent Sox in new direction this offseason

[Texsox]

Just now, iWiN4PreP said:

My point was that the Front office wasn't educated enough to sign Ozuna instead. They tend to spread the money around to mediocre or weak players. 

And my point is I would rather they spend money than talent in acquiring players. 

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

My point was that the Front office wasn't educated enough to sign Ozuna instead. They tend to spread the money around to mediocre or weak players. 

Was he willing to be a DH last year?

[he gone.]

32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, when it comes down to it, 4 of the guys on your list have earned >$120 million in their careers, Gardner has earned $85 million (Gennett is the lone one who hasn't already earned a big contract). If you've earned that much in your career and you're already dealing with pain from whatever nagging injury has beset you, do you really want to gear yourself up for a 5 week spring training and then spend 6 months away from your family for an extra $3 million?

I think it depends on the makeup of the player. Money plays a role, I also think pride and just being a competitive person also plays a role. I'd guess in the majority of cases when you get to be the level of these guys that they have a different motor that keeps them running. That said I obviously don't know any of the guys or which are motivated by what. From what I've heard EE thinks he can play 2 more years and wants an everyday role - guessing he doesn't want to go out the way he did. But its a valid point - i sure as hell wouldn't want to come back.

[iWiN4PreP]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Was he willing to be a DH last year?

He only played the field in 21 games last year. I'd imagine he realizes he is a DH.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I think it depends on the makeup of the player. Money plays a role, I also think pride and just being a competitive person also plays a role. I'd guess in the majority of cases when you get to be the level of these guys that they have a different motor that keeps them running. That said I obviously don't know any of the guys or which are motivated by what. From what I've heard EE thinks he can play 2 more years and wants an everyday role - guessing he doesn't want to go out the way he did. But its a valid point - i sure as hell wouldn't want to come back.

A $3 million contract to hold the position until May so that Vaughn can have an extra pre-arb year doesn't sound much like an everyday role. 

[VAfan]

The problem with this idea of a one-month stopgap is it just blocks Zack Collins, who needs more ABs, not fewer ABs, to get acclimated to the majors. I don't want someone here for only a few weeks. I'd rather give those ABs to Collins, who can't really be much worse than EE was last year.  And if Collins actually hits like his minor league profile suggests he should, he can then continue playing when Vaughn is up as a lefty alternative. Or Collins can catch sometimes and Grandal can DH. 

[HOFHurt35]

On 2/17/2021 at 2:21 PM, Tony said:

Signing Adam Eaton sort of blows this theory out of the water (among many other things) but OK.

Adam Eaton at  the very least can PR and play the OF as a late inning replacement if he were to suck as an everyday bat in the lineup.

Encarnacion was literally a corpse. 

 

[southsider2k5]

30 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Adam Eaton at  the very least can PR and play the OF as a late inning replacement if he were to suck as an everyday bat in the lineup.

Encarnacion was literally a corpse. 

 

At least until he hurts himself. Again.

[caulfield12]

On 2/18/2021 at 3:56 AM, VAfan said:

If you look at what Hahn and the Sox have done this offseason, I think the failed EE experiment last year, and to a lesser extent the Gio Gonzalez deal, led the Sox in a different direction.  For $13M (prorated though it was), the Sox got a .157/.250/.377 anchor in the middle of their lineup.  Had they brought up Andrew Vaughn last year, he likely could have hit better than that for next to no money. Zack Collins probably could have done better with EE's 181 plate appearances. So might have Yermin Mercedes. 

But once they committed to that kind of contract, they weren't just going to cut him or not play him.  They left Renteria out to dry with not much choice other than to play him most of the time. Sure, RR moved other guys through the DH spot, including Grandal when McCann caught. But EE still got 44 of 60 games to drag the Sox offense down. 

And at the end of the year, they had nothing to show for it. Didn't win a playoff series. Didn't help develop a longer term player. Didn't save money they could use for more productive things. 

I think it was that contract and experience that led Hahn not to go get another temporary bat to place in front of Andrew Vaughn, when Zack Collins might serve well as a DH until Vaughn covers his service time for an extra year of Sox control. 

At catcher, they signed Lucroy for depth, but only gave him a minor league deal so as not to block Collins from playing. 

On the pitching side, they did add Rodon, but only for $3M, because their hope is he's just a bridge until Kopech is ready. 

In short, I think the Sox decided this year to make sure their young trio of Vaughn, Collins, and Kopech will have no veterans in their way once service time issues are resolved.

The direction is that their assessment on DH's for over a decade has been so many standard deviations from the norm piss-poor that it's better NOT to waste any more money/resources on veteran free agents at this point.

Essentially, their incompetence finally forced a new plan or strategy, which is relying on the farm system instead.

 

The flaw in the Collins' logic is that the only way to find out if he can be an everyday player is to play him 70% of the time, because, if nothing else, he seems to really struggle coming off the bench because he's got that slider speed bat and so many issues mechanically.   The problem is that they can't really afford to waste the first 6-8 weeks of the season "figuring things out."    We had the same dilemma with Joe Borchard in the early 2000's, or Brian Anderson in 2006 (Balta's favorite topic, Rob Mackowiak.)

What realistically/likely will happen will be more Leury Garcia at DH, rotating regulars in and out, Grandal as well when the back-up's on the field.

Can you honestly picture TLR giving Collins those at-bats?   He's the ultimate, old school, veteran-reliant manager.   Guessing that a player similar to a Keith Moreland or Pearce or Smoak will show up on the waiver wire at the last minute and they will get the opportunity first.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by caulfield12

[Leonard Zelig]

12 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Call me crazy -- I'd entertain bringing in EE again ... I know he wants consistent AB's so he may just rather sit out than get a short leash/playing time, but I'd imagine you can get him for $2-3mm. He could fill in at DH for a month or two - if it's going well keep sprinkling him in, if it's not? Cut bait. Not saying I'd actually do the deal - I'd just consider it. 

 

: Ducks head: 

You are crazy.

[caulfield12]

43 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said:

You are crazy.

Stubbornly doubling down on mistakes more often results in...

 

Here's what doesn't make much sense...they could have had Mitch Moreland for $2.25 million as the primary DH and occasional 1B.

For his entire career, a 102 OPS.  That's all they have ever needed, really, just average or slightly above average production.

 

2018  102 OPS

2019  112

2020  139

 

Obviously, he's not going to reach those numbers again for a full season, but that would be almost the perfect transition to Vaughn, and a nice playoff-experienced veteran presence coming off the bench in the latter stages of the season.  Not to mention the fact that he's a better defender than Abreu.

Edited February 19, 2021 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

Edwin was a good gamble that really didn't cost the Sox jack shit even tho it came up snake eyes.  More like that please.

[poppysox]

22 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

Call me crazy -- I'd entertain bringing in EE again ... I know he wants consistent AB's so he may just rather sit out than get a short leash/playing time, but I'd imagine you can get him for $2-3mm. He could fill in at DH for a month or two - if it's going well keep sprinkling him in, if it's not? Cut bait. Not saying I'd actually do the deal - I'd just consider it. 

 

: Ducks head: 

It has gotten boring around here with no news...but really!

[Rounding_Third]

3 hours ago, poppysox said:

It has gotten boring around here with no news...but really!

As much as I've been against Vaughn being DH without more minors time, I've come to accept it and understand the Sox scouts' belief in him.  Also, that he's getting older and Covid robbed him of normal progression.  That all said, its hard to imagine him not exceeding EE's very low benchmark.  Sox are better by default, if nothing else.  If Vaughn just puts up mediocre stats, it'll be a huge DH improvement and who knows how high he could go.

Hope he's physically and especially mentally ready for the up's & downs of a season over 3 times longer and against an extended quality level that he's never experienced.  From Sox accolades, if anyone can succeed in what he's about to attempt, its him.  

[he gone.]

I'm not convinced Vaughn will have a good year at DH. My thesis on this is the Sox never produce from the DH spot. It's just science. Whoever we put there sucks. 

 

Since 2010 we have a combined -2.3 WAR out of our DH spot. You have to add the last two years of Thome to get to a positive WAR out of DH. Back to 2008. It's so laughably bad. 

 

Just joking really - Vaughn will be good - but I'm still not counting on much year 1 - we never seem to have rookies do well out of the gate and our DH spot is cursed. 

[Rounding_Third]

9 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I'm not convinced Vaughn will have a good year at DH. My thesis on this is the Sox never produce from the DH spot. It's just science. Whoever we put there sucks. 

 

Since 2010 we have a combined -2.3 WAR out of our DH spot. You have to add the last two years of Thome to get to a positive WAR out of DH. Back to 2008. It's so laughably bad. 

 

Just joking really - Vaughn will be good - but I'm still not counting on much year 1 - we never seem to have rookies do well out of the gate and our DH spot is cursed. 

I hear ya.  Look at it this way, what if EE had a 2020 line of; .250/.340/.440/.740, how much better would the Sox have been?  Are these #'s Vaughn could achieve this year?  Good chance, I think.  What's a really nice luxury, thanks to EE's terrible season,  is that he doesn't have to be great this year for the Sox to be even more dangerous.  

[hi8is]

Vaughn will surprise tons of folks. Cant wait for him.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Vaughn will surprise tons of folks. Cant wait for him.

The only thing Vaughn could do that would genuinely surprise me is come up and hit like Mazara. He's supposed to be an excellent, experienced, ready to go from the start hitter. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 2/17/2021 at 11:56 AM, VAfan said:

If you look at what Hahn and the Sox have done this offseason, I think the failed EE experiment last year, and to a lesser extent the Gio Gonzalez deal, led the Sox in a different direction.  For $13M (prorated though it was), the Sox got a .157/.250/.377 anchor in the middle of their lineup.  Had they brought up Andrew Vaughn last year, he likely could have hit better than that for next to no money. Zack Collins probably could have done better with EE's 181 plate appearances. So might have Yermin Mercedes. 

But once they committed to that kind of contract, they weren't just going to cut him or not play him.  They left Renteria out to dry with not much choice other than to play him most of the time. Sure, RR moved other guys through the DH spot, including Grandal when McCann caught. But EE still got 44 of 60 games to drag the Sox offense down. 

And at the end of the year, they had nothing to show for it. Didn't win a playoff series. Didn't help develop a longer term player. Didn't save money they could use for more productive things. 

I think it was that contract and experience that led Hahn not to go get another temporary bat to place in front of Andrew Vaughn, when Zack Collins might serve well as a DH until Vaughn covers his service time for an extra year of Sox control. 

At catcher, they signed Lucroy for depth, but only gave him a minor league deal so as not to block Collins from playing. 

On the pitching side, they did add Rodon, but only for $3M, because their hope is he's just a bridge until Kopech is ready. 

In short, I think the Sox decided this year to make sure their young trio of Vaughn, Collins, and Kopech will have no veterans in their way once service time issues are resolved.

I actually don't think they learned anything. It's been the team's M.O. to purchase old decaying vets in the past and they didn't learn anything from their failures. You even got one guy here saying they wish they did it more for depth and it's only money when clearly the money matters and they suck at finding veteran help in that price range . Apparently he doesn't know the difference between a starter and depth guys costs.

Rodon was a waste of $3M . But If he ends up starting for a few months before he gets injured without getting his head knocked from his neck maybe he will have earned it. Then he can be let go and the Sox can sign him next winter.

[Jack Parkman]

On 2/18/2021 at 1:16 PM, Texsox said:

And my point is I would rather they spend money than talent in acquiring players. 

I think you speak for most of the fanbase on that one. Myself included. However, we have to be realistic about what Jerry will actually do. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Edwin was a good gamble that really didn't cost the Sox jack shit even tho it came up snake eyes.  More like that please.

Have to disagree. If I could see that train wreck coming so should have the Sox . It was just like LaRoche. EE was just older . A couple of years of declining stats that anyone could see. $10M could've been given to another pitcher. You do that and use Collins or Mercedes maybe one of them actually produces. Now you have a better lineup that could have advanced farther in the playoffs. Then you also have more pitching (depending on what you used EE money for) and another good hitter heading into the current off season. A lot would've had to go right and we still might not have advanced in the playoff but maybe we would have won the division and home field for the 1st leg but at the very least we find out some things about Mercedes or Collins that we are still waiting to find out and maybe never find out.

It's one thing to wait until the very end of the off season and spend 2 or 3M on depth pieces. The Sox were tapped out after Rodon. $10M seems to be something we can't spend on just 1 player now. The Sox essentially have the same payroll as last year. They just swapped out some players for others signed a HOF manager and said OK Katz do your thing. Make our kids better.

On a weird side note when I was talking about Katz and the kid pitchers something popped into my head: The Katzenjammer Kids. I couldn't even remember what it was so I googled it.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Have to disagree. If I could see that train wreck coming so should have the Sox . It was just like LaRoche. EE was just older . A couple of years of declining stats that anyone could see. $10M could've been given to another pitcher. You do that and use Collins or Mercedes maybe one of them actually produces. Now you have a better lineup that could have advanced farther in the playoffs. Then you also have more pitching (depending on what you used EE money for) and another good hitter heading into the current off season. A lot would've had to go right and we still might not have advanced in the playoff but maybe we would have won the division and home field for the 1st leg but at the very least we find out some things about Mercedes or Collins that we are still waiting to find out and maybe never find out.

It's one thing to wait until the very end of the off season and spend 2 or 3M on depth pieces. The Sox were tapped out after Rodon. $10M seems to be something we can't spend on just 1 player now. The Sox essentially have the same payroll as last year. They just swapped out some players for others signed a HOF manager and said OK Katz do your thing. Make our kids better.

On a weird side note when I was talking about Katz and the kid pitchers something popped into my head: The Katzenjammer Kids. I couldn't even remember what it was so I googled it.

Go high with Cruz, or go value with Moreland....just stop going for the mid-tier declining veterans.

Still think they should have signed Odorizzi, but whatever.

If they had tried Collins/Mercedes, at least they would have some answers to their questions.   Even going back to Semien, they never gave him a full season to prove himself before cutting bait.  
 

If Mercedes was left-handed, he would be more valued by the organization.  Collins seems like the kind of hitter who could have had a decent career before the era of 95+ fireballers exposed his slider speed bat and hitch in his swing.

[South Side Hit Men]

I don't agree with the OP's premise the EE signing and subsequent failure to produce while simultaneously blocking of prospects led to a changed approach this season.

The Sox basically finished their off-season acquisitions early both years. COVID wasn't an factor last off-season. Vaughn (no minors) and Kopech (opt out) were the primary top prospects impacted for 2021 by the short 2020 season. They would have pulled the plug on Parrot by June if he didn't turn things around, though Parrot never "blocked" Collins. Collins' lack of development over four years, the fact he isn't considered a credible regular ML catcher or DH, and the Grandal signing blocked Collins beyond a PT role.

I don't believe the FO expected more than 80-85 wins entering 2020. If they were "all in" last year, they should have spent money on there two biggest holes, SP and RF (same holes entering the 2021 off-season), instead of veteran C and DH. Hopefully the key lesson learned was to not sign veterans to long term deals, though Tony likely went straight to Jerry for his pal Hendriks, when internal options would have allowed a proper RF and more SPs,  especially with the great deals available in January / February with a little patience.

[hi8is]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

He's supposed to be an excellent, experienced, ready to go from the start hitter. 

You and I know this but many fans either do not or underestimate him. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:54 PM, hi8is said:

Vaughn will surprise tons of folks. Cant wait for him.

A surprise can work both ways. So that makes you right no matter how he does.