Andrew Vaughn Article - 3B/OF and Opening Day considerations

[South Side Hit Men]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/andrew-vaughn-is-looking-to-make-the-leap-from-class-a-to-the-chicago-white-sox-designated-hitter-job-e2-80-94-though-tony-la-russa-cautions-e2-80-98he-e2-80-99s-in-pencil-e2-80-99-not-ink/ar-BB1dXor9

Three key snippets:

• “But when we start putting down the guys you expect to make the club, the guys that have an opportunity, one’s in pencil, one’s in ink,” La Russa said. “He’s in pencil.”

• La Russa likes that in addition to first base, Vaughn has worked at third base and in the outfield.

  “That helps you make the club when you can play in other places rather than the one place,”

• Vaughn said facing higher level pitching in Schaumburg last year really helped with his prep, including valuing every pitch and at bat.

[SoxSteve]

All the Vaughn trade talk 0n here was ridiculous. Hahn wasn’t going to trade another potential great hitter after the Tatis debacle. I think he signs an extension before game one. Hope it happens 

[Dominikk85]

Vaughn never was going to be traded anyway. Teams very rarely trade a top5 overall pick before he reaches the majors unless he flops in the minors and just gets dumped.

Sure if the Indians would have offered Justin Bieber maybe the sox would have done it but that never was realistic.

In the large majority of cases such a high pick will reach the majors for the club that drafted him unless he is very bad in the minors.

 

[ScootsMcGoots]

3 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Vaughn never was going to be traded anyway. Teams very rarely trade a top5 overall pick before he reaches the majors unless he flops in the minors and just gets dumped.

Sure if the Indians would have offered Justin Bieber maybe the sox would have done it but that never was realistic.

In the large majority of cases such a high pick will reach the majors for the club that drafted him unless he is very bad in the minors.

 

6 hours ago, SoxSteve said:

All the Vaughn trade talk 0n here was ridiculous. Hahn wasn’t going to trade another potential great hitter after the Tatis debacle. I think he signs an extension before game one. Hope it happens 

If Vaughn or Madrigal were traded I would wager you could add those to the list of the "one who shall not be named."

[CentralChamps21]

6 hours ago, SoxSteve said:

All the Vaughn trade talk 0n here was ridiculous. Hahn wasn’t going to trade another potential great hitter after the Tatis debacle. I think he signs an extension before game one. Hope it happens 

Unless Vaughn ends up being capable at 3B or RF, he'd have to put up a ridiculous OPS at a 1B/DH to have anywhere near the value of Tatis.

At this point it's too late to find another DH for this season, but earlier in the offseason, I'd have been willing to part with him for a top tier SP with 3+ years of control.

[South Side Hit Men]

26 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Unless Vaughn ends up being capable at 3B or RF, he'd have to put up a ridiculous OPS at a 1B/DH to have anywhere near the value of Tatis.

At this point it's too late to find another DH for this season, but earlier in the offseason, I'd have been willing to part with him for a top tier SP with 3+ years of control.

I just find it interesting La Russa mentioned 3B and RF for Vaughn, hopefully this can come to fruition at least on a PT basis.

Eloy is more valuable to protect from injury, especially at this juncture. Without viable alternatives, he's stuck in LF, which pleases him but not necessarily his pitching staff or White Sox trainers. Hope they can begin the transition to at least PT DH, and he escapes further injury during his "adventures" in Left Field. If Vaughn has any ability, he is already ahead of Eloy's current metrics.

Primary OF dWAR per 162 games

• Carlos Lee -1.0
• Manny Ramirez -1.8
• Eloy Jimenez -1.95
• Greg Luzinski -2.04 (Phillies stats, DH only here)

[fathom]

5 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Vaughn never was going to be traded anyway. Teams very rarely trade a top5 overall pick before he reaches the majors unless he flops in the minors and just gets dumped.

Sure if the Indians would have offered Justin Bieber maybe the sox would have done it but that never was realistic.

In the large majority of cases such a high pick will reach the majors for the club that drafted him unless he is very bad in the minors.

 

But could you imagine how popular the Sox would become with teen girls if they made this trade?

[35thstreetswarm]

17 minutes ago, fathom said:

But could you imagine how popular the Sox would become with teen girls if they made this trade?

Come on, Beebs fans are in their 20s and 30s now, boomer ?

[SoxSteve]

2 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Unless Vaughn ends up being capable at 3B or RF, he'd have to put up a ridiculous OPS at a 1B/DH to have anywhere near the value of Tatis.

At this point it's too late to find another DH for this season, but earlier in the offseason, I'd have been willing to part with him for a top tier SP with 3+ years of control.

I never said is Tatis.  I said it was ridiculous to even talk him getting traded in any realistic trade. Hahn would never do it after the Tatis debacle

[bmags]

Hope he's competent at 3rd. Injuries for us at 3rd or SS are stuff of nightmares.

[ChiSox59]

7 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Vaughn never was going to be traded anyway. Teams very rarely trade a top5 overall pick before he reaches the majors unless he flops in the minors and just gets dumped.

Sure if the Indians would have offered Justin Bieber maybe the sox would have done it but that never was realistic.

In the large majority of cases such a high pick will reach the majors for the club that drafted him unless he is very bad in the minors.

 

Justin Bieber would be an interesting return for Vaughn.  Replacement for Nancy?  

[ChiSox59]

Seriously tho, if Vaughn can adequately cover 3B and LF/RF that is huge.  I love roster flexibility, and Yoan unfortunately is always going to be a guy that gets nicked up.  

[Bob Sacamano]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Seriously tho, if Vaughn can adequately cover 3B and LF/RF that is huge.  I love roster flexibility, and Yoan unfortunately is always going to be a guy that gets nicked up.  

Agreed. Him filling in every once in a while at 3B to give Moncada some rest at DH would be awesome.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, SoxSteve said:

I never said is Tatis.  I said it was ridiculous to even talk him getting traded in any realistic trade. Hahn would never do it after the Tatis debacle

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball.  You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.  

[Dominikk85]

Also not doing a trade out of fear because you got burned would be very bad. There are lots of good reasons to keep vaughn (and also the other top prospects madrigal, kopech and crochet) but a trade in the past that went wrong is not one of them.

You can't let fear be your advisor as a GM, you gotta use your projection of the player, compare with surplus value and projection of the return and then make a decision.

And obviously there is a price for anyone, nobody is untouchable but it would be very unlikely to get fair value for a prospect like vaughn or even kopech.

At this point the sox should keep their advanced top prospects and sign one if they need him.

If vaughn gets traded it likely will be when he hits his second arb year as first basemen tend to be overpaid at that point due to the way arb works.

But I could also see vaughn becoming another konerko and stays with the sox for live to continue the great sox 1b history of the last 2+ decades (thomas, konerko, abreu).

Edited February 24, 2021 by Dominikk85

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball.  You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.  

I'll have to disagree with the lottery ticket analogy. Lottery tickets are not scouted by a highly respected guy and signed and then traded for because the other team values the skill set and the position he plays. Lottery tickets are a complete unknown, baseball players are not. You do not target specific lottery tickets because they are all the same. Lottery tickets are complete luck so you can't look stupid. Once again luck is the residue of design. The Padres luck was by design.

[Quin]

18 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball.  You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.  

I mean, we could have just taken on Shields entire contract and not thrown in an athletic LatAm signee.

[poppysox]

12 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/andrew-vaughn-is-looking-to-make-the-leap-from-class-a-to-the-chicago-white-sox-designated-hitter-job-e2-80-94-though-tony-la-russa-cautions-e2-80-98he-e2-80-99s-in-pencil-e2-80-99-not-ink/ar-BB1dXor9

Three key snippets:

• “But when we start putting down the guys you expect to make the club, the guys that have an opportunity, one’s in pencil, one’s in ink,” La Russa said. “He’s in pencil.”

• La Russa likes that in addition to first base, Vaughn has worked at third base and in the outfield.

  “That helps you make the club when you can play in other places rather than the one place,”

• Vaughn said facing higher level pitching in Schaumburg last year really helped with his prep, including valuing every pitch and at bat.

With the Covid diagnosis to Jose..splitting 1st. base and DH duties seem a likely use of both players.  Using Moncada as the prototype...I expect Jose to be back soon but very tired on a frequent basis.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'll have to disagree with the lottery ticket analogy. Lottery tickets are not scouted by a highly respected guy and signed and then traded for because the other team values the skill set and the position he plays. Lottery tickets are a complete unknown, baseball players are not. You do not target specific lottery tickets because they are all the same. Lottery tickets are complete luck so you can't look stupid. Once again luck is the residue of design. The Padres luck was by design.

Tatis was not on anyones top 25 list of international prospects that year.  Look over the last fifty years at the players outside the top 25 international players and how many made the major leauges...then look at the ones that went on to be the best player in baseball.   Heres the list:  Fernando Tatis, Jr.  If he were signed this year he wouldn't be in our top 50 prospects.  If by design you mean the White Sox went to the padres and said "you can take any one prospect outside our top 50"...It was a reasonable upside bet for them.  But it was really just horrible luck.  

[Bob Sacamano]

9 minutes ago, poppysox said:

With the Covid diagnosis to Jose..splitting 1st. base and DH duties seem a likely use of both players.  Using Moncada as the prototype...I expect Jose to be back soon but very tired on a frequent basis.  

Hes fine and doesn't have symptoms though. That would be opposite of Moncada. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

I mean, we could have just taken on Shields entire contract and not thrown in an athletic LatAm signee.

Throwing in Carlos Colmenarez in a trade almost never matters...there's new ones coming every year.  Even if its for something as grubby as money.  We can't be paralyzed because the powerball hit.  

[South Side Hit Men]

51 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball.  You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.  

That's nonsense. This is one of the few young high quality teenagers the Sox signed, due to their club and Jerry's aversion. He had the pedigree with a professional baseball player father, and was given a half a million by a Wall Street hedge fund while he was in A ball, because unlike the White Sox, they had enough reason to believe it would pay off big time based on their algorithm. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fernando-tatis-jr-340-million-investment-fund-padres-11613732572

The Padres and this hedge fund were playing at a level several levels higher. Analysis of data separates the haves from the have nots. While the Sox have attempted to improve in this area, they are still light years behind other clubs. Six years ago, they were further away, hence Fernando Tatis Jr. for James Shields.

Edited February 24, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[ChiSox59]

I hope the Sox don't break camp with Vaughn tho.  Get the extra year.  We can make-do for a few weeks without him.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Tatis was not on anyones top 25 list of international prospects that year.  Look over the last fifty years at the players outside the top 25 international players and how many made the major leauges...then look at the ones that went on to be the best player in baseball.   Heres the list:  Fernando Tatis, Jr.  If he were signed this year he wouldn't be in our top 50 prospects.  If by design you mean the White Sox went to the padres and said "you can take any one prospect outside our top 50"...It was a reasonable upside bet for them.  But it was really just horrible luck.  

Do you know why the Sox made that trade ? Lack of pitching depth after the season started but that was also apparent before the season started. Sound familiar ? And now you are also suggesting they do the same thing if necessary this season. You make your own luck. Lack of preparation caused a chain of events that led to the rebuild.

I can understand you calling Tatis luck a little bit, but the trade in itself was a blunder. It was typical Sox acquisition that only netted them an innings eater and not a pitcher who could propel a struggling team to greater heights.  A trade where the other team ate a lot of money for a guy who was a mistake for the Padres since they acquired him , a veteran who was sucking and sucked even worse once the Sox got him. He wasn't a difference maker. The majority of us hated the trade in the thread that followed the trade, not because of Tatis, but because Shields was so bad. How many times do the Sox have to keep making the same mistake over and over again before they realize that 34+  year old players who show multiple signs of decline aren't likely to improve ?

No one here can claim they hated the trade for Tatis because of Tatis but the majority of us here hated it because it was a bad trade from the get go and Tatis becoming a superstar pissed us off even more.

[Balta1701]

38 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

Hes fine and doesn't have symptoms though. That would be opposite of Moncada. 

Moncada was supposed to have very weak symptoms if at all also, but then it turned into long-COVID/brain fog for him over time. He hit .299 with an .843 OPS for the first 16 games of last year, including an 8 game hit streak, and then hit .188 over his next 36 games. 

There's literally no way to predict what the end result will be in any person, we've seen enough of this damn virus to understand that. Hopefully Jose has no internal damage and never really has anything to worry about, but you can be certain that's the case in like June.