Jimmy Cordero...the forgotten breakout candidate

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Vulture said:

I’d say it’s much more likely than that. None of those guys have Engel’s plus plus defense to fall back on, and none of them are behind injury prone stopgaps on the depth chart. Garcia lacks Engel’s power, the others lack his speed.

Leury, 26 mlb homers in 1613 PA  (about 10 if he played everyday)

Engel, 21 in 1140 PA    (about 11.5)

[roto]

13 hours ago, raBBit said:

Even Crochet has such a small hurdle to pass to accrue an additional year. That's not to say the Sox don't send these guys down during the year to "stretch them out" or something but it's a little curious that the Sox A) have basically said Crochet and Kopech will break with the team from camp and B) Vaughn is the DH in 2021. I think it's probably less about 
we're competing now and it's all "hands on deck" and more about avoiding any bad press/disruptions with the union coming into 2022.

Unless they get him an extension, Vaughn really shouldn't be in the MLB to start the year. Kopech hasn't pitched in competitive baseball in 2.5 years so it's entirely reasonable he doesn't break with the team. Crochet has a role and with Fry out he's kind of needed. I would have no qualms with him breaking with the team. 

I certainly wouldn't let the player's union dictate my roster/service time strategy and so would not advance either of these young pitchers to the active roster coming out of Spring Training.  It's not like you're going to get a union concession because you did.  I'd send them to Charlotte with instructions to use them together as a tandem starting pitcher until they were comfortable in that roll.  Lopez and Flores can serve as your long men until the young starters are ready or you need a fifth starter.  The Sox seem hellbent on bringing them north but no one knows if or how much they'll be needed during April and early May or if they can handle it.  Why would you burn service time on such a high risk strategy.  I don't get it.

[raBBit]

2 hours ago, roto said:

I certainly wouldn't let the player's union dictate my roster/service time strategy and so would not advance either of these young pitchers to the active roster coming out of Spring Training.  It's not like you're going to get a union concession because you did.  I'd send them to Charlotte with instructions to use them together as a tandem starting pitcher until they were comfortable in that roll.  Lopez and Flores can serve as your long men until the young starters are ready or you need a fifth starter.  The Sox seem hellbent on bringing them north but no one knows if or how much they'll be needed during April and early May or if they can handle it.  Why would you burn service time on such a high risk strategy.  I don't get it.

I don't either, but seems like that's the way the Sox are going.

[ChiSox59]

On 3/1/2021 at 9:34 AM, raBBit said:

Renteria absolutely burned Cordero. Cordero is a good teammate and team guy. I think his roster spot is interesting given he's out of options. I would send Kopech down and start with Cordero but that's just me.

@raBBit we sure Jimmy is out of options?  I thought he was too and that was the reason he was being passed around the league when we grabbed him, but MLBTR didn't list him as one of the Sox out options (Evan Marshall and Jose Ruiz) and Fangraphs also shows that he has an option left.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/03/out-of-options-2021.html

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/depth-charts/white-sox

[mqr]

On 2/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, pcq said:

Even with Jace Fry out there is only room for Cordero or Lopez not both. More likely that Cordero would be assigned to Charlotte as a starter. Fry being third bullpen lefty and injured might be headed for Charlotte. By May someone else could be ready for the IL. 

I'd MUCH rather have Cordero than lopez

[Vulture]

18 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Leury, 26 mlb homers in 1613 PA  (about 10 if he played everyday)

Engel, 21 in 1140 PA    (about 11.5)

Engel max velocity 113.5

garcia 108

since 2019: Garcia 60.9 PA/hr, Engel 37.8

[South Side Hit Men]

18 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Engel max velocity 113.5

garcia 108

since 2019: Garcia 60.9 PA/hr, Engel 37.8

I'd take Pederson for primary RF if given the chance, Engel would be my second choice over acquiring Eaton.

[caulfield12]

54 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I'd take Pederson for primary RF if given the chance, Engel would be my second choice over acquiring Eaton.

If you have Engel/Leury, Collins and Lucroy in the lineup... then you suddenly have a very meh offense. 

[South Side Hit Men]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If you have Engel/Leury, Collins and Lucroy in the lineup... then you suddenly have a very meh offense. 

The money would have been spent, just not on Eaton.

Not sure why you post two backup catchers as being simultaneously in any lineup. Don't see them both on the 26 man together beyond Grandal IR stints.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The money would have been spent, just not on Eaton.

Not sure why you post two backup catchers as being simultaneously in any lineup. Don't see them both on the 26 man together beyond Grandal IR stints.

I mean if Grandal or Eaton gets hurt... the composition changes dramatically without Vaughn up. 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I mean if Grandal or Eaton gets hurt... the composition changes dramatically without Vaughn up. 

Same if Anderson and Robert get hurt, Still doesn't mean Collins and Lucroy should EVER be in the same lineup together.

I do get your point regarding injuries and depth, two of the reasons Eaton and Grandal were not good signings to begin with.

[ChiSox59]

4 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Same if Anderson and Robert get hurt, Still doesn't mean Collins and Lucroy should EVER be in the same lineup together.

I do get your point regarding injuries and depth, two of the reasons Eaton and Grandal were not good signings to begin with.

In what world was Grandal not a good signing?  Can't wait to listen to this one.  

[South Side Hit Men]

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

In what world was Grandal not a good signing?  Can't wait to listen to this one.  

$18M+ for four years on a $125M payroll team in his declining age 30s seasons? Especially with greater needs in RF and SP the past two years and beyond, and the restrictions that contract puts on future teams?

Hard pass on Grandal, the conclusion of 29 other teams with that length and dollars. Definitely a head-scratcher deal to be the "biggest contract in club history".

[ChiSox59]

29 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

$18M+ for four years on a $125M payroll team in his declining age 30s seasons? Especially with greater needs in RF and SP the past two years and beyond, and the restrictions that contract puts on future teams?

Hard pass on Grandal, the conclusion of 29 other teams with that length and dollars. Definitely a head-scratcher deal to be the "biggest contract in club history".

Grandal is literally the perfect fit for this roster.  This team is full of free-swinging right handed hitters that are allergic to walking.  Grandal adds line-up balance, is easily our best OBP guy (Vaughn may ultimately pass him), has elite plate discipline and is one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game.  He accumulated 25.1 fWAR from 2015-2019 (avg. just over 5 fWAR per season), and his 162 game average for 2020 was 5.98 fWAR.  Yasmani Grandal is really, really good and is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR from a bad signing. The hate he gets from some on this board is just absolutely mind boggling.  

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Grandal is literally the perfect fit for this roster.  This team is full of free-swinging right handed hitters that are allergic to walking.  Grandal adds line-up balance, is easily our best OBP guy (Vaughn may ultimately pass him), has elite plate discipline and is one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game.  He accumulated 25.1 fWAR from 2015-2019 (avg. just over 5 fWAR per season), and his 162 game average for 2020 was 5.98 fWAR.  Yasmani Grandal is really, really good and is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR from a bad signing. The hate he gets from some on this board is just absolutely mind boggling.  

1. Assessing a poor contract / overpay does not equate to 'hate'.
2. The Sox are paying him for 2020-2023, not 2015-2019. Neither of the teams who had him during the past five years had any interest in signing him to 4 Years $73M, nor did the 27 other teams. A smart GM pays future production, not the rear-view mirror.
3. He couldn't beat out McCann for more than slightly half of playing time behind the plate, and pitchers significantly were better with McCann over Grandal behind the plate. 
4. You can't credibly state a catcher in his 30s will play 162 games with your extrapolation. He was on pace for 86 games caught last year, and the Sox will be fortunate if they can get a productive 300 games caught the rest of his deal. The Sox also better hope MLB does not go to automated strikes with the next CBA, which would render Grandal a below average defensive catcher when he is healthy enough to catch.

Look at other lengthy high priced deals to catchers in their 30s and report back with all the success stories, would love to hear about catchers retaining high levels of production and ability to continue to catch 120 plus games each season. Fisk is the only one I can recall, and the Sox capped out at $1.2M / year on his highest deal. The same Fisk La Russa stuck in LF until he was forced to walk back that debacle shortly before getting shitcanned.

Edited March 3, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[ChiSox59]

19 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

1. Assessing a poor contract / overpay does not equate to 'hate'.
2. The Sox are paying him for 2020-2023, not 2015-2019. Neither of the teams who had him during the past five years had any interest in signing him to 4 Years $73M, nor did the 27 other teams. A smart GM pays future production, not the rear-view mirror.
3. He couldn't beat out McCann for more than slightly half of playing time behind the plate, and pitchers significantly were better with McCann over Grandal behind the plate. 
4. You can't credibly state a catcher in his 30s will play 162 games with your extrapolation. He was on pace for 86 games caught last year, and the Sox will be fortunate if they can get a productive 300 games caught the rest of his deal. The Sox also better hope MLB does not go to automated strikes with the next CBA, which would render Grandal a below average defensive catcher when he is healthy enough to catch.

Look at other lengthy high priced deals to catchers in their 30s and report back with all the success stories, would love to hear about catchers retaining high levels of production and ability to continue to catch 120 plus games each season. Fisk is the only one I can recall, and the Sox capped out at $1.2M / year on his highest deal. The same Fisk La Russa stuck in LF until he was forced to walk back that debacle shortly before getting shitcanned.

You can literally run this analysis for every single FA ever signed.  FAs sign with the highest bidder 99% of the time.  So in that case, every other team balked at the ask, and then every player signed via FA is then overpaid per this line of thinking.

Grandal was exactly the guy he's always been last season.  That is, one of the very best and most valuable catchers in the game.  You can project regression all you want to fit your narrative, but no stats point towards Grandal regressing at this stage.  Most say 1 WAR is worth $7-10M on the open market.  Per that, Grandal is vastly underpaid.  I agree that $18.25M is a hefty sum, but if he's "overpaid" its only by a couple million a year, and that is what it requires to sign FAs.  

Grandal is really good.  He also brings a lot of things to this lineup that are lacking, and would be severely lacking without him.  He is quite literally the perfect complementary piece for this roster, and the fact that he is a catcher makes it all the better.  But its obvious you have some stupid vendetta against him, so I will just leave it at that.  I sure as shit an going to enjoy watching him play over whatever other garbage would be manning catcher if we didn't have him.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:34 AM, South Side Hit Men said:

$18M+ for four years on a $125M payroll team in his declining age 30s seasons? Especially with greater needs in RF and SP the past two years and beyond, and the restrictions that contract puts on future teams?

Hard pass on Grandal, the conclusion of 29 other teams with that length and dollars. Definitely a head-scratcher deal to be the "biggest contract in club history".

Lol, what a troll

[A-Train to 35th]

On 3/1/2021 at 2:03 PM, ChiSox59 said:

There is really no good reason for Kopech to be on the OD roster.  While you can make a "good reason" argument for Vaughn, I would also state that he should be in the minors until late April as well.  

#1 Reason.......https://www.talkingchop.com/2021/3/2/22310194/baseball-minor-league-season-delay

 

[ChiSox59]

19 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

#1 Reason.......https://www.talkingchop.com/2021/3/2/22310194/baseball-minor-league-season-delay

 

Are we referring to Kopech?  Still not a good reason.  Dude is at the absolute maximum throwing 100 innings this year.  I personally would like to have the option of him making starts for the Sox in August/September/October.  Therefore....send him to alternate site when ST ends.  Kid glove him in on short starts in AAA once that season starts until he works up to 4-5 innings, and bring him to the MLB rotation in late June / early July.  Then we get unimpeded Kopech in the rotation for the 2nd half of the season, and we get a year of control back, and we're not jerking around our highest upside SP by throwing him in the MLB pen.  

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Are we referring to Kopech?  Still not a good reason.  Dude is at the absolute maximum throwing 100 innings this year.  I personally would like to have the option of him making starts for the Sox in August/September/October.  Therefore....send him to alternate site when ST ends.  Kid glove him in on short starts in AAA once that season starts until he works up to 4-5 innings, and bring him to the MLB rotation in late June / early July.  Then we get unimpeded Kopech in the rotation for the 2nd half of the season, and we get a year of control back, and we're not jerking around our highest upside SP by throwing him in the MLB pen.  

This would be my plan for him.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, manbearpuig said:

This would be my plan for him.

BUT BUT BUT SERVICE TIME MANIPULATION BAD! NEED BEST TEAM ON FIELD DAY 1 OR THIS ALL IS SHAM! BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Kopech being on the OD roster and in the pen is quite literally the dumbest thing the Sox could do - almost as dumb as calling him up in August 2.5 years ago for no reason. Katz talking to Stoney and Jason the other day on the telecast about Kopech pitching out the pen just got my blood boiling.  It makes zero f'ing sense.  We need this dude making starts down the stretch of the season.  He has very limited innings this year.  He could be our 2nd best SP. Jacking him around in the pen is a joke.  

[Bob Sacamano]

57 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

BUT BUT BUT SERVICE TIME MANIPULATION BAD! NEED BEST TEAM ON FIELD DAY 1 OR THIS ALL IS SHAM! BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Kopech being on the OD roster and in the pen is quite literally the dumbest thing the Sox could do - almost as dumb as calling him up in August 2.5 years ago for no reason. Katz talking to Stoney and Jason the other day on the telecast about Kopech pitching out the pen just got my blood boiling.  It makes zero f'ing sense.  We need this dude making starts down the stretch of the season.  He has very limited innings this year.  He could be our 2nd best SP. Jacking him around in the pen is a joke.  

Unfortunately, it all comes down to having an 85-year old owner, who likely isn't around to care about who is on the team in 5-6 years from now.