Andrew Vaughn Hype Thread

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Where am I adding two weeks? If Vaughn spends a grand total of 15 days not on mlb roster (so likely even less than 15 games), the Sox get an additional year of control.  It would be silly not to do it.  The rules are the rules - the Sox didn't make them.

AV has 250 minor league at bats and didn't play last year.  He has absolutely no grounds for a grievance.  Nor does Kopech.  

Straight from MLB:

"Each Major League regular season consists of 187 days (typically 183 days prior to 2018), and each day spent on the active roster or injured list earns a player one day of service time. A player is deemed to have reached "one year" of Major League service upon accruing 172 days in a given year."

If the White Sox were worried about avoiding a Mariners-style grievance, all they have to do if they start him off the big league roster and call him up in late April is say "we were hoping to give him time against minor league pitching and give more at bats to Collins and Lucroy, but after they struggled the first couple weeks we had to try getting his bat in the lineup and we're excited to have him here". It doesn't even have to be true, they just have to say that publicly.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the White Sox were worried about avoiding a Mariners-style grievance, all they have to do if they start him off the big league roster and call him up in late April is say "we were hoping to give him time against minor league pitching and give more at bats to Collins and Lucroy, but after they struggled the first couple weeks we had to try getting his bat in the lineup and we're excited to have him here". It doesn't even have to be true, they just have to say that publicly.

I literally couldn't be less concerned about a grievance.  Its a complete non-issue with Vaughn, Kopech and even Crochet, tho I fully expect Crochet on the MLB roster. While I agree a similar statement like that will probably be made if the Sox elect to go that route, I don't think it matters.  AV has no grounds for a grievance.  

That all being said, seems likely that AV will be the OD DH and Kopech and Crochet will be in the pen.  Not how I would draw it up myself, but I am all about winning the f'ing division, so lets play ball! I think the equation is simple one, but I also understand wanting to have your best roster on the field day 1. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

I literally couldn't be less concerned about a grievance.  Its a complete non-issue with Vaughn, Kopech and even Crochet, tho I fully expect Crochet on the MLB roster. While I agree a similar statement like that will probably be made if the Sox elect to go that route, I don't think it matters.  AV has no grounds for a grievance.  

That all being said, seems likely that AV will be the OD DH and Kopech and Crochet will be in the pen.  Not how I would draw it up myself, but I am all about winning the f'ing division, so lets play ball! I think the equation is simple one, but I also understand wanting to have your best roster on the field day 1. 

I mean, the right decision is to extend him, but I do wonder if they offered him something like Eloy's extension if they might not hit a brick wall where his side says "you gave Robert significantly more money why are you lowballing us" and that winds up being the roadblock.

[Bob Sacamano]

30 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh?  

I think the point he is trying to make is if you use the excuse that they want to see him get minor league at bats for a couple weeks (just enough to get to that cutoff), you suddenly don't have that argument with the AAA season being delayed.

[Jerksticks]

I love the generally pro worker, pro players against  the greedy owners / pro service time manipulation worker screw job viewpoint.  ?????

Just classic. 

[SoxBlanco]

I've never been more confident in a player not becoming a bust. All you have to do is watch his at-bats. He gives a professional at-bat almost every time up. He has a great approach with a great eye, and he has such a nice, compact swing. He's not going to have the same issues with chasing sliders low and away like Eloy and Robert did when they first came up. I'm so excited about this kid. 

[hi8is]

3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

I've never been more confident in a player not becoming a bust. All you have to do is watch his at-bats. He gives a professional at-bat almost every time up. He has a great approach with a great eye, and he has such a nice, compact swing. He's not going to have the same issues with chasing sliders low and away like Eloy and Robert did when they first came up. I'm so excited about this kid. 

Yes.

[Chick Mercedes]

41 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

I've never been more confident in a player not becoming a bust. All you have to do is watch his at-bats. He gives a professional at-bat almost every time up. He has a great approach with a great eye, and he has such a nice, compact swing. He's not going to have the same issues with chasing sliders low and away like Eloy and Robert did when they first came up. I'm so excited about this kid. 

The biggest concerns I could come up with were his size and right handed status affecting his range at first, and also why  didn’t he rake in the minors. Otherwise his floor seems to be an above average first baseman/DH, upside indeterminate. Anywhere from Greg Walker to Encarnacion?

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Fernando Tatis Jr said:

The biggest concerns I could come up with were his size and right handed status affecting his range at first, and also why  didn’t he rake in the minors. Otherwise his floor seems to be an above average first baseman/DH, upside indeterminate. Anywhere from Greg Walker to Encarnacion?

He was coming off of a full college season, so a quick number of at bats after a break for the draft and signing was going to be a little challenging. 

[Rounding_Third]

43 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

I've never been more confident in a player not becoming a bust. All you have to do is watch his at-bats. He gives a professional at-bat almost every time up. He has a great approach with a great eye, and he has such a nice, compact swing. He's not going to have the same issues with chasing sliders low and away like Eloy and Robert did when they first came up. I'm so excited about this kid. 

I've been in the "he needs a season in Minors" camp but taking a long hard look at that now. Yes, just 2 games but he seems to be in control of every AB he's had.  I don't know if I'm more impressed with the way he adjusted on the HR, pulling his arms in on the inside pitch and keeping it very much fair to straight away LF or the way he's "yawned" at so many "go fishing" pitches from several different pitchers.

Said this recently but imo now, his lowest benchmark is just exceeding EE's 2020 stats.  At this point, that looks to be a blowout.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

White Sox have made the playoffs 10 times in 121 years and fans out here talking about sacrificing value this year because maybe in 6 years the team might be OK.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

White Sox have made the playoffs 10 times in 121 years and fans out here talking about sacrificing value this year because maybe in 6 years the team might be OK.

Peavey44?  Is that you?

[Dominikk85]

5 hours ago, Quin said:

I just keep think of how this was the year that the Cubs fought so hard to keep Kris Bryant for.

If he can help win now, I'd rather get the good will and keep a happy clubhouse culture in place. You look even better in light of places like the Cubs and Seattle

There was a lot what went wrong for Bryant though. It is probably even better for him now to be a FA later but it took injury, a bad year and the cubs faltering to make it work that way. 

An additional year can make a big difference as you are forced to make a decision a year later. 

7 So let's assume that it is Vaughns last year and the Sox have about one year in the window left. What are you doing then? You know you have to take a step back as several players are leaving so do you offer Vaughn a 7 year contract that could haunt you or do you let him walk and hurt the last year of the window. 

The Nats kinda had that decision with harper before 2019. They were nearing the end of the window and didn't want to commit 10 years to harper but they were not totally Done yet. They would have loved to have harper one more year for 2019. 

I know it worked out anyway for them but another harper year would have helped. 

And even if your window is over an Extra year can help as you can trade that player if he has contract left. 

Yes it could also happen that the white Sox miss the playoffs by one win (or only make the WC and get dropped there) due to the 14 days of Vaughn and that would suck, especially if you never win a WS after that but chances are it won't move the needle too much. 

[SoxBlanco]

What kind of extension would make sense for both sides? Something like the Eloy extension?

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

What kind of extension would make sense for both sides? Something like the Eloy extension?

I'd think that'd be exactly what the White Sox would push for if they were interested.

I don't know if Vaughn's side would look at that as an under-bid on the basis of "Robert's deal was larger", and I similarly don't know if the White Sox would offer that deal - if they are truly tapped out this year, or they don't have enough confidence in Vaughn due to the lack of a minor league season.

[hi8is]

49 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Peavey44?  Is that you?

No. Ray ray can form complete sentences.

Edited March 3, 2021 by hi8is

[hi8is]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'd think that'd be exactly what the White Sox would push for if they were interested.

I don't know if Vaughn's side would look at that as an under-bid on the basis of "Robert's deal was larger", and I similarly don't know if the White Sox would offer that deal - if they are truly tapped out this year, or they don't have enough confidence in Vaughn due to the lack of a minor league season.

They can easily backload an extension so that this year and next are modest payouts.

[fathom]

With Tony seemingly being against having 3 catchers on the roster, it seems like a given Vaughn makes Opening Day roster (unless they sign Yoenis)

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, the right decision is to extend him, but I do wonder if they offered him something like Eloy's extension if they might not hit a brick wall where his side says "you gave Robert significantly more money why are you lowballing us" and that winds up being the roadblock.

Luis was projected to play gold glove caliber defense in CF as well as being a very good hitter. I hope Vaughn and his camp understands the difference. 

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, the right decision is to extend him, but I do wonder if they offered him something like Eloy's extension if they might not hit a brick wall where his side says "you gave Robert significantly more money why are you lowballing us" and that winds up being the roadblock.

Well, if Vaughn's agency can't see the valuation difference between a 5 tool gold glove caliber CF and and undersized 1B/DH, then that conversation should end right there.  I personally am not really in a hurry to extend Vaughn.  We can have him for 6.91 seasons.  

[Vulture]

6 hours ago, The Grinder said:

I'm skeptical as we have had so many sure things only to become big busts. C'mon AV pull through for us!!

The only comparable “sure thing” talents Sox have had any time recently are Eloy, Moncada and Robert none of whom appear to be busts. Trying to think who you could be thinking of...Beckham? He was a high end prospect but I think a notch below. I just have a hard time imagining Vaughn busting. He’s basically everything you’d want in a hitter. He already has better plate discipline than anyone we’ve got

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, Vulture said:

The only comparable “sure thing” talents Sox have had any time recently are Eloy, Moncada and Robert none of whom appear to be busts. Trying to think who you could be thinking of...Beckham? He was a high end prospect but I think a notch below. I just have a hard time imagining Vaughn busting. He’s basically everything you’d want in a hitter. He already has better plate discipline than anyone we’ve got

Well you've got to give the last #3 pick/sure thing on that list, Rodon.

[Vulture]

I was leaving pitchers out of it. It’s hard to say how much Rodons failings have had to do with elbow issues. I’m going to wait to see how he rebounds after TJS rehabilitation before I consider him a bust anyway

[ChiSox59]

20 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I was leaving pitchers out of it. It’s hard to say how much Rodons failings have had to do with elbow issues. I’m going to wait to see how he rebounds after TJS rehabilitation before I consider him a bust anyway

I mean, I like Carlos.  But he's an unmitigated bust for the Sox at this point. He could still end up being a serviceable MLB pitcher down the line, but I don't think he's ever going to live up to his pre-draft status at this point.  

[VAfan]

I don't think the arguments on either side of this are slam dunks. 

Sure, the Sox want to go for it this year, but we're talking 14 games, some of which Vaughn wouldn't play in even if he's on the roster. For example, if the backup catcher is used, Grandal could DH, or play first with Abreu DH'ing. Out of the first 14 games, that could be as many as 4 games.  And if Collins is on the roster, he is likely to play instead of Vaughn against some right handed pitchers throughout the year. That could be 5 of the 10 games. And you could play Leury Garcia just to give him a couple games with Eloy DH'ing. In other words, even if Vaughn starts the season in Chicago, just normal usage suggest he's not going to play more than 130 or so games regardless.

Meanwhile, here's the White Sox 3-5 year window.  If you wait a few days, Vaughn adds his name to Luis Robert as the only guy under control through 2027.  

But on the flip side, the fact that the Sox will have so few of their current players under control through 2027 makes you wonder if it's worth trying to hold him through that year. It could be a completely different team by then.  The Kris Bryant example is instructive, because the Cubs may still have Bryant, but not much else. 

Purely as a fan, I want Vaughn on the opening day roster because he's better than the alternatives, and I want to send the message that we're going for it, regardless of contractual issues.  But I can see the control argument as well. 

As for extending a contract to him, it should be less about control and more about whether you think his bat will play so well that you could get him at a bargain now. Then you have cost certainty and can put any savings into helping the team elsewhere. Personally, I'm going to leave that up to the White Sox.