Andrew Vaughn Hype Thread

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

 

If it has no bearing, then it's whatever. I just don't trust MLB to not try and pull a fast one and say "Well, we're having a minor league season, so you get service time when you're called up."

It's all about 172 days of service. Those are the rules. They get a full season if they play in the majors for 172 days in 2021. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It's all about 172 days of service. Those are the rules. They get a full season if they play in the majors for 172 days in 2021. 

So if we hold him down one week, we get the extra year?

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

So if we hold him down one week, we get the extra year?

Generally speaking, yes. But there used to be strange rules in place where players not on the 40 man had to spend 20 days in minors if optioned. 

[ChiSox59]

46 minutes ago, Quin said:

Start Vaughn on the MLB roster. Waiting 6 weeks would be asinine.

IT.IS.15.DAYS.STOP.SAYING.6.WEEKS.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

IT.IS.15.DAYS.STOP.SAYING.6.WEEKS.

stop it with your logic, sir.

[Quin]

45 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

IT.IS.15.DAYS.STOP.SAYING.6.WEEKS.

Yes, I realize this now thanks to Jimmy's non-shouty explanation. I'm used to dudes having to actually be down in the minors for some arcane reason.

Let me put in terms you can understand:

MLB.HAS.DUMB.RULES.SOMETIMES.THEY.ARE.SHIT.MY.BAD.FOR.MISINTERPRETING.THEM.MLB.STILL.LOVES.FUCKING.OVER.MINOR.LEAGUE.PLAYERS.ESPECIALLY.WHEN.IT.COMES.TO.ARTIFICIALLY.MOVING.TIMELINES.SUCH.AS.THE.INTERNATIONAL.SIGNING.DATE.

[Rounding_Third]

9 minutes ago, Quin said:

Yes, I realize this now thanks to Jimmy's non-shouty explanation. I'm used to dudes having to actually be down in the minors for some arcane reason.

Let me put in terms you can understand:

MLB.HAS.DUMB.RULES.SOMETIMES.THEY.ARE.SHIT.MY.BAD.FOR.MISINTERPRETING.THEM.MLB.STILL.LOVES.FUCKING.OVER.MINOR.LEAGUE.PLAYERS.ESPECIALLY.WHEN.IT.COMES.TO.ARTIFICIALLY.MOVING.TIMELINES.SUCH.AS.THE.INTERNATIONAL.SIGNING.DATE.

.COM?

[Quin]

Just now, Rounding_Third said:

.COM?

.NET

[pcq]

11 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

.COM?

Service time is not measured by minor league games. You can fulfill your team's service needs while polishing balls for the Schaumburg Flyers and missing a baker's dozen Sox contests. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 3/3/2021 at 8:57 AM, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Except that there are legit reasons to keep Vaughn, Kopech and Crochet down.  Not all situations are similar (bryant). 

Yeah, and I think this would be my preference. I would have preferred to have acquired SP depth this offseason, and to stretch out Crochet in MiLB, WHILE gaining the extra control. I would have preferred that Kopech find the strike zone in MiLB, WHILE gaining the extra control. And as far as Vaughn goes, I put exactly zero weight into what a youngster does in the thin air of Arizona.

 

But, since the plan seems to be hope/wish/pray that Kopech/Cease/Rodon/Lopez magically stop walking the yard, AND hope/wish/pray that Crochet's body isn't made of glass, I guess we should be OK with this org shortening the window and losing controllable years from those two. BUT, for Vaughn, I don't think he'll be the difference in making/not making the playoffs, in all honesty*. So, for me, either he signs an extension, or he goes to the alternative site for 15 days.

 

 

 

*I think this team's playoff hopes hinge entirely on whether or not Cease/Lopez/Rodon/Kopech can throw enough strikes, so that they can throw enough innings, so that games can be turned over to our potent bullpen in generally advantageous situations. If they continue to walk the yard, there isn't a DH in MLB who can outhit Cease's/Lopez's/Rodon's/Kopech's histories of giving the game away via their walk rates. Period.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

15 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The Dodgers sent down Gavin Lux just last year and were criticized for it. Every team does it because it's smart. 7 years of control is better than 6 years of control. It's pretty much a fact. 

And he was actually much worse than everyone was expecting, like Jo Adell...Casey Mize, etc.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, and I think this would be my preference. I would have preferred to have acquired SP depth this offseason, and to stretch out Crochet in MiLB, WHILE gaining the extra control. I would have preferred that Kopech find the strike zone in MiLB, WHILE gaining the extra control. And as far as Vaughn goes, I put exactly zero weight into what a youngster does in the thin air of Arizona.

 

But, since the plan seems to be hope/wish/pray that Kopech/Cease/Rodon/Lopez magically stop walking the yard, AND hope/wish/pray that Crochet's body isn't made of glass, I guess we should be OK with this org shortening the window and losing controllable years from those two. BUT, for Vaughn, I don't think he'll be the difference in making/not making the playoffs, in all honesty*. So, for me, either he signs an extension, or he goes to the alternative site for 15 days.

 

 

 

*I think this team's playoff hopes hinge entirely on whether or not Cease/Lopez/Rodon/Kopech can throw enough strikes, so that they can throw enough innings, so that games can be turned over to our potent bullpen in generally advantageous situations. If they continue to walk the yard, there isn't a DH in MLB who can outhit Cease's/Lopez's/Rodon's/Kopech's histories of giving the game away via their walk rates. Period.

That said, unless they substantially suppress the characteristics of the game ball, Vaughn's going to be to good for 25-35, touching 40 homers per season on a pretty consistent basis...regardless of what happens in March/Arizona.

Pete Alonso with slightly less homers but a better average and OBP/walk rate seems pretty likely, although obviously not guaranteed, and obviously Alonso had his share of struggles statistically (analytics-wise, he was better in some ways, without the results to show it.)

[Two-Gun Pete]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

That said, unless they substantially suppress the characteristics of the game ball, Vaughn's going to be to good for 25-35, touching 40 homers per season on a pretty consistent basis...regardless of what happens in March/Arizona.

Pete Alonso with slightly less homers but a better average and OBP/walk rate seems pretty likely, although obviously not guaranteed, and obviously Alonso had his share of struggles statistically (analytics-wise, he was better in some ways, without the results to show it.)

I understand where you're coming from.

But when I look at the younger SPs stats and projections, I get nervous. I mean, look at Cease's BB/9. In the era of Three True Outcomes, i don't know why this org didn't seriously consider the rotation a problem. 

I dont get why, after watching the rotation wilter at towards the end of 2020, they didn't  add a better SP than Rodon, in addition to Lynn. I dont know why they believe in Cease/Lopez/Rodon, when they've underperformed for years now.

 

On the other side of the coin, I feel pretty good about the lineup, with or without Vaughn. I happen to believe in Abreu/Jimenez/Moncada/Anderson/Grandal and others. I happen to think that there's enough depth in quality in the lineup that this team shouldn't be desperate to hang their playoff hopes on a rookie.

So, I don't feel the need to rush to get Vaughn here, unless he signs an extension. And again, this team made the playoffs, despite having a turd of a RFer, and a turd of a DH last season.

They bounced out of the playoffs, because the rotation was 2 Vets, a rookie, and a pile of walk machines.

[Rounding_Third]

21 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

.COM?

 

9 hours ago, pcq said:

Service time is not measured by minor league games. You can fulfill your team's service needs while polishing balls for the Schaumburg Flyers and missing a baker's dozen Sox contests. 

Okay but you missed your target.

[Dominikk85]

The delayed Milb start will obviously have no implications on getting that extra year because sitting around for two weeks won't hurt his development. 

However it could have an effect on keeping him down until super 2 deadline because with no minor leagues in until the second week of May keeping him down that long wouldn't be great. 

[Rounding_Third]

27 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I understand where you're coming from.

But when I look at the younger SPs stats and projections, I get nervous. I mean, look at Cease's BB/9. In the era of Three True Outcomes, i don't know why this org didn't seriously consider the rotation a problem. 

I dont get why, after watching the rotation wilter at towards the end of 2020, they didn't  add a better SP than Rodon, in addition to Lynn. I dont know why they believe in Cease/Lopez/Rodon, when they've underperformed for years now.

 

On the other side of the coin, I feel pretty good about the lineup, with or without Vaughn. I happen to believe in Abreu/Jimenez/Moncada/Anderson/Grandal and others. I happen to think that there's enough depth in quality in the lineup that this team shouldn't be desperate to hang their playoff hopes on a rookie.

So, I don't feel the need to rush to get Vaughn here, unless he signs an extension. And again, this team made the playoffs, despite having a turd of a RFer, and a turd of a DH last season.

They bounced out of the playoffs, because the rotation was 2 Vets, a rookie, and a pile of walk machines.

I couldn't agree more about Rodon & Lopez but Cease still has a very high ceiling.  He hasn't even totaled a full season in appearances.  He's got filthy stuff & Katz stated he's working with improving Cease's delivery in order to gain more control by utilizing his lower body.  One 2020 stat that stands out to me is that 10 of his 34 BB have come after 1-2 counts.  He needs to learn to trust his stuff and just put batters away.  Once he gets over that hurdle,  the sky's the limit.  What a fantastic delivery he has ( video from recent post last week); so smooth and powerful!

[turnin' two]

22 hours ago, Quin said:

Yes, I realize this now thanks to Jimmy's non-shouty explanation. I'm used to dudes having to actually be down in the minors for some arcane reason.

Let me put in terms you can understand:

MLB.HAS.DUMB.RULES.SOMETIMES.THEY.ARE.SHIT.MY.BAD.FOR.MISINTERPRETING.THEM.MLB.STILL.LOVES.FUCKING.OVER.MINOR.LEAGUE.PLAYERS.ESPECIALLY.WHEN.IT.COMES.TO.ARTIFICIALLY.MOVING.TIMELINES.SUCH.AS.THE.INTERNATIONAL.SIGNING.DATE.

This is the worst "my bad" I've ever seen.

[Quin]

14 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

This is the worst "my bad" I've ever seen.

Clearly I wasn't trying to be gracious in defeat. I was wrong about how MLB is handling service time and changed once presented with facts, said I would do as such, then got the staccato/capslock treatment. 

At least I was willing to admit defeat once presented with actual evidence, versus people who have dug in their heels and decided to troll the board for years with their same bad takes. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, Rounding_Third said:

I couldn't agree more about Rodon & Lopez but Cease still has a very high ceiling. 

Sure. You know who else had a "very high ceiling?" You know who else had "filthy stuff?"

Rodon & Lopez. But, neither mastered the rudimentary basic of being a regular & reliable thrower of strikes.

I get that fans get the vapors over velo & stuff. But all that, & $5 will only buy you a ride on the CTA, if you can't regularly throw it for strikes.

Looking at Cease's numbers, he's never been good at avoiding walks. Whats also worrying is that the other two pieces of Three True Outcomes, K/9 & HR/9, are all getting shittier over the years. To me, this is a real fucking problem for this team. IMO, handing him a rotation spot without competition is like handing a 5 year old a loaded gun.

 

To bring it back to the topic of this thread, this lineup isn't the offensively challenged lineups when Carlos Quentin had to rescue the team as a rookie. And for as awesome as Vaughn may be, we aren't that desperate for his bat, just yet. And he doesn't play a premium defensive position, and the guy in front of him just won the league MVP. So him going off to the alternate site shouldn't be a travesty, and nor should it cost this team the playoffs.

We need reliable IP out of the rotation, so that this bullpen and this lineup can go win the fucking pennant for us. Everything else is mere commentary, IMO.

[elrockinMT]

Andrew Vaughn will  probably be the starting DH this year and you can take that to the bank

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

Andrew Vaughn will  probably be the starting DH this year and you can take that to the bank

I will probably take it to the bank. ?

[Dominikk85]

Doesn't mean much but spencer torkelson so far is hitless in 11 PAs with 3 walks and 5 Ks. 

Not quite comparable to Vaughn who is a year older and least had a season in A ball and a full alternate site season but so far Vaughn looks better than torkelson. 

Tork still has more raw power potential but Vaughn could have a better hit tool, he struck out less in college too (75k, 123 bb vs 104 Ks and 110 bb in about 100 less PAs for Tork). 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

I think Vaughn is on the OD roster regardless of an extension.  

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I think Vaughn is on the OD roster regardless of an extension.  

I just responded to a post about Lucroy in the other thread, but if Vaughn is on the OD roster, how does Lucroy factor to catch often?

[Dominikk85]

4 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

I just responded to a post about Lucroy in the other thread, but if Vaughn is on the OD roster, how does Lucroy factor to catch often?

He will probably catch like 30 games, la Russa played molina 130+ games at catcher and will do so with grandal