3/6 | White Sox vs Cleveland | 2:05PM CT | WTAM 1100

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, NCsoxfan said:

Yermin and Vaughn 

Might as well throw LuCroy in the mix too.

[michelangelosmonkey]

Just now, ron883 said:

Stop it. Yermin has done enough to deserve a shot. There is easily enough room while Vaughn stays down to accumulate time for the extra year. Quit hating on Yermin. 

Where am I hating??  He was 24 and released by Baltimore.   AT 25 he had an OK year for Winston Salem...but 2.5 years older than league average.   He was indeed GREAT in 2019.  But then COVID.   Whatcha going to do?   I said I thought he was very interesting...but I don't see where he fits on the roster.   I'm fine with him being up for the two weeks Vaughn needs to be down to buy back the year...but then what?   Honestly you can't take him over Vaughn or Collins...there's just not a spot for him.  

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Collins is who you trade for a good reliever in July.

Reliever is unlikely to be a big need come July unless a lot of things go wrong.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Dude, yes he's 2 years older and a righty.  The rest of your statement is just made up.

Bud...where have you ever seen anything about Yermin's defense in a positive way?  He averaged 20 passed balls a year in the minors and I outlined his minors in the last post.    Collins...has had accolades throughout college including the Johnny Bench award,...was top ten draft pick,  A league all-star, AA league all-star...lead all minors with walks at AA...put up a .951 OPS at AAA...and had twenty really bad at bats in the majors before ending the season with 20 great at bats.  Honestly the Collins hate around here is second only to the JR hate. Its fine to say you like Yermin...I like him too...but there is nothing I said untrue.   

[Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar]

3 hours ago, ron883 said:

It's so strange that Coop was anti curve ball. Cease, Giolito and ReyLo all has good looking curves early on. Having them abandon it is just strange. 

I've posted this many times, but in case anybody wants some curve ball porn...

There's more video of his curveballs in the link below. Hopefully we see more of this. 

https://www.soxmachine.com/2020/07/17/this-is-what-dylan-ceases-curveball-is-supposed-to-do/

I understand you are pointing out Ceases curve ball being good, but c’mon let’s be honest...he was bad because he couldn’t get his fastball over and that’s not Coopers fault.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I’ve been a doubter but my god, if Yermin rakes again this spring you’ve got to give him a shot.  Even if it’s just for a couple weeks while you keep Vaughn down for control reasons. Have to admit here is a real circularity to the anti-Yermin argument.  “He’s not good enough to get called up...because if he were good enough, he’d be called up.” 

I like it but he hit neck and neck with Robert in AA/AAA when they were there at the same time and with a much better walk rate and people call what Robert did in 2019 across 3 levels phenomenal. Now of course Robert had great fielding and base running too and was younger, but we are just talking about hitting. Go check I'm not exaggerating . Batting averages, OBP, OPS both killed Birmingham and Charlotte.

I understand if you have doubted in the past if you have legit concerns about his fielding but as far as hitting goes the only hurdle he hasn't conquered is MLB and late 2019 and all of 2020 the Sox never gave him a shot.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I like it but he hit neck and neck with Robert in AA/AAA when they were there at the same time and with a much better walk rate and people call what Robert did in 2019 across 3 levels phenomenal. Now of course Robert had great fielding and base running too and was younger, but we are just talking about hitting. Go check I'm not exaggerating . Batting averages, OBP, OPS both killed Birmingham and Charlotte.

I understand if you have doubted in the past if you have legit concerns about his fielding but as far as hitting goes the only hurdle he hasn't conquered is MLB and late 2019 and all of 2020 the Sox never gave him a shot.

I 100% agree that he can hit.   I'm just not convinced he will hit as good as Vaughn...or catch as well as Collins...are be a clubhouse god like Abreu.  Honestly the Larry Himes move would be...trade Abreu at his peak...put Vaughn at 1B, Collins as back up catcher and Yermin as full time DH.  

[Rounding_Third]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Bud...where have you ever seen anything about Yermin's defense in a positive way?  He averaged 20 passed balls a year in the minors and I outlined his minors in the last post.    Collins...has had accolades throughout college including the Johnny Bench award,...was top ten draft pick,  A league all-star, AA league all-star...lead all minors with walks at AA...put up a .951 OPS at AAA...and had twenty really bad at bats in the majors before ending the season with 20 great at bats.  Honestly the Collins hate around here is second only to the JR hate. Its fine to say you like Yermin...I like him too...but there is nothing I said untrue.   

Not pitching Yermin or hating Collins here.  Just saying that placing their MiLB career stats side by side, defensively they average out fairly evenly, some better for Yermin and some better for Collins.  Offensively, Yermin has been consistently better by a wide margin.  College stats mean very little after draft day. Collins is a perfect example as he struggled mightily for 3 years in the minors before his one and only very good 2019.  Then fell back again with the Sox.  How is that a "better track record"?

If you're going use the term "better track record"  at least use their minors stats before college stats.  Minors much more relevant and recent.  You like to "cherry pick" stats to back your view even when they are much more irrelevant than stats that go against you view.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I 100% agree that he can hit.   I'm just not convinced he will hit as good as Vaughn...or catch as well as Collins...are be a clubhouse god like Abreu.  Honestly the Larry Himes move would be...trade Abreu at his peak...put Vaughn at 1B, Collins as back up catcher and Yermin as full time DH.  

I'm not convinced of that either  which is why I had hoped he was given a legit look before now.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Not pitching Yermin or hating Collins here.  Just saying that placing their MiLB career stats side by side, defensively they average out fairly evenly, some better for Yermin and some better for Collins.  Offensively, Yermin has been consistently better by a wide margin.  College stats mean very little after draft day. Collins is a perfect example as he struggled mightily for 3 years in the minors before his one and only very good 2019.  Then fell back again with the Sox.  How is that a "better track record"?

If you're going use the term "better track record"  at least use their minors stats before college stats.  Minors much more relevant and recent.  You like to "cherry pick" stats to back your view even when they are much more irrelevant than stats that go against you view.

When you say Collins "struggled mightly for 3 years in the minors" WTF?  At 21 he put up an .880 OPS while a year and half younger than league average at A+, at 22 he put up an .820 OPS.   At 23 he put up a .780 OPS in impossible to hit Birmingham, a year younger than league average at 24 he put up a .951 OPS in AAA.   Yermin was CUT BY BALTIMORE AT 24.  Age matters in the minors.   At 25 Yermin had a .840 OPS at A+ when he was 2.5 years older than league average.    He legit was great in 2019 in Birmingham (nearly 2.5 years older than league average) and Charlotte where his OPS was a bit better than Collins though being two years older.  That's his track record.  Glad you think I cherry pick my stats...please explain exactly what you are doing.     

[MeanJoeCrede]

Did anybody get a pitch count on Lopez today? Looks to me from GameDay like he only threw 8 piches total today. First pitch outs to the first 5 batters and a 3 pitch strikeout to end the second

[michelangelosmonkey]

17 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm not convinced of that either  which is why I had hoped he was given a legit look before now.

2020 was so frustrating in this. I raged against the EE signing just because we needed to find out if Collins or Yermin could really hit.    But they didn't...and now we are in a fix...and honestly giving Yermin 15 days to  "prove himself" in the majors while buying out Vaughn's year will prove nothing.   I'm sure he still has an option left so letting him hit everyday in Charlotte and put up an 1100 OPS will get some GM's attention at the trade deadline.  

[NCsoxfan]

11 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

When you say Collins "struggled mightly for 3 years in the minors" WTF?  At 21 he put up an .880 OPS while a year and half younger than league average at A+, at 22 he put up an .820 OPS.   At 23 he put up a .780 OPS in impossible to hit Birmingham, a year younger than league average at 24 he put up a .951 OPS in AAA.   Yermin was CUT BY BALTIMORE AT 24.  Age matters in the minors.   At 25 Yermin had a .840 OPS at A+ when he was 2.5 years older than league average.    He legit was great in 2019 in Birmingham (nearly 2.5 years older than league average) and Charlotte where his OPS was a bit better than Collins though being two years older.  That's his track record.  Glad you think I cherry pick my stats...please explain exactly what you are doing.     

I just care who will hit better this year. If it’s Collins then great. If it’s Yermin then great. To me I don’t care how old they are, big deal. Comparing Collins stats a similar age to Yermin tells me nothing for who will outperform this season. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

41 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Not pitching Yermin or hating Collins here.  Just saying that placing their MiLB career stats side by side, defensively they average out fairly evenly, some better for Yermin and some better for Collins.  Offensively, Yermin has been consistently better by a wide margin.  College stats mean very little after draft day. Collins is a perfect example as he struggled mightily for 3 years in the minors before his one and only very good 2019.  Then fell back again with the Sox.  How is that a "better track record"?

If you're going use the term "better track record"  at least use their minors stats before college stats.  Minors much more relevant and recent.  You like to "cherry pick" stats to back your view even when they are much more irrelevant than stats that go against you view.

What are you using to determine that he struggled mightily for 3 years? 

[Rounding_Third]

44 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

When you say Collins "struggled mightly for 3 years in the minors" WTF?  At 21 he put up an .880 OPS while a year and half younger than league average at A+, at 22 he put up an .820 OPS.   At 23 he put up a .780 OPS in impossible to hit Birmingham, a year younger than league average at 24 he put up a .951 OPS in AAA.   Yermin was CUT BY BALTIMORE AT 24.  Age matters in the minors.   At 25 Yermin had a .840 OPS at A+ when he was 2.5 years older than league average.    He legit was great in 2019 in Birmingham (nearly 2.5 years older than league average) and Charlotte where his OPS was a bit better than Collins though being two years older.  That's his track record.  Glad you think I cherry pick my stats...please explain exactly what you are doing.     

Those OPS's are HEAVILY bloated with BB's.  He walked a lot, great, ho hum.  But at the same time, he hit .244, .224. & .234 with pretty ugly K-rates. His Slg wasn't bad over that time but he struggled mightily to make contact.  Yermin's slightly better total OPS is based on hits.  An OPS matters how it was constructed.

My statement of "struggled mightily" is out of context when you mentioned his lofty college numbers. his 1st 3 minors season dropped mightily from college stats.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Rounding_Third

[michelangelosmonkey]

17 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Those OPS's are HEAVILY bloated with BB's.  He walked a lot, great, ho hum.  But at the same time, he hit .244, .224. & .234 with pretty ugly K-rates. His Slg wasn't bad over that time but he struggled mightily to make contact.  Yermin's slightly better total OPS is based on hits.  An OPS matters how it was constructed.

My statement of "struggled mightily" is out of context when you mentioned his lofty college numbers. his 1st 3 minors season dropped mightily from college stats.

Bloated with walks??  OPS doesn't matter how its constructed...walks are a valuable skill.  Go find me a useless 100 walks a year guy.   Still I hope they are both great. 

[NCsoxfan]

Does anyone think from a purely hitting perspective that Collins would outperform Yermin?

[Rounding_Third]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Bloated with walks??  OPS doesn't matter how its constructed...walks are a valuable skill.  Go find me a useless 100 walks a year guy.   Still I hope they are both great. 

Are you saying that 20 BB = 20 singles?

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Are you saying that 20 BB = 20 singles?

Its a mathematical formula.  

[tray]

Back in the 60's the late 60's the White Sox had a short pudgy catcher named Smoky Burgess.  (to digress, I recall Jack Brickhouse announcing him and Floyd Robinson).

Anyway., by that time in his career (late 30's) Burgess was used by the White Sox almost exclusively as a pinch hitter (seldom as a catcher and no DH way back then).

His role became so clearly defined that he always stayed in the pen to warm up pitchers unless and until he got called up in the late innings to pinch hit.

Long story short, Smoky was known as one of the most clutch hitters in baseball. I  I could see Mercedes in the role. a DH and Mr clutch pinch hitter. He was pretty clutch today  when he came up with the bases loaded, nearly hit a grand slam, and racked up a three  quick rbi.

Collins and Lucroy  can hit but they don't have the same pazzazz and presence that  Mercedes does at the plate.  Clutch hitting is a real thing and an important quality, at least from my perspective.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

2020 was so frustrating in this. I raged against the EE signing just because we needed to find out if Collins or Yermin could really hit.    But they didn't...and now we are in a fix...and honestly giving Yermin 15 days to  "prove himself" in the majors while buying out Vaughn's year will prove nothing.   I'm sure he still has an option left so letting him hit everyday in Charlotte and put up an 1100 OPS will get some GM's attention at the trade deadline.  

As did I at the time. I did not like EE's declining stats. Reminded me too much of LaRoche only like 4 years older. They weren't going to win a World Series in 2020 without more pitching so giving Yermin and/or Collins more time in the bigs  could've left more money to acquire pitching and led to one or the others emergence.

[tray]

During the White Sox 2005 playoff run including the World Series, how many games did AJ not start in? 

I'm asking, because it seems to me that the primary value of a back-up catcher during the play-offs (absent some unexpected injury to the starting catcher) may well be as a

pinch hitter. LaRussa would never start Collins or Mercedes or even Lucroy in a Wold Series game over Grandal, for example. But oif a situation came up where the Sox could use a blast to get back in the game. it would be great to have Mercedes step up to the plate for Poquito (Madrigal) or Eaton or Leury.

[Vulture]

4 hours ago, tray said:

Back in the 60's the late 60's the White Sox had a short pudgy catcher named Smoky Burgess.  (to digress, I recall Jack Brickhouse announcing him and Floyd Robinson).

Anyway., by that time in his career (late 30's) Burgess was used by the White Sox almost exclusively as a pinch hitter (seldom as a catcher and no DH way back then).

His role became so clearly defined that he always stayed in the pen to warm up pitchers unless and until he got called up in the late innings to pinch hit.

Long story short, Smoky was known as one of the most clutch hitters in baseball. I  I could see Mercedes in the role. a DH and Mr clutch pinch hitter. He was pretty clutch today  when he came up with the bases loaded, nearly hit a grand slam, and racked up a three  quick rbi.

Collins and Lucroy  can hit but they don't have the same pazzazz and presence that  Mercedes does at the plate.  Clutch hitting is a real thing and an important quality, at least from my perspective.

Back then the Sox also had nine pitchers pitch 95% of the innings. So they could carry six guys on the bench. There’s no room for a pinch hitter like that in today’s game

[pcq]

8 hours ago, Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar said:

I understand you are pointing out Ceases curve ball being good, but c’mon let’s be honest...he was bad because he couldn’t get his fastball over and that’s not Coopers fault.

I thought he was bad because his curve was never in the zone. Coop was always reducing guys' breaking balls because of concerns over elbow stress. Right or wrong. Another gimme is when guys like Crochet and Hunter Greene aim for 98 instead of 102 they have better command and less shoulder stress. It took Sandy Koufax three years to figure that out. 

[tray]

3 hours ago, Vulture said:

Back then the Sox also had nine pitchers pitch 95% of the innings. So they could carry six guys on the bench.

I asked:  "During the White Sox 2005 playoff run including the World Series, how many games did AJ not start? "

The point of asking was that often a back-up catcher may not play a major role defensively in a protracted play-off series where a team has a premier starting catcher.

Under those circumstances, a back-up catcher's ability to pinch hit, especially if he is a pinch hitter with power, could be of value.  

I value clutch pinch hitting especially in late innings. Some players are better suited to it then others.

Vulture said:  There’s no room for a pinch hitter like that in today’s game.

I don't know about today's game, but there was room for Mercedes might in yesterday's game.

Edited March 7, 2021 by tray