Best White Sox Team Of All Time

[Soxsi75]

Recently the White Sox website had a computer game tournament in trying to determine the greatest White Sox team of all time.  Where as I'm sure all of us White Sox fans will agree that the idea of The 1972 White Sox , the team that won it, being the best White Sox team of all time is ludicrous, I decided to take a shot at it myself.  Here are my top 3 in DESCENDING order.

3. 2005. Where as I'm sure I'll get a lot of people disagreeing with me that I'm not putting them number 1, mainly because of their amazing postseason, I put them number 3 because the two ahead of them simply had stronger offensive teams, to go with great pitching, then this one had. But I don't want this piece on the great 2005 team to be bashing them, so I'm focusing here on what they could do. They won 99 games, the most in the league, and never spent a single day out of first place all season. They tied for the league lead in pitching and led in ERA+ when adjusted to their ballpark. They had power, as they hit 200 homers, speed, great defense, ( their infield defense of Crede, Uribe and Iguchi were outstanding, as well Rowand in center,) four outstanding starters, and a deep bullpen that actually had two great closers over the course of the season. They also had that incredible string of having a lead in the first 37 games of the season and of course won the World Series, with their amazing post season run. 

2. 1994. This was the year that never was. The strike ended this season in August, but I said even then, that this was the best White Sox team I ever saw. They had won the division in 1993 with the best pitching in the AL, excellent defense, (Ventura, Guillen, Karkovice and Lance Johnson were among the best in the league at their positions,) good speed, and above average offense, mainly because of Frank Thomas, the best White Sox hitter in franchise history. But in the playoffs, Toronto's game plan was to simply not give Thomas anything to hit. He actually went 1-1 with 4 walks in Game 1. Now the sabergeeks may have been impressed with this line, but it's what Toronto wanted to do and it worked for them. So in 1994, the White Sox picked up Julio Franco, who had 100 RBI's by August, so teams couldn't pitch around Thomas like this anymore. So now they were 4th in runs scored, as compared to 7th the year before and better than the 2005 team that finished 9th in runs scored. They also led the league in pitching in 1994 again, by a wider margin, as their team ERA was more than a quarter of a run lower than the second best team! The 2005 team only tied for the league lead as stated above. Ozzie Guillen, who played for this team and managed the 2005 team, said himself that the 1994 team was more talented. The only problem this team had, was a strange June slump where closer Roberto Hernandez seemed to go through a period where he was tipping his pitches. His history says he would have corrected that by the end of the year however. As far as the postseason  goes, we'll never know. But this great team shouldn't be penalized because they never got the chance.

1. 1917. This team probably doesn't get the notoriety that maybe it should because of the members of this team that were also on the 1919 team. (A year which needs no explanation.) However, if you look at the facts, this was the best team in White Sox history. To begin with, this team had 3 players who are in the Hall Of Fame who were part of the "Clean Sox." Eddie Collins, Ray Schalk and pitcher Red Faber. If you then take the players who were later banned because of what happened in 1919, "Shoeless" Joe Jackson would have unquestionably been a Hall Of Famer. Pitcher Eddie Cicotte also probably would have been. That's 5 Hall Of Famers on one team. Then throw in Buck Weaver, Happy Felsch, and another pitcher, Lefty Williams, who almost certainly would have been All-Stars if an All Star game existed then, as they all were amongst the best in the game at their positions. They were considered by some to be the best team ever assembled at the time. Now statistically, my Brother In Law correctly pointed out that it gets difficult to compare players from different eras because of the advancement of statistics of today. So the only way to compare this, is to compare how they did against their competition at the time. And this is what this team against their own competition. They won 100 games, the only White Sox team to do so, and did it in only the 154 games they played then. They lead the league in runs scored AND pitching. The only White Sox team to do so. And of course did win the World Series. 

After this it gets a bit more difficult. My gut reaction is to put the 1983 team fourth. They won 99 games, led the league in runs scored and was 3rd in pitching. Then comes the 1959 team fifth. 

[CentralChamps21]

The 1919 team was probably the best team the Sox ever had.

[turnin' two]

This year's team.  Book it.

 

At least until next year.

Edited March 7, 2021 by turnin' two

[South Side Hit Men]

@Soxsi75, couldn't find the criteria the simulated game uses to rate players. Did you come across anything? 

Also, while the goal of the playoffs is to win the World Series, before wild cards solid teams never had a chance stuck behind 100 win Yankees teams. It's clear based on WAR the 1917 team was head and shoulders above all other White Sox teams. The 1972 team was the second worst in the bracket.

The 2020 team had the best hitting, their team didn't have the pitching to compete with the best teams in baseball. You saw it with your own eyes, but yeah, "Ricky's Fault" for the assembled staff. Keuchel was hammered hard both games against the 1972 team, wonder if subbing out Parrot and Mazara with McCann and Engel would have made a difference in the simulation.

Teams ranked by total bWAR/pWAR as follows (All seasons under 162 games including 2020 WAR amounts have been pro-rata share adjusted based on a uniform 162 game season):

1. 1917 (100-54 vs. Pythagorean 101-53) 24.8 bWAR + 28.5 pWAR = 53.3 Team WAR World Series Champion
2. 1993 (94-68 vs. Pythagorean 92-70) 29.2 bWAR + 19.3 pWAR = 48.5 Team WAR
3. 1954 (94-60 vs. Pythagorean 98-56) 28.7 bWAR + 18.9 pWAR = 47.6 Team WAR
4. 1964 (98-64 vs. Pythagorean 99-63) 28.6 bWAR + 18.8 pWAR = 47.4 Team WAR
5. 2000 (95-67 vs. Pythagorean 92-70) 28.3 bWAR + 18.9 pWAR = 47.2 Team WAR
6. 2005 (99-63 vs. Pythagorean 91-71) 20.0 bWAR + 26.1 pWAR = 46.1 Team WAR World Series Champion
7. 2008 (89-74 vs. Pythagorean 89-74) 19.2 bWAR + 25.9 pWAR = 45.1 Team WAR
8. 1983 (99-63 vs. Pythagorean 96-66) 26.2 bWAR + 18.0 pWAR = 44.2 Team WAR
9. 2020 (35-25 vs. Pythagorean 36-24) 34.6 bWAR + 9.2 pWAR = 43.8 Team WAR
10. 1977 (90-72 vs. Pythagorean 88-74) 22.9 bWAR + 20.0 pWAR = 42.9 Team WAR
11. 1906 (93-58 vs. Pythagorean 90-61) 24.7 bWAR + 17.6 pWAR = 42.3 Team WAR World Series Champion
12. 1959 (94-60 vs. Pythagorean 86-68) 26.3 bWAR + 15.9 pWAR = 42.2 Team WAR AL Pennant
13. 2006 (90-72 vs. Pythagorean 88-74) 20.3 bWAR + 21.8 pWAR = 42.1 Team WAR
14. 1990 (94-68 vs. Pythagorean 87-75) 23.0 bWAR + 15.0 pWAR = 38.0 Team WAR
15. 1972 (87-67 vs. Pythagorean 81-73) 11.6 bWAR + 26.0 pWAR = 37.6 Team WAR
16. 1936 (81-70 vs. Pythagorean 79-72) 21.7 bWAR + 11.9 pWAR = 33.6 Team WAR

PS - The Fernando Tatis Jr. "Teams which shall not be named" lest they win the tournament:

1919 (88-52 vs. Pythagorean 84-56) 31.8 bWAR + 16.4 pWAR = 48.2 Team WAR AL Pennant (Third best White Sox team all time, behind 1917 and 1993).

1994 (67-46 vs. Pythagorean 69-44) 31.4 bWAR + 23.8 pWAR = 55.2 Team WAR Season ended due to strike because Jerry was broke and needed to crush the union. The greatest adjusted WAR in White Sox history. 

Editorial Note: I don't necessarily agree with the premise that adjusting WAR for unplayed games (2020 COVID, 1994 Strike, etc.) on a pro-rata basis (162/games played times unadjusted WAR) is how the season would play out, but there is no other method to compare apples to apples. Same thoughts for saying Grandal's or any other player's WAR would have been XXX based on their 2020 WAR times (162/60). What we can relatively safely deduce is the 1919 and 1994 teams had a strong probability to finish among the Top 3-5 teams in White Sox history if they played a full season (1919 Spanish Flu, 1994 Strike).

Edited March 7, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[runtheballdown]

1917 for sure. Not sure why the Sox didn’t celebrate this team in 2017. Somebody wake reinsdorf up

[NWINFan]

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

The 1919 team was probably the best team the Sox ever had.

Yes, this team was probably the best in franchise history, and obviously things would have been so different if the 1919 team won like it should have. I've met some Reds fans who say their team was better, but that's bullshit. It is sad. The 1919 club set the Sox back decades, and, in my book, the club still hasn't recovered. But I agree with another poster. The 1994 club had more overall talent than the 2005 squad. I can' t think of 1994 without feeling real pain.

[Timmy U]

I can only go by teams that I was alive for.  I would go 1. 1994 2. 1993 3. 1983 4. 2005 5. 2000 ( before entire pitching staff got injured) 6. 2020 7. 1972 8. 1990 ( my personal favorite team) 9. 1977 (but among the most fun) 10. 1991.

Obviously 1917 is one of the great teams in AL history, but I was not alive to see them.  Plus, the games were not televised.

[Jerksticks]

I love pointing to Guillén, Karkovice, Ventura & Lance Johnson as evidence 1994 was maybe the most talented team ever.  
 

Cool.  Now replace their offensive numbers with Anderson, Grandal, Moncada and Robert ??

 

People still have no idea what they are about to see.  Flush those 20’s and 2000’s Yankees down the toilet.  It’s over.  This will be the greatest collection of baseball talent the game has ever seen.  Our worst players, Eaton & Madrigal, will probably put up a .360 OBP with their eyes closed.  
 

I’m actually hoping Adolfo gets the call at the ASB to replace Eaton and puts up a quick .950 OPS

[Soxsi75]

14 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

@Soxsi75, couldn't find the criteria the simulated game uses to rate players. Did you come across anything? 

Also, while the goal of the playoffs is to win the World Series, before wild cards solid teams never had a chance stuck behind 100 win Yankees teams. It's clear based on WAR the 1917 team was head and shoulders above all other White Sox teams. The 1972 team was the second worst in the bracket.

The 2020 team had the best hitting, their team didn't have the pitching to compete with the best teams in baseball. You saw it with your own eyes, but yeah, "Ricky's Fault" for the assembled staff. Keuchel was hammered hard both games against the 1972 team, wonder if subbing out Parrot and Mazara with McCann and Engel would have made a difference in the simulation.

Teams ranked by total bWAR/pWAR as follows (All seasons under 162 games including 2020 WAR amounts have been pro-rata share adjusted based on a uniform 162 game season):

1. 1917 (100-54 vs. Pythagorean 101-53) 24.8 bWAR + 28.5 pWAR = 53.3 Team WAR World Series Champion
2. 1993 (94-68 vs. Pythagorean 92-70) 29.2 bWAR + 19.3 pWAR = 48.5 Team WAR
3. 1954 (94-60 vs. Pythagorean 98-56) 28.7 bWAR + 18.9 pWAR = 47.6 Team WAR
4. 1964 (98-64 vs. Pythagorean 99-63) 28.6 bWAR + 18.8 pWAR = 47.4 Team WAR
5. 2000 (95-67 vs. Pythagorean 92-70) 28.3 bWAR + 18.9 pWAR = 47.2 Team WAR
6. 2005 (99-63 vs. Pythagorean 91-71) 20.0 bWAR + 26.1 pWAR = 46.1 Team WAR World Series Champion
7. 2008 (89-74 vs. Pythagorean 89-74) 19.2 bWAR + 25.9 pWAR = 45.1 Team WAR
8. 1983 (99-63 vs. Pythagorean 96-66) 26.2 bWAR + 18.0 pWAR = 44.2 Team WAR
9. 2020 (35-25 vs. Pythagorean 36-24) 34.6 bWAR + 9.2 pWAR = 43.8 Team WAR
10. 1977 (90-72 vs. Pythagorean 88-74) 22.9 bWAR + 20.0 pWAR = 42.9 Team WAR
11. 1906 (93-58 vs. Pythagorean 90-61) 24.7 bWAR + 17.6 pWAR = 42.3 Team WAR World Series Champion
12. 1959 (94-60 vs. Pythagorean 86-68) 26.3 bWAR + 15.9 pWAR = 42.2 Team WAR AL Pennant
13. 2006 (90-72 vs. Pythagorean 88-74) 20.3 bWAR + 21.8 pWAR = 42.1 Team WAR
14. 1990 (94-68 vs. Pythagorean 87-75) 23.0 bWAR + 15.0 pWAR = 38.0 Team WAR
15. 1972 (87-67 vs. Pythagorean 81-73) 11.6 bWAR + 26.0 pWAR = 37.6 Team WAR
16. 1936 (81-70 vs. Pythagorean 79-72) 21.7 bWAR + 11.9 pWAR = 33.6 Team WAR

PS - The Fernando Tatis Jr. "Teams which shall not be named" lest they win the tournament:

1919 (88-52 vs. Pythagorean 84-56) 31.8 bWAR + 16.4 pWAR = 48.2 Team WAR AL Pennant (Third best White Sox team all time, behind 1917 and 1993).

1994 (67-46 vs. Pythagorean 69-44) 31.4 bWAR + 23.8 pWAR = 55.2 Team WAR Season ended due to strike because Jerry was broke and needed to crush the union. The greatest adjusted WAR in White Sox history. 

Editorial Note: I don't necessarily agree with the premise that adjusting WAR for unplayed games (2020 COVID, 1994 Strike, etc.) on a pro-rata basis (162/games played times unadjusted WAR) is how the season would play out, but there is no other method to compare apples to apples. Same thoughts for saying Grandal's or any other player's WAR would have been XXX based on their 2020 WAR times (162/60). What we can relatively safely deduce is the 1919 and 1994 teams had a strong probability to finish among the Top 3-5 teams in White Sox history if they played a full season (1919 Spanish Flu, 1994 Strike).

This is VERY interesting to see and thanks for sharing!!! I did not come across anything to show they rated the players for the simulated game. I'm especially interested to see that the 1954 and 1964 teams are ranked 3rd and 4th respectively. Neither of these teams obviously made the playoffs but of course things were different then on who qualified and they both certainly would have in todays format. As far as the 1954 team, the White Sox always had strong teams throughout the 50's, and in some ways the main reason they won in 1959 was the Yankees had an off year. Therefore, I've wondered and tried to look into, was the 1959 team really the best team they had in the 50's? As far as 1964, this period always also really interested me because from 1963-65, the White Sox won 94, 98, and 95 games.......but had nothing to show for it because again, only the pennant winner made the playoffs in those days. If they had todays playoff format then, who knows? We might have a statue of Gary Peters or Joel Horlen in or outside the ballpark. Instead, young White Sox fans may have never heard of those guys. On another side note to White Sox history of that time period, if not for the ridiculously horrible trades Veeck and Greenberg made prior to 1960, the White Sox DEFINITELY  would have won 2 more pennants in that era, and possibly 3. Give us Norm Cash, Johnny Callison and Earl Battey in our lineup, like they should have been, and we DEFINITELY win it in 1964 and 1967. (That would make Boston's "Impossible Dream" more like the possible nothing instead!) And possibly 1965. Take Battey and Mincher out of their lineup, do the Twins still beat us out? But that's all speculative. 

[Soxsi75]

17 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I can only go by teams that I was alive for.  I would go 1. 1994 2. 1993 3. 1983 4. 2005 5. 2000 ( before entire pitching staff got injured) 6. 2020 7. 1972 8. 1990 ( my personal favorite team) 9. 1977 (but among the most fun) 10. 1991.

Obviously 1917 is one of the great teams in AL history, but I was not alive to see them.  Plus, the games were not televised.

1990 Was a personal favorite of mine too!! Fun year!! And thanks for mentioning 2000!! You're right about their entire pitching staff getting injured. I believe that is one of the most underrated White Sox teams in history. I even argued that on this board in the past!! So thank you!!

[Soxsi75]

17 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

I love pointing to Guillén, Karkovice, Ventura & Lance Johnson as evidence 1994 was maybe the most talented team ever.  
 

Cool.  Now replace their offensive numbers with Anderson, Grandal, Moncada and Robert ??

 

People still have no idea what they are about to see.  Flush those 20’s and 2000’s Yankees down the toilet.  It’s over.  This will be the greatest collection of baseball talent the game has ever seen.  Our worst players, Eaton & Madrigal, will probably put up a .360 OBP with their eyes closed.  
 

I’m actually hoping Adolfo gets the call at the ASB to replace Eaton and puts up a quick .950 OPS

I certainly hope you're right my friend!!!

[RagahRagah]

It's hard to narrow down that criteria with so few good teams in history. I'm not sure what you would use to quantify that but I guess 2005 IMO because the pitching was pure ddominance. The hitting wasn't prolific but you have to remember that that team's hitting was clutch on an otherworldly level and that is the kicker for me. Now if Frank would have been healthy all season? That aspect might have been highlighted significantly more. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by RagahRagah

[South Side Hit Men]

41 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

This is VERY interesting to see and thanks for sharing!!! I did not come across anything to show they rated the players for the simulated game. I'm especially interested to see that the 1954 and 1964 teams are ranked 3rd and 4th respectively. Neither of these teams obviously made the playoffs but of course things were different then on who qualified and they both certainly would have in todays format. As far as the 1954 team, the White Sox always had strong teams throughout the 50's, and in some ways the main reason they won in 1959 was the Yankees had an off year. Therefore, I've wondered and tried to look into, was the 1959 team really the best team they had in the 50's? As far as 1964, this period always also really interested me because from 1963-65, the White Sox won 94, 98, and 95 games.......but had nothing to show for it because again, only the pennant winner made the playoffs in those days. If they had todays playoff format then, who knows? We might have a statue of Gary Peters or Joel Horlen in or outside the ballpark. Instead, young White Sox fans may have never heard of those guys. On another side note to White Sox history of that time period, if not for the ridiculously horrible trades Veeck and Greenberg made prior to 1960, the White Sox DEFINITELY  would have won 2 more pennants in that era, and possibly 3. Give us Norm Cash, Johnny Callison and Earl Battey in our lineup, like they should have been, and we DEFINITELY win it in 1964 and 1967. (That would make Boston's "Impossible Dream" more like the possible nothing instead!) And possibly 1965. Take Battey and Mincher out of their lineup, do the Twins still beat us out? But that's all speculative. 

Wasn't cognizant of the White Sox until I was 5 in 1975. Remember my grandfather bitching about Al Lopez not starting Bill Pierce in the World Series. Looking at the stats, not sure why Wynn started three times in a six game series, pitched poor (5.54 ERA, 1.77 WHIP). Perhaps starting Pierce in Game 4 and letting Wynn go Game 5 with 4 days rest would have made a difference.

Are you referring to the trade below? Going to look up Veeck's thoughts in his two books to see his perspective. Merkin named Greenberg the Sox' fourth best GM, though without any context other than referencing the 1959 Pennant.  Were there any other egregious trades?

Quote

December 6, 1959

Traded Norm Cash, Bubba Phillips and John Romano to the Cleveland Indians. Received Dick Brown, Don Ferrarese, Minnie Minoso and Jake Striker.

People will look at playoff results to rank one team better, but the regular season is the test of a champion. I care more about the regular season, most seasons ignore the post-season. Any team can get hot for two weeks, doesn't mean teams like the two Marlins teams (franchise never won a division, but two World Series) or other poor teams (2006 Cardinals 83-79) who made it via a watered down format were anywhere close to being the best team.

Baseball should revert to two divisions in each league, would be similar to the 1 team in 8 that qualified for the first five decades. Sadly, owners want 14-16 + teams in, rendering the season a glorified exhibition season to seed playoff teams, like the NBA and NHL.

[poppysox]

18 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

I love pointing to Guillén, Karkovice, Ventura & Lance Johnson as evidence 1994 was maybe the most talented team ever.  
 

Cool.  Now replace their offensive numbers with Anderson, Grandal, Moncada and Robert ??

 

People still have no idea what they are about to see.  Flush those 20’s and 2000’s Yankees down the toilet.  It’s over.  This will be the greatest collection of baseball talent the game has ever seen.  Our worst players, Eaton & Madrigal, will probably put up a .360 OBP with their eyes closed.  
 

I’m actually hoping Adolfo gets the call at the ASB to replace Eaton and puts up a quick .950 OPS

Very insightful !

[Rounding_Third]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Very insightful !

Except for Eaton having a .360+ OBP and then hoping he gets replaced with a minor league player.  Head scratcher there!  Did I read that right?

[Jerksticks]

12 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Except for Eaton having a .360+ OBP and then hoping he gets replaced with a minor league player.  Head scratcher there!  Did I read that right?

Yes, you did. 

[Rounding_Third]

5 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Yes, you did. 

Alrighty then

[zisk]

1972 and 1977 were the funnest teams ever.

[Soxsi75]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Wasn't cognizant of the White Sox until I was 5 in 1975. Remember my grandfather bitching about Al Lopez not starting Bill Pierce in the World Series. Looking at the stats, not sure why Wynn started three times in a six game series, pitched poor (5.54 ERA, 1.77 WHIP). Perhaps starting Pierce in Game 4 and letting Wynn go Game 5 with 4 days rest would have made a difference.

Are you referring to the trade below? Going to look up Veeck's thoughts in his two books to see his perspective. Merkin named Greenberg the Sox' fourth best GM, though without any context other than referencing the 1959 Pennant.  Were there any other egregious trades?

People will look at playoff results to rank one team better, but the regular season is the test of a champion. I care more about the regular season, most seasons ignore the post-season. Any team can get hot for two weeks, doesn't mean teams like the two Marlins teams (franchise never won a division, but two World Series) or other poor teams (2006 Cardinals 83-79) who made it via a watered down format were anywhere close to being the best team.

Baseball should revert to two divisions in each league, would be similar to the 1 team in 8 that qualified for the first five decades. Sadly, owners want 14-16 + teams in, rendering the season a glorified exhibition season to seed playoff teams, like the NBA and NHL.

This was one of the bad trades, but it wasn't the worst. It was another one made that off-season that was worse and flat out the worst trade in franchise history. We traded Earl Battey and Don Mincher to the Twins franchise, (still Washington at this time,) for Roy Sievers. Now many people say the Sosa/Bell trade is the worst in history. But that trade at least made sense at the time. George Bell was a proven run producer and we needed one to hit behind Thomas. Sammy Sosa at this time wasn't. He later became one after hitting the drug store, and that's why people say that's the worst. But this Sievers trade made ZERO sense. Roy Sievers was a slugging, lead footed first baseman. Trouble is, we already had one of those in Ted Kluczewski. And there was no DH in 1960, so they both couldn't play. We in turn gave up a couple of future all stars in Battey and Mincher, and more importantly, gave Minnesota 1/4 of their regular lineup that won the pennant for them over us in 1965. 

And I agree with you, and have always agreed with you, about the regular season being more important. The test of time, every day for 6 months, is more important than getting hot for a couple of weeks. 

[Vulture]

Seivers had 150 and 144 ops+ In his two seasons, both above .900, with the Sox though. Then they traded him for John Buzhardt. They got more war from Seivers and Buzhardt than the twins got from Michner and Battey in half the combined years

[Buehrle>Wood]

I think 2003 had the best roster ever assembled by a Sox team. 2006 not far behind. 2003 was a pretty hateable team though. 2006 they couldn't do enough and neither of course won anything 

[Soxsi75]

46 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Seivers had 150 and 144 ops+ In his two seasons, both above .900, with the Sox though. Then they traded him for John Buzhardt. They got more war from Seivers and Buzhardt than the twins got from Michner and Battey in half the combined years

Not the way to look at it. I'm talking baseball here, not WAR. It was a bad trade for the reasons I mentioned. And the Twins certainly got plenty out of Mincher and Battey considered they both helped them win a pennant, that they very well might not have won if they weren't there. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Soxsi75

[Tony]

21 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

I think 2003 had the best roster ever assembled by a Sox team. 2006 not far behind. 2003 was a pretty hateable team though. 2006 they couldn't do enough and neither of course won anything 

I put 2006 on the shoulders of Mark Buehrle and Ozzie. 

For whatever reason, Buehrle was just terrible that year and could never put it together. The entire starting staff was a disappointment that year but if he could have had a normal Buehrle year, they probably win 2-3 more games. 

Second, the way CF was handled was just a joke, and really believe the play of Mackowiak and the drama surrounding the CF position all season cost them significantly as well. 

That team was loaded on paper, couldn't put it together. 

[Vulture]

17 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

Not the way to look at it. I'm talking baseball here, not WAR. It was a bad trade for the reasons I mentioned. And the Twins certainly got plenty out of Mincher and Battey considered they both helped them win a pennant, that they very well might not have won if they weren't there. 

According to that logic trading anyone that ends up on a WS team is a bad trade even if you got better players back. No way Klu would have put up consecutive .900 ops+ seasons if the Sox hadn’t acquired Seivers, but you’re claiming they were redundant. Then Buzhardt was more valuable than them individually as well.

[Blackout Friday]

I know not the best team, or even among them, but that 2003 team should have done some damage. That team was crazy talented.