Backup Catcher (update 3/29 - Lucroy won't make team, asked for release)

[hogan873]

With Grandal sidelined, we've seen a lot of the potential backups.  The Sox have hinted that they will not carry three catchers.  If that's the case, who gets the backup job?  Who do you think should get the job?

[Jnooch]

LuCroy signing reminds me of the EE signing maybe worse. At least we’re not fully commited to him. He hasnt been good at baseball for 5 years,

[CentralChamps21]

13 minutes ago, Jnooch said:

LuCroy signing reminds me of the EE signing maybe worse. At least we’re not fully commited to him. He hasnt been good at baseball for 5 years,

Yeah, other than not being guaranteed a roster spot, not eating up millions of guaranteed dollars that could have gone somewhere else, and not being at a position where it would have been really easy to find a better option, it's exactly the same.

[tray]

 

I think the Sox should trade Collins to a team where he can eventually become the starting catcher.

[Dominikk85]

I think la Russa will play grandal a ton. Molina also caught a lot of games every year with la Russa (often around 130+).

This could mean lucroy gets a shot because for 30 games catcher offense doesn't really matter. 

If he played a more even split (say 110/50 or even 100/60) then offense of the backup catcher would matter a lot more because you don't want an offensive black hole in one third of your games. 

So it all depends on how much he wants to use grandal. I'm sure he wants to use him a lot but maybe the FO tells him to give grandal a few more days at DH to rest his legs and then offense of the backup catcher could matter a little more. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Dominikk85

[raBBit]

Collins will hit in the MLB. Whether it is here or somewhere else.

That said, please find me someone who thinks he can catch in the MLB.

[SCCWS]

23 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Collins will hit in the MLB. Whether it is here or somewhere else.

That said, please find me someone who thinks he can catch in the MLB.

Collins has not had a fair chance to hit in MLB.  But he also has struggled when given the chance. He was average in AA and good in AAA.  So I think it may be debatable if he will hit in MLB if he actually had a position.  Maybe if he stayed in the minors longer and worked at his catching he might have latched on here or somewhere else. I think he really needs a year at AAA exclusively catching or converting to another position to see what his future direction should be.  Getting crumbs here and there in MLB the last 2 years has not helped. 

[hogan873]

I voted for Lucroy as both who I think should and who I think will.  I give him the edge over Collins for two reasons: Veteran presence behind the plate and a better offensive compliment to Grandal.  I like Collins, and I agree with other posters' sentiments that he can be a good hitter.  I do, however, worry about his ability behind the plate.

Overall, though, I don't think Collins would get the exposure necessary to improve as much as he can.  Grandal will most likely catch the bulk of the games (120+), and the team most likely has their DH in Vaughn.  That means Collins might get 30-40 games and 140-160 plate appearances.  I think he may end up being traded at the deadline, hopefully giving him a shot elsewhere.

[Bob Sacamano]

41 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Collins will hit in the MLB. Whether it is here or somewhere else.

That said, please find me someone who thinks he can catch in the MLB.

Yeah he probably makes sense on a team like Pittsburgh or some rebuilding team where he can play every day with a good veteran back up to learn from.

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, tray said:

 

I think the Sox should trade Collins to a team where he can eventually become the starting catcher.

Why take a dime on the dollar just to help him out?  

edit: spelling

Edited March 8, 2021 by ChiSox59

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Collins will hit in the MLB. Whether it is here or somewhere else.

That said, please find me someone who thinks he can catch in the MLB.

Having a lefty hitting catcher that can walk 100 times a year and hit 25 homers would be one of the most valuable assets in baseball....he wouldn't even have to be a good defensive catcher...just average.  Its hard to get an exact feel on what the White Sox think of Collins.   In 2018 they had a young, offensive catcher Omar Narvaez and signed Wellington Castillo...many thought they signed Castillo to help with the Manny Machado signing as they were friends.   Zack was only 23...he played 74 games that year all at catcher and was the all-star selection for the Southern League.   At the end of 2018...the young and interesting Narvaez (he put up a 2 WAR for Sox in 97 games at catcher at 26) was traded for Colome...which seemed to hint the White Sox thought they had a BETTER offense first catcher in the system.  That off-season they signed a two year contract with a journeyman catcher, James McCann.  In 2019 JM exploded out of the gate and was the all-star catcher, so he caught 106 games and they still had Wellington under contract so he still caught 50 games.  Collins, 24, came up and caught 10 games in the pros and caught 50 games in AAA...also he played 21 games at first base for the first time...was that because they lost faith in him as a catcher...or wanted to add to his diversity as a player?  In 2020 they signed Grandal...was that because they lost faith in Collins as a catcher or that they thought the team was near ready to compete, Grandal was affordable and a top 3 catcher in the league and 25 year old Collins wasn't ready to manage a staff of young pitchers?   Why didn't they trade James McCann??  It's possible that teams saw McCann's second half slide in 2019 and just figured 2019 first half was an illusion and didn't offer anything for him.  Why didn't they trade Collins...at that point he had just put up a .950 OPS as a young lefty catcher in AAA.   Then 2020 with two great starting catchers they had Collins everyday in Schaumburg catching simulated games with the Sox top young pitchers....everyday for months.   Doing nothing but catching under watchful eyes.  So now it's 2021 and the Sox made no attempt to resign JM...so they must have a plan for back up catcher.  I have written this before but I think this has been the Sox plan all along...it's just JM accidently being great and COVID screwed up the time line.  Grandal catches 110 games and Collins catches 50 and backs up at 1b and backs up DH.  He's only 26 and catching is a hard art to learn.  As Grandal gets older they cut his number of games caught and increase Collins games caught.  I've heard Catching is one of the hardest positions to learn...the White Sox have been grooming Collins to be everyday starter for the rest of the window.   If you are looking for a comp...Ted Simmons (switch hitting  but similar) was a high OBP, 20 homer per year, mediocre defensive catcher that had a 5 year stretch starting at 26 where he put up 25 WAR.    Of course if they give the back up catcher job to Lucroy it will tell us 100% that they have no belief that Collins can catch....but what does "Can't catch" even mean?  Narvaez was forced to catch 90 games because WC got caught with PEDS and he had seven errors, allowed 12 passed balls, and only threw out 24 percent of runners...and STILL put up near 2 WAR...good hitting catchers are valuable and good hitting lefty catchers more so.  

[pcq]

Unless he breaks down Lucroy should get the nod. That could change along the way.

[Jerksticks]

38 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Having a lefty hitting catcher that can walk 100 times a year and hit 25 homers would be one of the most valuable assets in baseball....he wouldn't even have to be a good defensive catcher...just average.  Its hard to get an exact feel on what the White Sox think of Collins.   In 2018 they had a young, offensive catcher Omar Narvaez and signed Wellington Castillo...many thought they signed Castillo to help with the Manny Machado signing as they were friends.   Zack was only 23...he played 74 games that year all at catcher and was the all-star selection for the Southern League.   At the end of 2018...the young and interesting Narvaez (he put up a 2 WAR for Sox in 97 games at catcher at 26) was traded for Colome...which seemed to hint the White Sox thought they had a BETTER offense first catcher in the system.  That off-season they signed a two year contract with a journeyman catcher, James McCann.  In 2019 JM exploded out of the gate and was the all-star catcher, so he caught 106 games and they still had Wellington under contract so he still caught 50 games.  Collins, 24, came up and caught 10 games in the pros and caught 50 games in AAA...also he played 21 games at first base for the first time...was that because they lost faith in him as a catcher...or wanted to add to his diversity as a player?  In 2020 they signed Grandal...was that because they lost faith in Collins as a catcher or that they thought the team was near ready to compete, Grandal was affordable and a top 3 catcher in the league and 25 year old Collins wasn't ready to manage a staff of young pitchers?   Why didn't they trade James McCann??  It's possible that teams saw McCann's second half slide in 2019 and just figured 2019 first half was an illusion and didn't offer anything for him.  Why didn't they trade Collins...at that point he had just put up a .950 OPS as a young lefty catcher in AAA.   Then 2020 with two great starting catchers they had Collins everyday in Schaumburg catching simulated games with the Sox top young pitchers....everyday for months.   Doing nothing but catching under watchful eyes.  So now it's 2021 and the Sox made no attempt to resign JM...so they must have a plan for back up catcher.  I have written this before but I think this has been the Sox plan all along...it's just JM accidently being great and COVID screwed up the time line.  Grandal catches 110 games and Collins catches 50 and backs up at 1b and backs up DH.  He's only 26 and catching is a hard art to learn.  As Grandal gets older they cut his number of games caught and increase Collins games caught.  I've heard Catching is one of the hardest positions to learn...the White Sox have been grooming Collins to be everyday starter for the rest of the window.   If you are looking for a comp...Ted Simmons (switch hitting  but similar) was a high OBP, 20 homer per year, mediocre defensive catcher that had a 5 year stretch starting at 26 where he put up 25 WAR.    Of course if they give the back up catcher job to Lucroy it will tell us 100% that they have no belief that Collins can catch....but what does "Can't catch" even mean?  Narvaez was forced to catch 90 games because WC got caught with PEDS and he had seven errors, allowed 12 passed balls, and only threw out 24 percent of runners...and STILL put up near 2 WAR...good hitting catchers are valuable and good hitting lefty catchers more so.  

I agree.  I like the angle that JM being good and COVID being both completely unexpected got in the way of Collins

[michelangelosmonkey]

17 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I agree.  I like the angle that JM being good and COVID being both completely unexpected got in the way of Collins

I think random luck plays a big part in a teams development (and life).  All the people that are mad about the White Sox 2010-2019 years...the left over World Series core was now all getting old...they bottomed out in 2013 where your realized Beckham and Vicideo were draft busts, Danks blew out his arm, Konerko, Alexi, Peavey, Dunn were nearing being done...team won 63 games and rebuild was needed...and then Boom...2014 you sign Abreu and he's rookie of the year, Sale suddenly looks like the best pitcher in baseball, Quintana who you found in the rubbish bin looks like a star, Eaton who you got for a bucket of balls puts up a 5 WAR and you have the 3rd pick in the draft...so instead of following a normal rebuild you are thrust into this go for it mode...even though the foundation is really in ruins (largely because of the Wilder scandal which in a sense is also random bad luck).  So four pieces of really good luck (ABreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana) came along at the worst time...but in the end they became the foundation for the real rebuild.   I hope I'm right about Collins...only because it raises the ceiling of this team even higher if it is.   

[Rounding_Third]

I voted for Lucroy for both assuming he shakes off the defensive rust he's show so far.  His bat looks great so far.  2 main reasons:

1.  It makes mores sense to me that Grandal will rest against LHP more often due to our RH heavy lineup.  He has to bat as much as possible against RHP.  Therefore a righty buc makes more sense.

2. Lucroy will have best vet chemistry with Lynn & Keuchel in particular.

That said, I thing Yermin's having the best ST so far in a really good buc battle.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Rounding_Third

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Lucroy is on the team and he's going to catch often.  

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Lucroy is on the team and he's going to catch often.  

Why would he catch often? I mean, I have no problem with Grandal getting early rest DHing a lot when Vaughn isn't up (assuming he starts in minors) and the position is more open but I don't want to lose Abreu, Vaughn, or Grandal's bat "often."

[ChiSox59]

30 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

Why would he catch often? I mean, I have no problem with Grandal getting early rest DHing a lot when Vaughn isn't up (assuming he starts in minors) and the position is more open but I don't want to lose Abreu, Vaughn, or Grandal's bat "often."

Its a bit.  He doesn't like Grandal.  

[RagahRagah]

Isn't Flowers still a FA?

[Vulture]

None of them seem to be any good behind the plate so might as well go with the one that can hit

[Blackout Friday]

Lucroy to both. Mercedes is a DH (and deserves a legit shot), and Collins isn’t good at anything. 

[Capital G]

I picked Collins should be and Lucroy will be.

TBH, I hate how we handled Collins. He should have been given all the opportunity he could get when we had a crap team to see what we had in him.

But now? He cannot catch well enough. Hitting? I think he could hit but with Abreu/Vaughn we dont have a spot for him to DH and play first. In the majors he would simply be riding the bench mostly. 

Had we given him opportunities to prove himself a few years ago we would either know he was not going to cut it or be able to have upped his value to then trade him for a need. Instead, here we are with him being useless in the majors as the team is constructed. Just have him play in the minors and see what happens down the line (injuries or a trade involving him).

Same could be said for Mercedes but at least he wasnt a first round pick like Collins. 

[SCCWS]

20 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

Why would he catch often? I mean, I have no problem with Grandal getting early rest DHing a lot when Vaughn isn't up (assuming he starts in minors) and the position is more open but I don't want to lose Abreu, Vaughn, or Grandal's bat "often."

FWIW---Grandal has had struggles the 2nd half of seasons offensively.  I think understandable because he has always caught a lot of games each year.  He also has had a career average of around .200 when he has played IB .  So his bat is a plus but the "stat people" probably need to work around how many games he should catch physically and what role he has if any outside of the days he does not catch. 

[yesterday333]

Why do people keep saying Collins can’t catch? Everything I have heard from people who know what they are talking about  is he is below average. I get it if people don’t want a below average catcher as the backup but he is not a butcher back there. He can catch. People should really stop claiming he can’t do it. From a couple years ago I think it was Keith Law who said he called a good game and controlled the base runners well and his problems were with receiving. So if they go to an electronic strike zone soon he will be better than average.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Its a bit.  He doesn't like Grandal.  

Well I will say it's difficult to gauge  fact from strong personal opinions with him. He's known here as an insider but also known for strong personal opinions and stating those opinions as fact like he just did. He rarely phrases what he says as opinion like " I think this"  or "I thank that".

I will say that if Grandal's early health issues are a sign of things to come , then whoever gets more playing time has to take advantage of it . Lucroy might not have much left in the tank either.

COVID or McCann could've played a part in the slow development of Collins but it also might have something to do with how they view Collins dedication. They won't move him because he does have valuable skills .  With Grandal ailing and Lucroy's health always a question and a possible early season opening at DH Collins should get more chances this year.

Now if by some miracle Mercedes makes the team and Collins doesn't, that would be a pretty clear sign the Sox are sending Collins some kind of message. Unfortunately Mercedes could hit 8 HR's and throw out 8 runners, hit .450 this spring and he still wouldn't get a job on the 26 .