Backup Catcher (update 3/29 - Lucroy won't make team, asked for release)

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well I will say it's difficult to gauge  fact from strong personal opinions with him. He's known here as an insider but also known for strong personal opinions and stating those opinions as fact like he just did. He rarely phrases what he says as opinion like " I think this"  or "I thank that".

I will say that if Grandal's early health issues are a sign of things to come , then whoever gets more playing time has to take advantage of it . Lucroy might not have much left in the tank either.

COVID or McCann could've played a part in the slow development of Collins but it also might have something to do with how they view Collins dedication. They won't move him because he does have valuable skills .  With Grandal ailing and Lucroy's health always a question and a possible early season opening at DH Collins should get more chances this year.

Now if by some miracle Mercedes makes the team and Collins doesn't, that would be a pretty clear sign the Sox are sending Collins some kind of message. Unfortunately Mercedes could hit 8 HR's and throw out 8 runners, hit .450 this spring and he still wouldn't get a job on the 26 .

I have to admit that I really don't know how the evaluation process for a catcher works.  It used to be PB's and WP's and runners thrown out...but I think that is clearly changed...and honestly the difference in passed balls between a good catcher and a bad one might be one extra passed ball a month....and WP and stolen bases have as much to do with the pitcher.  Seems now it is framing...which just seems like a weird skill...its tricking the ump into calling something a strike when it's not.  Wouldn't that disappear over time?  Wouldn't the umps say...oh that's the guy with the high framing rate...I'm not giving in to that call!     Still I suspect the real value of a catcher is calling a game...It's the fifth, Reylo is pitching in a tied game, two runners on, 3-2, you have a lefty hitter up and he's a low ball hitter.  What do you tell the pitcher to throw?  Or maybe that is all done from the dugout...seems like the pitcher controls the speed of the game so it would be easy enough for the catcher to get the sign from elsewhere.  Honestly...if you have a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and he's merely passable defensively isn't that better than having a great fielding no hit catcher?  Joe Mauer who we all remember from up the road...had a CAREER dWAR of 3...and an offensive WAR of 52.   I'd totally take Joe Mauer on this team.  Final thought...listened to the White Sox Talk podcast with Jerry Naron...and the first guy he talked about after Grandal was Collins.  Come on...it HAS to be Collins doesn't it?       

[Texsox]

Collins will be part of a trade deadline package for an aging veteran brought in to fill a hole. We'll regret the trade next year. 

I'm hoping the backup gets about 40 starts. I'm thinking going to church and watching the Sunday lineup. 

[Dick Allen]

Speaking of catchers, 40 years ago today, the White Sox announced they had agreed to terms with Carlton Fisk. It took another 9 days for it to be official.

[Texsox]

38 years ago Hawk thought Fisk should be an outfielder. Who knew he'd be a freak of nature? 

[MiddleCoastBias]

My prediction: Lucroy starts the season as the backup, Collins stays in extended spring training for extra work before the AAA season starts.

Bold prediction:  the Rays trade for Yermin

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

My prediction: Lucroy starts the season as the backup, Collins stays in extended spring training for extra work before the AAA season starts.

Bold prediction:  the Rays trade for Yermin

IT seems to me if the Rays call up inquiring about a player you should probably re-evaluate his availability.  

[South Side Hit Men]

14 minutes ago, Texsox said:

38 years ago Hawk thought Fisk should be an outfielder. Who knew he'd be a freak of nature? 

That’s not how I recall what went down. Tony wanted this, Hawk accommodated to start, but pushed a change in May when it wasn’t working out.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-06-22-8602140807-story.html

Quote

Concurrent with this success was the return of Carlton Fisk to his catching position. The transfer of Fisk to left field was LaRussa`s idea, with the blessings of LaRussa`s coaches. Harrelson also approved. Three weeks into the season, Harrelson began having doubts.

In early May, Harrelson summoned Herman Franks to Chicago, the same Herman Franks who managed the San Francisco Giants and the Cubs. Franks, a knowledgeable and plain-speaking veteran with more than 50 years in baseball, was hired recently by the Sox as a part-time scout. Although suffering with the gout, Franks packed a small bag and made the trip from his home in Salt Lake City.

''Watch us and tell me what`s wrong,'' Harrelson said.

Franks watched for two games, and in his usual brusque manner, announced, ''Get Fisk the hell out of left field!''

Harrelson conveyed the message to LaRussa, but he wasn`t ready to concede. It wasn`t until a week later, a day or two after the O`Hare press conference, that Fisk picked up a catcher`s mitt.

 

 

[Dominikk85]

On 3/9/2021 at 7:36 PM, michelangelosmonkey said:

I have to admit that I really don't know how the evaluation process for a catcher works.  It used to be PB's and WP's and runners thrown out...but I think that is clearly changed...and honestly the difference in passed balls between a good catcher and a bad one might be one extra passed ball a month....and WP and stolen bases have as much to do with the pitcher.  Seems now it is framing...which just seems like a weird skill...its tricking the ump into calling something a strike when it's not.  Wouldn't that disappear over time?  Wouldn't the umps say...oh that's the guy with the high framing rate...I'm not giving in to that call!     Still I suspect the real value of a catcher is calling a game...It's the fifth, Reylo is pitching in a tied game, two runners on, 3-2, you have a lefty hitter up and he's a low ball hitter.  What do you tell the pitcher to throw?  Or maybe that is all done from the dugout...seems like the pitcher controls the speed of the game so it would be easy enough for the catcher to get the sign from elsewhere.  Honestly...if you have a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and he's merely passable defensively isn't that better than having a great fielding no hit catcher?  Joe Mauer who we all remember from up the road...had a CAREER dWAR of 3...and an offensive WAR of 52.   I'd totally take Joe Mauer on this team.  Final thought...listened to the White Sox Talk podcast with Jerry Naron...and the first guy he talked about after Grandal was Collins.  Come on...it HAS to be Collins doesn't it?       

Mauer was an excellent defender before he got those concussion issues that ruined his career. Don't think that can be compared to Collins. 

[Capital G]

On 3/9/2021 at 5:51 PM, MiddleCoastBias said:

My prediction: Lucroy starts the season as the backup, Collins stays in extended spring training for extra work before the AAA season starts.

Bold prediction:  the Rays trade for Yermin

If the Rays ask for him you automatically decline and bring him up to start. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

Mauer was an excellent defender before he got those concussion issues that ruined his career. Don't think that can be compared to Collins. 

He was never an "excellent" defender.  He got his concussion in 2013.  In 2012 he put up a -0.7 dWar.   He put up 3 dWar total in the 9 years before his concussion.  Gary Carter put up a 4 dWar one year.  Molina put up 20 dWar in 10 years.  He was a passable defender that was a great player because he was such a good hitter.  

[poppysox]

On 3/9/2021 at 5:56 PM, michelangelosmonkey said:

IT seems to me if the Rays call up inquiring about a player you should probably re-evaluate his availability.  

Ain't it the truth.?

[Sambuca]

17 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He was never an "excellent" defender.  He got his concussion in 2013.  In 2012 he put up a -0.7 dWar.   He put up 3 dWar total in the 9 years before his concussion.  Gary Carter put up a 4 dWar one year.  Molina put up 20 dWar in 10 years.  He was a passable defender that was a great player because he was such a good hitter.  

Whatever you think Mauer’s career dWAR tells you about his defense behind the plate, you’re still comparing Zack Collins to Joe Mauer.  

Just stop.  You are being absurd.

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 hours ago, Sambuca said:

Whatever you think Mauer’s career dWAR tells you about his defense behind the plate, you’re still comparing Zack Collins to Joe Mauer.  

Just stop.  You are being absurd.

So your counter argument is "shut up"?   The argument was that a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and be passable defensively is very valuable and I used Joe Mauer as an example...and embarrassingly used actual defensive stats showing he wasn't a very good defender.  How about we say Darren Daulton. He's more like Collins than Mauer...I just thought Mauer was more familiar.  DD had an elite batting eye, decent power and was not a great defensive catcher...and starting at age 28 put up an average of 3 WAR per year for 6 years.  And for those that say Collins is a terrible hitter...1200 career minor league at bats with .840 OPS.   600 NCAA at bats with OPS 1.000.  Career spring training OPS 1.000.   Yes his first fifteen MLB games he was terrible...his last ten in 2019 he put up a .950 OPS.   The skills of elite strike zone understanding and + Power play in the majors...and even with a low batting average could be an .800 OPS regular.  I prefer taking that chance over the chance that 34 year old Jonathon Lucroy in the midst of a five year slump is the answer to some kind of question.  

[Vulture]

Unlike WAR, dWAR is weighted against league average. So any positive number is in fact “good”

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Unlike WAR, dWAR is weighted against league average. So any positive number is in fact “good”

A career dWAR of 3 means over 11 years his average year was + 0.27 so OK, good in the narrowest sense of the word.  His career "runs saved above average" over 11 years at C was a combined...one.  That seems pretty much like an average catcher. And again I'm not bashing Mauer who is a certain Hall of Famer...I was merely saying a lefty hitting catcher that is passable defensively is worth a ton.  Switch to Darren Daulton who was slightly worse defensively than Mauer and quite a bit worse offensively and still had a 6 year 18 WAR run.   

[YourWhatHurts]

I would love it if we had a better defensive and pitchers catcher than Grandal.  I still think the Sox blew it with McCann and also, they blew it not taking a real shot at Realmuto in FA (McCann's deal PERFECTLY set them up for a shot at Realmuto).  

But because they have Grandal, they need a much better backup regardless.  

Personally I think Collins has a chance to end up a much better player than he gets credit for being.  I remember the way people talked about Tyler Flowers' defense, and yet defense turned into more of a strength than a weakness.  I think some other team might get a bargain on Collins in a trade.

The Sox have chosen their paths with certain players.  There were always other options they could have called up in-house or acquired cheaply to take ABs away from the likes of Nicky Delmonico, Palka, that guy from the Astros who sucked, etc.  Collins is one who got the shaft.  But now they need to win and they need at least 1 of their C to be good back there.  So Lucroy it is.

If Hahn ever wants to trade Grandal out of here, I will be first to volunteer to pack his bags and take him to the airport.

Edited March 12, 2021 by YourWhatHurts

[Vulture]

Considering league averages are heavily weighted by the best players since the best players play the most, I’d say anything that exceeds that is good.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 hour ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I would love it if we had a better defensive and pitchers catcher than Grandal.  I still think the Sox blew it with McCann and also, they blew it not taking a real shot at Realmuto in FA (McCann's deal PERFECTLY set them up for a shot at Realmuto).  

But because they have Grandal, they need a much better backup regardless.  

Personally I think Collins has a chance to end up a much better player than he gets credit for being.  I remember the way people talked about Tyler Flowers' defense, and yet defense turned into more of a strength than a weakness.  I think some other team might get a bargain on Collins in a trade.

The Sox have chosen their paths with certain players.  There were always other options they could have called up in-house or acquired cheaply to take ABs away from the likes of Nicky Delmonico, Palka, that guy from the Astros who sucked, etc.  Collins is one who got the shaft.  But now they need to win and they need at least 1 of their C to be good back there.  So Lucroy it is.

If Hahn ever wants to trade Grandal out of here, I will be first to volunteer to pack his bags and take him to the airport.

Grandal is a top 3 catcher in the league.

[Rounding_Third]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

So your counter argument is "shut up"?   The argument was that a lefty hitting catcher that can put up an .850 OPS and be passable defensively is very valuable and I used Joe Mauer as an example...and embarrassingly used actual defensive stats showing he wasn't a very good defender.  How about we say Darren Daulton. He's more like Collins than Mauer...I just thought Mauer was more familiar.  DD had an elite batting eye, decent power and was not a great defensive catcher...and starting at age 28 put up an average of 3 WAR per year for 6 years.  And for those that say Collins is a terrible hitter...1200 career minor league at bats with .840 OPS.   600 NCAA at bats with OPS 1.000.  Career spring training OPS 1.000.   Yes his first fifteen MLB games he was terrible...his last ten in 2019 he put up a .950 OPS.   The skills of elite strike zone understanding and + Power play in the majors...and even with a low batting average could be an .800 OPS regular.  I prefer taking that chance over the chance that 34 year old Jonathon Lucroy in the midst of a five year slump is the answer to some kind of question.  

Why do you choose to categorize Lucroy as having a "5 year slump" while knowing that he played for 3 years ('17-'19) with an ever deteriorating herniated neck disk and 2 more years for surgery, recovery, & rehab.  You clearly don't realize how bad a disk has to be to require surgery. The fact that he performed at a decent level for those 3 years is a testament to his grit.  This is a completely new and different stage for him.  His time spent with a herniated disk is over.  The question is how does he perform with a repaired one.  So far, so good, imo.  I can't imagine how much respect he must have among his peers.  Are pitchers that are recovering 12-18 months from TJ surgery in a "slump", as well? 

Shameful you reach so low to pump Collins!

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Rounding_Third said:

Why do you choose to categorize Lucroy as having a "5 year slump" while knowing that he played for 3 years ('17-'19) with an ever deteriorating herniated neck disk and 2 more years for surgery, recovery, & rehab.  You clearly don't realize how bad a disk has to be to require surgery. The fact that he performed at a decent level for those 3 years is a testament to his grit.  This is a completely new and different stage for him.  His time spent with a herniated disk is over.  The question is how does he perform with a repaired one.  So far, so good, imo.  I can't imagine how much respect he must have among his peers.  Are pitchers that are recovering 12-18 months from TJ surgery in a "slump", as well? 

Shameful you reach so low to pump Collins!

Clearly Lucroy is poised to return back to his form with the Brewers. Everyone knows it. That's why the Sox had to really pay up and sign him to a minor league contract. 

[Rounding_Third]

20 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Clearly Lucroy is poised to return back to his form with the Brewers. Everyone knows it. That's why the Sox had to really pay up and sign him to a minor league contract. 

Oh for sure!  Because that's what my post clearly said.  Helloooo, anybody in there?

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Oh for sure!  Because that's what my post clearly said.  Helloooo, anybody in there?

There's a reason Lucroy is on a minor league contract. He has sucked. As much as catching is so coveted, and guys who really can't do much get guaranteed contracts, he couldn't get one You want to say he's been hurt for 5 years, and that is the reason, and he isn't hurt anymore, that's fine with me. But chances are he is a replacement level player at best.

[Rounding_Third]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There's a reason Lucroy is on a minor league contract. He has sucked. As much as catching is so coveted, and guys who really can't do much get guaranteed contracts, he couldn't get one You want to say he's been hurt for 5 years, and that is the reason, and he isn't hurt anymore, that's fine with me. But chances are he is a replacement level player at best.

He's on a minor league contract because he's been out of baseball for 2 years after a very harrowing and unusual injury.   He's only sucked when healthy in the depths of your vivid imagination; one that believes I stated he was going to return to an all-star caliber player.

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

He's on a minor league contract because he's been out of baseball for 2 years after a very harrowing and unusual injury.   He's only sucked when healthy in the depths of your vivid imagination; one that believes I stated he was going to return to an all-star caliber player.

You make is sound like he was clingling to life, and is lucky to ever walk again. He was well enough to play. Considering what constitutes reasons for taking some time off these days, his injury isn't as "harrowing" and you make it out to be.  Miguel Cabrera played with 2 herniated discs and somehow managed an .850 OPS a few years ago. And he hasn't been out of baseball 2 years. He played in 2019 and couldn't make the Red Sox except for one game last season.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Dick Allen

[Rounding_Third]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You make is sound like he was clingling to life, and is lucky to ever walk again. He was well enough to play. Considering what constitutes reasons for taking some time off these days, his injury isn't as "harrowing" and you make it out to be.

harrowing:  acutely distressing.   But thanks again for your vivid interpretations.  When I first heard the Sox signed Lucroy, I read all I could about herniated neck disks, you clearly did not.  i have also known 2 close associates who succumbed to lower back disk surgeries and know what they went through in the years leading up to it.  I'm also aware about how disk surgery is the very last resort because of its dangers and difficult recovery.  But thanks, doc!  Especially the part of how you knew how he was feeling while he played with it for 3 years.  That is incredibly perceptive of you!