The Andrew Vaughn LF Thread

[ThirdGen]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

No, you are not remembering what happened 35 years ago.

This was La Russa's scheme, Harrelson signed off on it, asked Tony to pull the plug when it wasn't working. Tony dug in, went to Jerry and kept Fisk in LF for another week plus until finally conceding it was a complete debacle and shifting Fisk back to Catcher.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-06-22-8602140807-story.html

 

 

See the quote from Harrelson below.  He flat out admits it was his idea.  I've heard him admit it at least 5 times since then.   There was a lot of finger pointing going on at the time, and LaRussa wasn't pinning anything on Harrelson at the time.  Reinsdorf rewarded him for his loyalty by setting him up in Oakland for a soft landing.

There's Nothing Major League About White Sox Circus - The Washington Post

 

In the lastest schizophrenic White Sox development, Harrelson "surrendered" last Friday in his power struggle with LaRussa and agreed to let the manager actually manage the team. "My ideas weren't working," he said. "Let Tony have a clean shot doing it his way."

Out the door went two Hawk coaches, Willie Horton (best known as Martin's bodyguard and "tranquility coach" in New York) and Moe Drabowsky (best known as the Orioles reliever who once ordered carry-out Oriental food on the bullpen phone -- from a Hong Kong restaurant.)

In the door came Fisk, who's catching again. For now. "I feel very vulnerable," said the .208-hitting Fisk, who did bike work and aerobics for agility for months and now has switched back to his mega-iron-pumping regimen for bulk behind the plate and home runs at bat. "I don't know whether the whole thing has done more harm to my head or my body, but I certainly feel damaged."

SPORTS PEOPLE; Into Left Field - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Frick Award Completes Hawk Harrelson’s Career Comeback After Tumultous Stint As White Sox GM (forbes.com)

A Conversation With: Tony La Russa (si.com)

[South Side Hit Men]

41 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

See the quote from Harrelson below.  He flat out admits it was his idea.  I've heard him admit it at least 5 times since then.   There was a lot of finger pointing going on at the time, and LaRussa wasn't pinning anything on Harrelson at the time.  Reinsdorf rewarded him for his loyalty by setting him up in Oakland for a soft landing.

There's Nothing Major League About White Sox Circus - The Washington Post

 

In the lastest schizophrenic White Sox development, Harrelson "surrendered" last Friday in his power struggle with LaRussa and agreed to let the manager actually manage the team. "My ideas weren't working," he said. "Let Tony have a clean shot doing it his way."

Out the door went two Hawk coaches, Willie Horton (best known as Martin's bodyguard and "tranquility coach" in New York) and Moe Drabowsky (best known as the Orioles reliever who once ordered carry-out Oriental food on the bullpen phone -- from a Hong Kong restaurant.)

In the door came Fisk, who's catching again. For now. "I feel very vulnerable," said the .208-hitting Fisk, who did bike work and aerobics for agility for months and now has switched back to his mega-iron-pumping regimen for bulk behind the plate and home runs at bat. "I don't know whether the whole thing has done more harm to my head or my body, but I certainly feel damaged."

SPORTS PEOPLE; Into Left Field - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Frick Award Completes Hawk Harrelson’s Career Comeback After Tumultous Stint As White Sox GM (forbes.com)

A Conversation With: Tony La Russa (si.com)

Thank you for the links. I read / remembered Jerome H's take at the time, was not aware of these articles. I stand corrected.

[pcq]

I think both fans and planners may wish to consider the likelihood that Eloyicious will self-immolate one night in the dugout. His affinity for casualty could result in a short career. 

[joejoesox]

god damn Hawk Harrelson was an idiot

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

It was before my time and I had heard that Hawk’s tenure at GM was bad but my God did he do a ton of damage in less than a year. Imagine a modern day Sox GM doing what he did. This board might take decades to recover.

[Dick Allen]

51 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It was before my time and I had heard that Hawk’s tenure at GM was bad but my God did he do a ton of damage in less than a year. Imagine a modern day Sox GM doing what he did. This board might take decades to recover.

He should not have gotten the job, but that team was doomed and headed for a rebuild anyway.  He did a couple nice things, acquiring Calderon and picking Bonilla in the rule 5. Of course he traded Bonilla back to the Pirates, but that actually might have helped in the long run as DeLeon eventually became the 1 Dog. And Bonilla being around might have prevented the Sox from drafting at least one of the four in a row they hit big on under Himes. Also, Hawk's tenure convinced ownership it was time to bite the bullet which set up the teams of the early nineties. 

 

[NWINFan]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He should not have gotten the job, but that team was doomed and headed for a rebuild anyway.  He did a couple nice things, acquiring Calderon and picking Bonilla in the rule 5. Of course he traded Bonilla back to the Pirates, but that actually might have helped in the long run as DeLeon eventually became the 1 Dog. And Bonilla being around might have prevented the Sox from drafting at least one of the four in a row they hit big on under Himes. Also, Hawk's tenure convinced ownership it was time to bite the bullet which set up the teams of the early nineties. 

 

This was a hire pulled off like many hires by this organization. Little pre-thought, and head-scratching logic. Yes, the Sox needed a rebuild, but the team didn't need a loud-mouthed TV color-man to do it. The rest of the 80's was nothing but losing. The franchise lost credibility and looked like it was run by a bunch of know-nothings. The team turned it around in the early Nineties. But then came the strike and some more dumb decisions. Then back to rebuilding. Sound familiar?

[BRDSR]

5 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

This was a hire pulled off like many hires by this organization. Little pre-thought, and head-scratching logic. Yes, the Sox needed a rebuild, but the team didn't need a loud-mouthed TV color-man to do it. The rest of the 80's was nothing but losing. The franchise lost credibility and looked like it was run by a bunch of know-nothings. The team turned it around in the early Nineties. But then came the strike and some more dumb decisions. Then back to rebuilding. Sound familiar?

lol...I do recall a World Series victory in there somewhere.  Right?  I was there, I'm sure of it.

But yeah, other than the narrative sounds about right.

[caulfield12]

20 minutes ago, BRDSR said:

lol...I do recall a World Series victory in there somewhere.  Right?  I was there, I'm sure of it.

But yeah, other than the narrative sounds about right.

Do we really think Marlins’ fans are all that satisfied now because of 1997 and 2003?

[Dick Allen]

56 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

This was a hire pulled off like many hires by this organization. Little pre-thought, and head-scratching logic. Yes, the Sox needed a rebuild, but the team didn't need a loud-mouthed TV color-man to do it. The rest of the 80's was nothing but losing. The franchise lost credibility and looked like it was run by a bunch of know-nothings. The team turned it around in the early Nineties. But then came the strike and some more dumb decisions. Then back to rebuilding. Sound familiar?

Yes, but the rebuild was necessary. Hemond got replaced because the farm system was so bad. Hawk was bad enough, it brought in Himes and Goldis which solved that problem.  The 1985 team was decent, but their top 2 starters were Seaver, who didn’t want to be there anymore, and was about dome anyway, and Burns, who Hawk actually traded, and he never pitched again. They accounted for 450 innings in 1985. And Bob James, who was pretty great in 1985, lost it. They were going to be bad anyway.  The Sox lost LaRussa. They actually played better under Fregosi. Acquired and lost Bonilla, in the long run it helped them. Other than that, they didn’t lose anything of value. Hawk did introduce  the2 hitting coaches and 2 pitching coaches model, which is now being utilized by most teams. He had no top prospects he could have traded, so the position was child proof. Who knows what someone else would have done that year, but they were going to be bad, and be bad for a while, so at least it was a little interesting, as there seemed to be a trade or a signing of a recently waived past star, Carlton, Foster, plus coach and manager moves almost every week. I do think Hawk’s tenure got JR on the right track for a while. 
 

One near miss I read was Bo Jackson was drafted in the 4th round by KC when Hawk was the GM. Everyone assumed he would be a football only guy. Apparently the Sox were going to take him in round 5 if he was still on the board.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Dick Allen

[ThirdGen]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, but the rebuild was necessary. Hemond got replaced because the farm system was so bad. Hawk was bad enough, it brought in Himes and Goldis which solved that problem.  The 1985 team was decent, but their top 2 starters were Seaver, who didn’t want to be there anymore, and was about dome anyway, and Burns, who Hawk actually traded, and he never pitched again. They accounted for 450 innings in 1985. And Bob James, who was pretty great in 1985, lost it. They were going to be bad anyway.  The Sox lost LaRussa. They actually played better under Fregosi. Acquired and lost Bonilla, in the long run it helped them. Other than that, they didn’t lose anything of value. Hawk did introduce  the2 hitting coaches and 2 pitching coaches model, which is now being utilized by most teams. He had no top prospects he could have traded, so the position was child proof. Who knows what someone else would have done that year, but they were going to be bad, and be bad for a while, so at least it was a little interesting, as there seemed to be a trade or a signing of a recently waived past star, Carlton, Foster, plus coach and manager moves almost every week. I do think Hawk’s tenure got JR on the right track for a while. 
 

One near miss I read was Bo Jackson was drafted in the 4th round by KC when Hawk was the GM. Everyone assumed he would be a football only guy. Apparently the Sox were going to take him in round 5 if he was still on the board.

I was really disappointed in what happened with Hemond.  All those years with Allyn and Veeck left me wondering what he could do with a team that wasn't perpetually borderline bankrupt.  Then JR/EE buy the team, and at the time they were willing to spend money like everyone else.  After the quick success of 1983, Hemond couldn't do anything with it.

Harrelson came in with lots of out of the box big ideas and they thought it was worth a try.  When put in practice, they quickly discovered why other teams didn't have multiple pitching coaches, multiple hitting coaches, lots of old time stars hanging around.  Caused more problems that it fixed.

[bear_brian]

A couple of random thoughts;

 

- As I remember, Harrelson's hiring resulted in Dave Dombrowski's departure from the Sox.  Dombrowski's initial successes in Montreal and Florida, and his "theft" of Miguel Cabrera from Florida when Dombrowski went to Detroit surely haunted the White Sox for some time.

 

- A different view of Vaughn in left field: Tony La Russa today is not the guy from the '70's. He is extremely knowledgeable. If he believes Vaughn can play an adequate LF and give our line-up a boost, then I am all in on that decision.

[NWINFan]

40 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

I was really disappointed in what happened with Hemond.  All those years with Allyn and Veeck left me wondering what he could do with a team that wasn't perpetually borderline bankrupt.  Then JR/EE buy the team, and at the time they were willing to spend money like everyone else.  After the quick success of 1983, Hemond couldn't do anything with it.

Harrelson came in with lots of out of the box big ideas and they thought it was worth a try.  When put in practice, they quickly discovered why other teams didn't have multiple pitching coaches, multiple hitting coaches, lots of old time stars hanging around.  Caused more problems that it fixed.

It was probably time for Hemond to go. That wasn't the problem. I just wished the ownership put more thought into this.

I hope Vaughn works out somehow in left field, and that he is not someone just shoved there because they don't have anyone else. I remember Greg Norton at third base in 1999. He was totally out of his element, and it just didn't work out. That wasn't fair to Norton, and wasn't fair to fans having to watch him struggle. I hope Vaughn doesn't end up looking like Norton.

[Dick Allen]

40 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

It was probably time for Hemond to go. That wasn't the problem. I just wished the ownership put more thought into this.

I hope Vaughn works out somehow in left field, and that he is not someone just shoved there because they don't have anyone else. I remember Greg Norton at third base in 1999. He was totally out of his element, and it just didn't work out. That wasn't fair to Norton, and wasn't fair to fans having to watch him struggle. I hope Vaughn doesn't end up looking like Norton.

It was a good thing for fans sitting above 1st base desperately seeking souvenirs.  He let several fly over and around the Big Hurt and Paulie.

[runtheballdown]

So a couple of things:

It’s not like eloys replacement is going to hit .00000.

vaughn couldn’t not provide better Defence than Eloy so that’s a plus. Vaughn might hit almost as well as Eloy but I would take eloys first year of production from Vaughn . So overall a plus. 

this gets Collins in the mix as DH a lot. It’s time to give him a shot . Even if he’s mediocre that’s still better than EE and Larouche and Dunn and the other disasters that Hahn has brought in. Hahn will finally have a DH by default and that guy can also be the back up catcher . Plus there

candidly I like Eloy but him running into nets and walls is stupid. If I remember he also got injured in a team celebration and missed part of last years playoffs. These things might have been a little humorous early on but now it could possibly cost the Sox. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by runtheballdown

[hi8is]

Day two begins! SWEET!

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

I was really disappointed in what happened with Hemond.  All those years with Allyn and Veeck left me wondering what he could do with a team that wasn't perpetually borderline bankrupt.  Then JR/EE buy the team, and at the time they were willing to spend money like everyone else.  After the quick success of 1983, Hemond couldn't do anything with it.

Jerry was mostly cheap beyond the Fisk signing, just as he is now. They were never a consistently top half payroll team as they would have been under Debartolo. A few brief sports after the WS and when the new park opened. Even now, “all in” they are cheap beyond paying two managers to fulfill Jerry’s asinine fantasies. 

The only Top MLB Contract they pursued was Belle, solely because Jerry wanted to spite his fellow owners. He ended up dumping him after the second year, a year after the white flag trade , once spite ran its course and cheap and stupid returned in vogue.

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, but the rebuild was necessary. Hemond got replaced because the farm system was so bad. 

Hemond was replaced because Jerry wanted his guy, not Allyn/Veeck’s guy. So  he and Dombrowski were purged, and Dombrowski travelled across America building multiple great clubs including the White Sox’ other nemesis (Detroit). Himes did great in the draft but was purged as well.

Now stuck with White Sox Gar Pax entering year nine with now end beyond Jerry’s departure in sight. Same with the Bulls until a few years after Michael Reinsdorf took over and they could finally purge Gar Pax with Jerry gone.

3 hours ago, NWINFan said:

This was a hire pulled off like many hires by this organization. Little pre-thought, and head-scratching logic. Yes, the Sox needed a rebuild, but the team didn't need a loud-mouthed TV color-man to do it. The rest of the 80's was nothing but losing. The franchise lost credibility and looked like it was run by a bunch of know-nothings. The team turned it around in the early Nineties. But then came the strike and some more dumb decisions. Then back to rebuilding. Sound familiar?

This. The dysfunctional organization starts at the top. Hang on to unqualified cheap cronies to run the show, don’t know how to or bother need to compete on the field to make money.

It’s why the Sox and Bears have floundered for decades, and the Bulls for two decades once the gift of Portland’s blunder (Sam Bowie), Pippen and Jackson were gleefully purged by JR/Krause, followed by two decades of Paxton, a lottery pick (Rose) away from complete and abysmal failure.

Same with the Blackhawks until Dollar Bill died, and the Cubs until the Tribune sold, competent baseball people were hired and the money spent.

Once Jerry is gone, hopefully things will change for the better as they have for the Bulls, whether the Reinsdorf’s keep the team or not.

[oldsox]

On 3/27/2021 at 1:35 AM, hi8is said:

Today... he caught a fly ball and showed off a noddle arm on a throw to second base.

Was there a play at second?  If no one was on base, there is no reason to throw a fast ball to second, is there?  I just can't imagine a guy playing baseball all his life and not being able to make that throw.

[southsideirish71]

6 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Was there a play at second?  If no one was on base, there is no reason to throw a fast ball to second, is there?  I just can't imagine a guy playing baseball all his life and not being able to make that throw.

There are positional nuances that need to be taught.  OFs learn how to crow hop/pro step to throw a ball with more momentum.  As a first baseman, he hasn't had to do that and it's probably not instinctive.  Rounding the OF ground ball to get the right angle to the bag.  Situational awareness in the OF.  This is something that will take some time.  He is a MLB athlete so we all expect him to know everything but considering he hasn't probably played OF since little league its a bit more work to get that ingrained.  I laugh when everyone thinks that every play can play every position.  The age-old adage, well let's just make him an OF or a 1B.  1B has a lot of foot work that most don't understand.  Also, the ability to pick the ball can save a lot of bad plays.  In the OF it's about getting behind the ball, moving your momentum towards the target of the throw. 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by southsideirish71

[hi8is]

He caught a ball today from what I read. Yay.

[SonofaRoache]

3 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

There are positional nuances that need to be taught.  OFs learn how to crow hop/pro step to throw a ball with more momentum.  As a first baseman, he hasn't had to do that and it's probably not instinctive.  Rounding the OF ground ball to get the right angle to the bag.  Situational awareness in the OF.  This is something that will take some time.  He is a MLB athlete so we all expect him to know everything but considering he hasn't probably played OF since little league its a bit more work to get that ingrained.  I laugh when everyone thinks that every play can play every position.  The age-old adage, well let's just make him an OF or a 1B.  1B has a lot of foot work that most don't understand.  Also, the ability to pick the ball can save a lot of bad plays.  In the OF it's about getting behind the ball, moving your momentum towards the target of the throw. 

 

But Vaughn has been playing in the field for the Sox. He is still raw, but it's not as if he is brand new. 

[SonofaRoache]

Thought Robert was hurt. 

[flavum]

Vaughn turns 23 on Saturday. First homer before, after, or on his birthday?

Bundy, Heaney, Cobb, Ohtani

Edited March 28, 2021 by flavum

[hi8is]

1 hour ago, flavum said:

Vaughn turns 23 on Saturday. First homer before, after, or on his birthday?

Bundy, Heaney, Cobb, Ohtani

On would be cool and fitting vs Cobb.

[caulfield12]

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/eloy-jimenez-injury-should-the-white-sox-get-aggressive-in-the-trade-of-free-agent-market-or-stand-pat/

 

Reddick, Aquino (Reds, out of options), Puig, Cespedes Tauchman, Trey Mancini (certainly won't happen until mid-season) mentioned.  Braun and Markakis look to stay retired.

Edited March 29, 2021 by caulfield12