I thought We Were Stockpiling Talent In The Minors??? To Avoid This Problem

[Soxsi75]

I thought I heard that the one of the strengths of this rebuild we've had to go through for the past 6 years was the large number of prospects we were stockpiling. For, you know, in case something like this happened? Well, I guess I heard wrong.  Where the f%^$ is Blake Rutherford?? You know, the guy we gave up an accomplished major league hitter, (Frazier,) and half the back of our bullpen, (Robertson and Kahnle,) for? Instead we have to try and make Vaughn learn a new position on the fly as well as learn to hit major league pitching?

[joejoesox]

this organization will always look half-assed compared to others (not even talking about NYY, LAD).  It's so pathetic when the Twins, Rays, and Astros are showing how it's done

it's pretty embarassing. if Reinsdorf gave a shit as much as these other teams, Williams and Hahn would be gone and he would be sniping talent from the aforementioned clubs

 

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

I thought I heard that the one of the strengths of this rebuild we've had to go through for the past 6 years was the large number of prospects we were stockpiling. For, you know, in case something like this happened? Well, I guess I heard wrong.  Where the f%^$ is Blake Rutherford?? You know, the guy we gave up an accomplished major league hitter, (Frazier,) and half the back of our bullpen, (Robertson and Kahnle,) for? Instead we have to try and make Vaughn learn a new position on the fly as well as learn to hit major league pitching?

Cespedes not ready, Colas not official. Basabe, Rutherford, Walker, LuGon and Adolfo disappointments for a variety of reasons. 

If you strip away Madrigal, Vaughn, Crochet, Kopech we're close to Bottom 5-7 system.  We shall see how the two new Cubans fare.  

Padres have traded for half the starters in baseball and still maintain a #6 system overall, having only dealt Patino from their Top Ten. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by caulfield12

[Soxsi75]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Cespedes not ready, Colas not official. Basabe, Rutherford, Walker, LuGon and Adolfo disappointments for a variety of reasons. 

Oh........disappointments. So we "gave" all we did to NY for Rutherford who's been a "disappoinment." Well, forget anyone saying the Sosa/Bell trade was the worst trade in franchise history. At least we got a proven major league player in that one and could be explained. We "gave" NY 3 pieces to win for total complete garbage. 

[joejoesox]

1 minute ago, Soxsi75 said:

Oh........disappointments. So we "gave" all we did to NY for Rutherford who's been a "disappoinment." Well, forget anyone saying the Sosa/Bell trade was the worst trade in franchise history. At least we got a proven major league player in that one and could be explained. We "gave" NY 3 pieces to win for total complete garbage. 

sox talent evaluators have been ass for my entire life

same with their minor league coaches

I mean it says it all when Chris Getz climbs the ladder over everyone else

[caulfield12]

Just now, Soxsi75 said:

Oh........disappointments. So we "gave" all we did to NY for Rutherford who's been a "disappoinment." Well, forget anyone saying the Sosa/Bell trade was the worst trade in franchise history. At least we got a proven major league player in that one and could be explained. We "gave" NY 3 pieces to win for total complete garbage. 

Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie, Shields, Shark deal are among the worst for sure, at least the last 15-20 years.  Dealing Eduardo Escobar while he was simply perceived as a AAAA/utility guy. 

If Vaughn, Robert, Moncada or Anderson get hurt because of playing Vaughn out of position...this is not a season for on the job training.  It's hard enough to hit big league pitching without every defensive miscue dissected to death.  We're simply repeating Mackowiak vs. Anderson 2006 debate. 

[GREEDY]

If they weren't already being touted as a top prospect when acquired... our front office has missed on them (since the rebuild began).  

Outside of Dane Dunning (Who was Washington's #6 Prospect and was a fringe Top 100) I can't think of anyone. 

Even in the international market, we seem to stick to the most well known, developed prospects.  The fans love it.  Because we get names everyone has heard before but I'm not certain it is a recipe for success.  

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by GREEDY

[Soxsi75]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie, Shields, Shark deal are among the worst for sure, at least the last 15-20 years.  Dealing Eduardo Escobar while he was simply perceived as a AAAA/utility guy. 

If Vaughn, Robert, Moncada or Anderson get hurt because of playing Vaughn out of position...this is not a season for on the job training.  It's hard enough to hit big league pitching without every defensive miscue dissected to death.  We're simply repeating Mackowiak vs. Anderson 2006 debate. 

Well, you're right, those were some horribly bad one's too. Wow. Do we have the worst ownerships in the country here in Chicago? I feel cursed that I was bred to be a White Sox and a Bears fan. 

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

If they weren't already being touted as a top prospect when acquired... our front office has missed on them (since the rebuild began).  

Outside of Dane Dunning (Who was Washington's #6 Prospect and was a fringe Top 100) I can't think of anyone.   

 

 

 

The only examples are basically relievers like Bummer, Marshall, Foster, Heuer... and fringe guys like Omar Narvaez.   Mazara was a predictable scouting failure.  

We have seemingly failed with Lopez. Fulmer gone. Collins has struggled mightily and gets one last shot. Burger situation a combination of factors. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by caulfield12

[yesterday333]

11 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

Oh........disappointments. So we "gave" all we did to NY for Rutherford who's been a "disappoinment." Well, forget anyone saying the Sosa/Bell trade was the worst trade in franchise history. At least we got a proven major league player in that one and could be explained. We "gave" NY 3 pieces to win for total complete garbage. 

You realize how bad our team was right? Having an accomplished major league hitter did nothing for us. I guess we should’ve kept all our major league players and tried to win but kept losing... they are called prospects for a reason. We gave them a bunch of meh that weren’t doing anything for anything for us and leave soon and we got players who had a chance of being good when we would be good. Don’t be dense about the rebuild...

[yesterday333]

Prospects fail in every system... even highly rated prospects. This isn’t unique to just us people.

[GREEDY]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

The only examples are basically relievers like Bummer, Marshall, Foster, Heuer... and fringe guys like Omar Narvaez.   Mazara was a predictable scouting failure.  

We have seemingly failed with Lopez. Fulmer gone.  Collins has struggled mightily and gets one last shot. Burger situation a combination of factors. 

I was focused more outside of the draft. 

The easily could have spent a little money over the past 5 years eating contracts in exchange for prospects.  That could have added serious depth to our organization. 

Narvaez traded for a reliever that was already being paid market value while there were several free agent relievers available screamed "we think narvaez overachieved"... newsflash: they were wrong. 

 

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

This happens when they repeatedly draft corners instead of middles.  

[Soxsi75]

8 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

You realize how bad our team was right? Having an accomplished major league hitter did nothing for us. I guess we should’ve kept all our major league players and tried to win but kept losing... they are called prospects for a reason. We gave them a bunch of meh that weren’t doing anything for anything for us and leave soon and we got players who had a chance of being good when we would be good. Don’t be dense about the rebuild...

Look at my original post. I thought we were stockpiling talent in the rebuild. We didn't.  There were all these "disappointments." The idea of trades like this are for one team trying to win now to trade for players to help them win now and the other team to try to win in the future. I'm not against making trades like this, so don't put words in my mouth by saying "we should've kept all our major league players and tried to win but kept losing." But then it comes down to player evaluation. Who in the organization thought Blake Rutherford would turn out to be a strong major leaguer? Whoever did sure was wrong. And it's not just Rutherford. There were, as pointed out by others, many other "disappointments." Like I said, I thought we were stockpiling talent in the minors with this rebuild. We didn't. We failed. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Soxsi75

[Chicago White Sox]

One consideration here is that our player development function was well behind the times for years and appears to have caught up quite a bit under Getz, even if it took a long-ass time.  We’ve already seen some success stories on the pitching side (Stiever, Lambert, etc.) and hopefully the position player side will soon follow.  We invested a ton of draft capital in Collins, Sheets, & Burger and these guys have gone from likely lost causes (which killed our depth) to possible contributors.  Obviously it’s way too early to call any of them successes, but at least we’ve seen work / changes Collins & Sheets have made to address weaknesses and improve their chances to contribute.  The real test will be all the young guys at Kanny and to a lesser extent Winston-Salem.  If we can develop enough of those guys into potentially serviceable players we may finally start seeing an acceptable level of depth in the upper minors.

[yesterday333]

3 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

Look at my original post. I thought we were stockpiling talent in the rebuild. We didn't.  There were all these "disappointments." 

EVERYONE has “disappointments” Lots of top prospects disappoint. It is very silly to expect all the talent we acquired to succeed. 

[Chicago White Sox]

30 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

sox talent evaluators have been ass for my entire life

same with their minor league coaches

I mean it says it all when Chris Getz climbs the ladder over everyone else

We had some great stretches of talent evaluation IMO, I personally think player development has been the larger issue over the past decade.

[Soxsi75]

6 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

EVERYONE has “disappointments” Lots of top prospects disappoint. It is very silly to expect all the talent we acquired to succeed. 

I'm not asking for ALL of it. But are you going to argue that MOST of it hasn't? When one injury like this happens and so the result is we have NO realistic options? Hey man, I'll be for the first to admit I'm wrong if everything turns out rosy in the end and we make the playoffs this year. But if we don't.....and this idiocy by Jimenez is a major reason why not.....then my criticisms are warranted. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Soxsi75

[Chicago White Sox]

43 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

This happens when they repeatedly draft corners instead of middles.  

This is also a good point.  The system has been way too thin up the middle for far too long and that also needs to change for us to be on par with other clubs.  The problem there is the best way to gain a critical mass of said prospects is signing teens out of Latin America and that’s no bueno with Uncle Jerry.  Hopefully we start taking some HS bats in the 1st round at least to help address the problem.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is also a good point.  The system has been way too thin up the middle for far too long and that also needs to change for us to be on par with other clubs.  The problem there is the best way to gain a critical mass of said prospects is signing teens out of Latin America and that’s no bueno with Uncle Jerry.  Hopefully we start taking some college bats in the 1st round at least to help address the problem.

See Sheets, Collins, Burger, Walker, etc. 

[Timmy U]

I think Rutherford is probably a bust, which is too bad.  The pandemic did not help. Hard to say much about Sheets, Adolfo, Gonzalez, etc. when they didn’t play last year.  I think there’s a solid chance one of them steps up by the middle of the year to help out.  Maybe it’s Cespedes.  What is clear is that the trades brought in way better talent than the high draft picks during the rebuild, except for Rutherford.

[yesterday333]

1 minute ago, Soxsi75 said:

I'm not asking for ALL of it. But are you going to argue that MOST of it hasn't? When one injury like this happens and so the result is we have NO realistic options?

Most teams when they have an injury to a top player have to go outside their org to get realistic replacements. Not very many teams have major league starters ready to contribute to a playoff team just sitting in the minors. We have Luery and Engel we is pretty decent for back up OFs.

[caulfield12]

The Padres have Nola, Kim, Profar, Jake C. , CJ Abrams (top ten MiLB prospect overall) and Tatis for up the middle or OF/C/1B.

They were able to trade depth in Urias for another up the middle piece in Grisham. 

We have Anderson, Madrigal and Leury.  Mendick is just a fringe player. Not unlike Yolmer Sanchez. 

[Soxsi75]

3 minutes ago, yesterday333 said:

Most teams when they have an injury to a top player have to go outside their org to get realistic replacements. Not very many teams have major league starters ready to contribute to a playoff team just sitting in the minors. We have Luery and Engel we is pretty decent for back up OFs.

OK Fair enough. I agree with you there. Now the question is, WILL we go outside our organization?? Why do I have a feeling we won't. Garcia and Engel are decent BACKUPS. They're not everyday players. 

[daggins]

The Sox seem to be quite poor at drafting and developing position players, which is why most of our big "hits" in that area have been pitchers and international players that are almost MLB ready on signing. That, combined with an approach to free agency that I will charitably call "frugal", has put us in the situation we find ourselves.