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White Sox are still a World Series Contender


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Just now, Dominikk85 said:

Losing Eloy hurts but I think that maybe costs the team like 2.5 wins or so. 

 

With eloy:

LF:Eloy: 3 war, DH:Vaughn: 2 war= 5

Without Eloy 

LF: Vaughn 1.5 war (defense hurts him more than DH penalty most likely), DH: collins/yermin: 1 war=2.5

Sox should still be able to at least get s WC spot if not win the division with 2.5 wins less, the twins and Indians will have injuries too. 

 

 

We just got eloy back by the all star break now!

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1 minute ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

Due to your knowledge of the situation or the fact his doctors are saying 3.5 months which is mid July 

Not knowledge of this situation but knowledge of similar injuries in athletes I've worked with.

3 months is a good time line to return to activities for his left arm but pretty aggressive for returning to the MLB anywhere near his previous level of performance.

Anything is possible but this seems too aggressive for a timeline.

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45 minutes ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

Jesus how about you crazy folk just let normal people enjoy baseball and you can go run off with the other crazy people. 

If me pointing out the obvious and potentially intentional failings of the White Sox executive team prevents your from enjoying baseball, then you're the one that's crazy -- because those things aren't even remotely connected, and a "normal" person could see that.

I am still going to watch the team and hope they win, and will enjoy it if they do. That fact that I root for the team doesn't change the fact that the FO assfucked the fanbase. In life (not just baseball), it's important to be able to hold two related but non-contradictory thoughts in one's head without one wiping the other from existence.

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9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not knowledge of this situation but knowledge of similar injuries in athletes I've worked with.

3 months is a good time line to return to activities for his left arm but pretty aggressive for returning to the MLB anywhere near his previous level of performance.

Anything is possible but this seems too aggressive for a timeline.

Do you think with the resources they have it makes it more possible ?

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12 minutes ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

Do you think with the resources they have it makes it more possible ?

Not really. Healing is healing. He will be immobilized for 4-8 for healing. The muscle will atrophy and get really weak in that time. Strength only comes back so fast (unless it's chemically enhanced). So the 3 months is probably minimal just to get the strength back.

Unless the diagnosis significantly changed, it a really aggressive time frame.

Edit: After thinking about it,it's possible that there was too much edema in the area and they couldn't get good imaging and now that it's gone done they got better pictures.

Edited by ptatc
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28 minutes ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

I just think if we win you guys will complain. If we lose you will say u told you so. You’re  just miserable.

This is by far the most bad faith argument made by people like you.

Why the hell would I complain if the Sox win? If anything I complained less than 99% of posters last year, because i was enjoying a winning team. Weird.

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6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is by far the most bad faith argument made by people like you.

Why the hell would I complain if the Sox win? If anything I complained less than 99% of posters last year, because i was enjoying a winning team. Weird.

Mainly because we have a team built to win and your just chirping to chirp 

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4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I literally explained by the front office has come up short in my early post. If you want to refute that with facts, I'm all ears. 

They built a top 10 offense, a top 2 bullpen and a top ten pitching staff. Really good young core with more great Cubans coming in. 

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20 minutes ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

Mainly because we have a team built to win and your just chirping to chirp 

America is great already.  America can be even better, it can certainly improve.  Two credible viewpoints with no simplistic resolution in sight. 

Both sides believe wholeheartedly in their viewpoints...those convictions won't easily change or waver. 

But I think the analogy stands up fairly well...especially the argument about "you don't love your country, so you should just leave."  We hear the equivalent on the baseball side of things all the time. That's also quite similar to this current litmus test thing we have going on about what constitutes being a great White Sox fan.  That we should be content or praise more what we already have just doesn't sit well to many long-suffering White Sox fans watching the team make a mint the last 5 years while asking for our continuing patience. 

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1 hour ago, ptatc said:

This goes back to the fundamental reason of why people are fans. Are you a fan of baseball,  the White Sox or winning. 

Can you enjoy a game without your team winning?

Can you do it year after year after year?

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1 hour ago, RagahRagah said:

Can you do it year after year after year?

I actually have better perspective in years like 2017 than when they're trying to win. I get really meatbally during competitive times. I tend to lose perspective when they're good. 

Anyway, I talked it out with my buddies and I don't feel so bad about the Sox anymore. 

World Series? Probably not. But they have a good chance to make the playoffs and maybe get to the ALCS. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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It's time for the pessimists and optimists on Sox Talk to call a truce and let the games dictate how the season will go. 

I'm as bummed as anyone that the Sox lost 2 outfielders to "hero" plays in spring training!!  There should be NO "hero" plays in spring training, and that should be drilled into every player until it's muscle memory.  

It seems to me that the different perspectives on the team boil down to this.

It seems the naysayers want an established team, but for the Sox to get there, they have to play and lean on their young players to develop them. The Sox have a lot of those players. How well they do will decide the season. 

Look at all the guys who are rookies or have only a shortened year under their belt: Vaughn, Collins, Robert, Crochet, Kopech, Heuer, Foster, Madrigal. Mercedes (if he makes the team).  The naysayers look at this group and see risk and failure; the optimists look at this group and see exciting potential. 

So much of the argument over the winter was having the naysayers demand the Sox sign a bunch of marginal vets -- although the most demanding somehow expected the Sox to be players for George Springer and Trevor Bauer -- so they wouldn't have to rely on so much youth. The optimists like me felt like signing vets to block the development of these players would have been a mistake. If they are good players, and I believe they are, then the Sox needed to start playing them so they can develop this year, and be even better next year. 

The injury to Eloy heightened this problem, with some wanting a replacement vet. But the Sox seemingly have decided to continue to bet on their youth, moving Vaughn to left field and opening more ABs for Zack Collins.

We won't really know who's right until they start playing the games. 

From my standpoint, I'd just much rather watch a Sox team brimming with talented youth improving before our eyes, even if they struggle a bit, than one with multiple has-been vets filling in. You might call Adam Eaton a has-been veteran fill-in, but he could be the only one in the regular lineup, rotation, or bullpen. 

The Eloy loss is huge. The Engel injury is annoying. But for those clear negatives, there have been a lot of positives out of camp.

1. Carlos Rodon looks like a major league pitcher. 

2. Michael Kopech and Garrett Crochet make the Sox pen versatile and dominant.

3. Zack Collins looks like a major league hitter, with plate discipline and power. He might hit as well or better than Andrew Vaughn out of the gate. 

4. Yoan Moncada looks to have returned to form. 

5. Adam Eaton looks like a vast improvement over last year's RF. 

6. The Tony LaRussa naysayers who predicted disaster appear already to be clearly wrong. 

7. The core strengths of the team -- Anderson, Abreu, Grandal, Giolito, Keuchel, Lynn, the bullpen -- still look super solid, though they are missing a special hitter in Eloy. 

The main mystery player is probably Luis Robert. If/when he explodes as a hitter, look out!

The Sox will be okay. They will be competitive. 

With so much youth and Eloy's injury, it's probably a stretch to put them in the World Series this year. But they are coming. And no one is going to want to face them. 

GO SOX!!

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2 hours ago, ptatc said:

I have haven't I? I've been a fan since the mid-70's. 

Me too. I enjoy listening to games and rooting for the players. When an expansion team wins more World Series in their first ten years of existence than your favorite team has won in a century, built by an exiled former Sox executive, it's been a rough 45 years, and a brutal past postseason century for older White Sox fans. I'm really only critical of ownership/management, nearly all players play to the best of their health and abilities.

When or lose, I enjoy listening to the games (or watching at a bar or at the park) and watching the highlights. You can enjoy baseball win or lose, a game, the season, a player, the team. I can like an 70 win team as much as a 90 win team, if the players are likable as they have been under Ricky's tenure. Sure I want the Sox to win, but if they don't, that's part of life.

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3 hours ago, VAfan said:

It's time for the pessimists and optimists on Sox Talk to call a truce and let the games dictate how the season will go. 

I'm as bummed as anyone that the Sox lost 2 outfielders to "hero" plays in spring training!!  There should be NO "hero" plays in spring training, and that should be drilled into every player until it's muscle memory.  

It seems to me that the different perspectives on the team boil down to this.

It seems the naysayers want an established team, but for the Sox to get there, they have to play and lean on their young players to develop them. The Sox have a lot of those players. How well they do will decide the season. 

Look at all the guys who are rookies or have only a shortened year under their belt: Vaughn, Collins, Robert, Crochet, Kopech, Heuer, Foster, Madrigal. Mercedes (if he makes the team).  The naysayers look at this group and see risk and failure; the optimists look at this group and see exciting potential. 

So much of the argument over the winter was having the naysayers demand the Sox sign a bunch of marginal vets -- although the most demanding somehow expected the Sox to be players for George Springer and Trevor Bauer -- so they wouldn't have to rely on so much youth. The optimists like me felt like signing vets to block the development of these players would have been a mistake. If they are good players, and I believe they are, then the Sox needed to start playing them so they can develop this year, and be even better next year. 

The injury to Eloy heightened this problem, with some wanting a replacement vet. But the Sox seemingly have decided to continue to bet on their youth, moving Vaughn to left field and opening more ABs for Zack Collins.

We won't really know who's right until they start playing the games. 

From my standpoint, I'd just much rather watch a Sox team brimming with talented youth improving before our eyes, even if they struggle a bit, than one with multiple has-been vets filling in. You might call Adam Eaton a has-been veteran fill-in, but he could be the only one in the regular lineup, rotation, or bullpen. 

The Eloy loss is huge. The Engel injury is annoying. But for those clear negatives, there have been a lot of positives out of camp.

1. Carlos Rodon looks like a major league pitcher. 

2. Michael Kopech and Garrett Crochet make the Sox pen versatile and dominant.

3. Zack Collins looks like a major league hitter, with plate discipline and power. He might hit as well or better than Andrew Vaughn out of the gate. 

4. Yoan Moncada looks to have returned to form. 

5. Adam Eaton looks like a vast improvement over last year's RF. 

6. The Tony LaRussa naysayers who predicted disaster appear already to be clearly wrong. 

7. The core strengths of the team -- Anderson, Abreu, Grandal, Giolito, Keuchel, Lynn, the bullpen -- still look super solid, though they are missing a special hitter in Eloy. 

The main mystery player is probably Luis Robert. If/when he explodes as a hitter, look out!

The Sox will be okay. They will be competitive. 

With so much youth and Eloy's injury, it's probably a stretch to put them in the World Series this year. But they are coming. And no one is going to want to face them. 

GO SOX!!

Nobody wants marginal veterans, but what else can one expect looking at FA moves under Hahn?

I don’t think anyone realistically expected Bauer, Springer or Ozuna...but was Joc Pederson too much of an ask, too?

TLR won’t be tested until the first controversial situation with Tim Anderson, a losing streak, or something completely unpredictable as it usually the case.

We can’t draw any conclusion on Collins, Merceds or Vaughn until June 1st.   Same with Rodon, and likely Cease, Kopech and Crochet’s health/performance as well.

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1 hour ago, RagahRagah said:

Good for you. Eventually most fans would like to see wins. And blind optimism seems odd in the face of being used to mediocrity and worse.

It's not optimism. It's not saying they are going to be good regardless of the team. It's not pessimism and only looking for the problems of the team. It's just enjoying the game.  Of course every fan wants to see wins. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game for the game.

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