Which player will play the most innings in Left Field for the 2021 Chicago White Sox?

[South Side Hit Men]

The poll is your prediction as to who will play the most innings in left field.

It is NOT a referendum on your preferred LF option.

Poll closes before first pitch Opening Day.

 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Andrew Vaughn or a trade. Love the idea of Haniger, if the Mariners want to move him with Kelenic and Rodriguez coming in the first month or so.

[caulfield12]

40 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Andrew Vaughn or a trade. Love the idea of Haniger, if the Mariners want to move him with Kelenic and Rodriguez coming in the first month or so.

They’re not moving Rodriguez that quickly...

[Bob Sacamano]

42 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Andrew Vaughn or a trade. Love the idea of Haniger, if the Mariners want to move him with Kelenic and Rodriguez coming in the first month or so.

I like the idea. Maybe when Kelenic comes up and after Lewis comes off the IL.

Edited March 29, 2021 by manbearpuig

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, manbearpuig said:

I like the idea. Maybe when Kelenic comes up and after Lewis comes off the IL.

Vaughn seems like an obvious 1st choice but how long will it last ? New position plus non Spring Training pitching is quite a load to bear. Leury is a pretty good bet since he will make the team but he is better as a RH hitter so not ideal against RHP . Engel should get time once he is healthy  . Williams is a bit of a long shot since he may not make the team and if he does might not be there when Engel comes back, but might be the best LH option who could provide some pop. Hamilton is a dynamo on the bases and a valuable fielder but the stick doesn't play .

If no one grabs the bull by the horns the Sox might have to make a trade  or see who was DFA'd before ST ends . Would waiver claims be considered a Non Cuban Free Agent  or Trade acquisition ? If not you need another category.The answer to this question may not be answered until we pile up the stats at the end of the season.

[Chick Mercedes]

If they bring in somebody else ittll just hold back collins ultimately. They probably want to give him a full run at it

[vilehoopster]

I am going to be my usual overly-optimistic self. 

I think it's gonna be Engel. He's going to take over there the second or so week of April and make the Sox wonder if they ever want to move him out of there.

I think he's going to go there, and of course, play great defense. 

Also, I think he is going to be surprisingly solid with his bat: Hitting around .275 and about 15 or so home runs, moving guys over on the bases, bunting, and stealing bases. 

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

I am going to be my usual overly-optimistic self. 

I think it's gonna be Engel. He's going to take over there the second or so week of April and make the Sox wonder if they ever want to move him out of there.

I think he's going to go there, and of course, play great defense. 

Also, I think he is going to be surprisingly solid with his bat: Hitting around .275 and about 15 or so home runs, moving guys over on the bases, bunting, and stealing bases. 

 

 

 

Every year he has been with the Sox he has been better than the year before. Even though the sample size was small in 2020 if he could sustain that for a full season he would be the front runner easily . Good extra base power, speed and defense . No one really trusts him to be that good but maybe he can be . Wouldn't be the 1st time someone has been a late bloomer. Good defense and good offense is always very attractive .

[raBBit]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Every year he has been with the Sox he has been better than the year before. Even though the sample size was small in 2020 if he could sustain that for a full season he would be the front runner easily . Good extra base power, speed and defense . No one really trusts him to be that good but maybe he can be . Wouldn't be the 1st time someone has been a late bloomer. Good defense and good offense is always very attractive .

Even if what you say is true, he has still never hit right-handed pitching. Until he does that, he's a really nice role player / 4th outfielder.

[ChiSox59]

I honestly don't know.

I went with Leury, just because I don't think they're going to expose Engel to RHP everyday.  Engel play against LHP, but he may be in RF and Leury in LF those days with Eaton on the bench.  

Still far from sold on the Vaughn LF bit, but if he leads the teal in the LF innings this year, I think that is a good development for the future.  

[bmags]

Engel hit RHP better than LHP last year, obviously it was just 60 PAs.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Even if what you say is true, he has still never hit right-handed pitching. Until he does that, he's a really nice role player / 4th outfielder.

I wouldn't say never since in 2020 he was actually better against RHP than LHP. Small sample size of course but its is indicative of how he has improved as a hitter.

[raBBit]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I wouldn't say never since in 2020 he was actually better against RHP than LHP. Small sample size of course but its is indicative of how he has improved as a hitter.

He really wasn't. You can manipulate small sample sizes to make a point. He has less than 60 PA's against RHP last year. Against RHP, He struck out 28% of the time and walked 3% of the time. If his BABIP wasn't .380, he'd be awful. He has a sub 600 OPS against RHP in his career. 

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, bmags said:

Engel hit RHP better than LHP last year, obviously it was just 60 PAs.

But with a ridiculously high BABIP and horrible K & BB rates.  I wouldn’t bank on him replicating that OPS against RHP going forward.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, raBBit said:

He really wasn't. You can manipulate small sample sizes to make a point. He has less than 60 PA's against RHP last year. Against RHP, He struck out 28% of the time and walked 3% of the time. If his BABIP wasn't .380, he'd be awful. He has a sub 600 OPS against RHP in his career. 

Whoops, should of read this post first, but 100% agree with you raBBit.

[raBBit]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Whoops, should of read this post first, but 100% agree with you raBBit.

Yeah Engel had a nice combination of taking a step forward and luck last year. I still like him to continue to improve but there is no evidence he belongs in the lineup against RHP as you  basically said in your other post.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But with a ridiculously high BABIP and horrible K & BB rates.  I wouldn’t bank on him replicating that OPS against RHP going forward.

OK, so he may not be a 130 wRC+ player vs righties, otherwise he would be one of the best LF in the AL with his defense. But 28% k rate doesn't make me that squeemish. Yoan was 37% from his weakest side last year. The good news was Engel was doing stuff like making more contact in the zone and chasing less. 

I don't think Engel will be a plus hitter from the right side but I do think he's offensively miles ahead of where he was 2 years ago, really ever since the second half of 2019. So he was a 60 wRC+ guy in 2019 from the Right side. Last year he put up doubel that. Is it in the middle at 90 wRC+? That would make him very playable if he really is close to this above average hitter from the left side.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

He really wasn't. You can manipulate small sample sizes to make a point. He has less than 60 PA's against RHP last year. Against RHP, He struck out 28% of the time and walked 3% of the time. If his BABIP wasn't .380, he'd be awful. He has a sub 600 OPS against RHP in his career. 

Agree to disagree. Despite the K's and lack of walks (he doesn't walk much period) the batting average, slugging and OPS , OPS+ and wRC were all good. Again I am not advocating putting him in starting lineup permanently . Just saying he has indeed improved every year as a hitter and IF it continues he's a much better choice to get OF time than Williams, Hamilton or if Vaughn isn't up to the task of defending the position or needs more time in the minors as a hitter. Just about anyone you put out there among the in house options will probably have a high K rate. Vaughn would draw more walks to be sure but he is nowhere close to the speed and defensive capabilities of Engel. At this point in time Engel may be the equal of Vaughn as a hitter  except for OBP. That may sound outlandish but we don't have much to go on currently.

[raBBit]

10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Agree to disagree. Despite the K's and lack of walks (he doesn't walk much period) the batting average, slugging and OPS , OPS+ and wRC were all good. Again I am not advocating putting him in starting lineup permanently . Just saying he has indeed improved every year as a hitter and IF it continues he's a much better choice to get OF time than Williams, Hamilton or if Vaughn isn't up to the task of defending the position or needs more time in the minors as a hitter. Just about anyone you put out there among the in house options will probably have a high K rate. Vaughn would draw more walks to be sure but he is nowhere close to the speed and defensive capabilities of Engel. At this point in time Engel may be the equal of Vaughn as a hitter  except for OBP. That may sound outlandish but we don't have much to go on currently.

Madrigal may be the equal hitter of Abreu except for power. 

[bmags]

I think the crux of this is mainly people thinking Engel v. Leury. Leury also is terrible against righties, and Engel >> Leury defensively.

So at least for me I'm not comparing Engel to some hypothetical average outfielder that we don't currently have.

And once we get there, the question is just around whether you believe in vaughn as a LF in a real way. I'd imagine that Vaughn is a better hitter vs righties than Engel and Leury and also think he should be better vs. lefties than both.

But he could be so bad in left field it makes it a wash.

I wouldn't want to rely on Engel in LF full time, but of what we have I think he's better than Leury and just don't know what to make of vaughn. But I voted Vaughn because they seem reasonably committed here.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Madrigal may be the equal hitter of Abreu except for power. 

All else being equal I would expect Vaughn to draw more walks than Engel. Power encompasses many categories including total bases ,slugging , OPS ,OPS + wRc, HR's doubles and triples ,where you hit in the lineup etc. Yes walks encompass a lot of those things too but do walks and Vaughns defense make him a better choice than Engel out there ? We will find out .  

Apparently you choose to be snarky with me based on one thing I said and not the overall content of my message which was echoed by bmags . Try at least to stay on topic with who might play the most in the OF in the absence of Eloy unless you are afraid you might be wrong. I have my opinion and you have yours but one of us remained civil on the topic until you decided to be an asshole.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

25 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think the crux of this is mainly people thinking Engel v. Leury. Leury also is terrible against righties, and Engel >> Leury defensively.

So at least for me I'm not comparing Engel to some hypothetical average outfielder that we don't currently have.

And once we get there, the question is just around whether you believe in vaughn as a LF in a real way. I'd imagine that Vaughn is a better hitter vs righties than Engel and Leury and also think he should be better vs. lefties than both.

But he could be so bad in left field it makes it a wash.

I wouldn't want to rely on Engel in LF full time, but of what we have I think he's better than Leury and just don't know what to make of vaughn. But I voted Vaughn because they seem reasonably committed here.

I also voted Vaughn for the same reasons but also like you don't know what to make of Vaughn either. I'd definitely prefer him as a 1B/DH . His plate discipline is a big plus but he's going to K a lot too.

Edited March 29, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[raBBit]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All else being equal I would expect Vaughn to draw more walks than Engel. Power encompasses many categories including total bases ,slugging , OPS ,OPS + wRc, HR's doubles and triples ,where you hit in the lineup etc. Yes walks encompass a lot of those things too but do walks and Vaughns defense make him a better choice than Engel out there ? We will find out .  

 Apparently you choose to be snarky with me based on one thing I said and not the overall content of my message which was echoed by bmags . Try at least to stay on topic with who might play the most in the OF in the absence of Eloy unless you are afraid you might be wrong. I have my opinion and you have yours but one of us remained civil on the topic until you decided to be an asshole.

I wasn't being snarky but there is no legitimate comparison between Engel and Vaughn. I provided you all the numbers that show Engel really wasn't as effective against righties as it might seem and you just said agree to disagree even though that is what the numbers would show any objective analyst. OPS, OPS+, etc. are all inflated by an unsustainable BABIP in a small sample so they don't negate the luck he had. Additionally, his peripherals are awful further supporting the unsustainability of the SSS BABIP. You're comfortable using his splits over a 60 game sample to support your point (58 PAs), but you won't use the statistics over Engel's greater body of work because they would show he's ineffective against RHP as I said. I don't really need to address that argument because the holes in it are pretty straightforward. If you're not someone who is willing to use stats in your analysis, I am not going to try and change you. 

I also don't think bmags echoed your point at all. He seemingly responded to the topic at hand and basically said "Engel is preferable to Leury, Vaughn is largely unknown as a defender but seems like the most likely answer to the thread." That doesn't run contrary to my point or support yours and I think most would agree with his post. If pressed on the issue, I think bmags would side with my side of the argument over yours because he is willing to use metrics in his analytical process.

Edited March 29, 2021 by raBBit

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

37 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Madrigal may be the equal hitter of Abreu except for power. 

Whatcha mean?

[raBBit]

3 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Whatcha mean?

He was saying that Vaughn and Engel are equal hitters if you take away the OBP. A lot of players are similar when you take away their best attribute. Paul Konerko in current form today is Billy Hamilton except for the speed. I would never look at things this way.