Garrett Crochet conversion to starter in 2022 Thread

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Are you saying that Crochet can't become a start because they start him in the bullpen? I would disagree. Many pitchers have started in the pen and gone on to be starters.

I'm saying in general it's a bad idea, it can work sometimes but it's not smart, and the scenario with both Crochet and Kopech makes it even less likely to succeed here. Many pitchers have been put in the bullpen and never come out of it.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

But how if we keep pitching him 1 inning?

The season hasn't even started.  He is going to have limited innings this year.  Hopefully he is in the pen working somewhat sparingly the first 4-6 weeks.  Slowly starts to work a little longer outtings.  As mentioned above, maybe piggybacking off another starter.  And then maybe goes back to AAA for a few starts to work up to 4-5 innings.  There are ways to do it.  *In no way is this an endorsement of what they are doing with Kopech.  I hate it*

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think you answered your own question in this post.  If someone goes down, Lopez fills in while Kopech gets stretched out.  

Another option would be piggybacking a mixture of Lopez/Kopech/Crochet to stretch out Kopech more slowly until he's ready to go 5+.  

I am confident the Sox still see Kopech as a SP, and while I hate what they're doing I refuse to believe he won't be starting at some point this season.  

Yeah, if someone goes down long-term. If it's TJS for someone, well yeah you send Kopech down for 2-3 weeks to get stretched out.

If Keuchel's back is spasming so you put him on the IL, you're not going to stretch Kopech out for that. Then that injury drags on for a few weeks longer than you thought it would, and suddenly it's July and Kopech is still pitching an inning every 4 or 5 days.

[ptatc]

24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm saying in general it's a bad idea, it can work sometimes but it's not smart, and the scenario with both Crochet and Kopech makes it even less likely to succeed here. Many pitchers have been put in the bullpen and never come out of it.

It's true many stay. However, the plan with these two is to progress them to starters. In Kopech's case he just needs to build innings because he hasn't pitched competitively in 2 years. He will be a starter eventually. In Crochet's case, no one knows if he can handle a starters load so he needs to slowly build up and see what happens.

In both cases, neither could be a full time starter this year. So the choices were to be bullpen guys in the minors or bullpen guys in the majors. I personally would not like the option of having them be starters in the minors and shut them down really early in the season. The advantages of the MLB are they continue to learn how to out MLB hitters and help the MLB team. I 

Edited April 1, 2021 by ptatc

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, if someone goes down long-term. If it's TJS for someone, well yeah you send Kopech down for 2-3 weeks to get stretched out.

If Keuchel's back is spasming so you put him on the IL, you're not going to stretch Kopech out for that. Then that injury drags on for a few weeks longer than you thought it would, and suddenly it's July and Kopech is still pitching an inning every 4 or 5 days.

The problem with this is that his season ends really early due to the innings limit. It would work but don't count on him for the playoffs.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, if someone goes down long-term. If it's TJS for someone, well yeah you send Kopech down for 2-3 weeks to get stretched out.

If Keuchel's back is spasming so you put him on the IL, you're not going to stretch Kopech out for that. Then that injury drags on for a few weeks longer than you thought it would, and suddenly it's July and Kopech is still pitching an inning every 4 or 5 days.

Yeah.  They'll figure it out.  THeir stated plan is to stretch him out by working up to a multi-inning reliever role.  Hopefully by the time we reach the spot on the calendar that it makes sense to convert him to a SP to keep his innings where they need to be, but also allow him to pitch into the fall, he'll be ready for it.  If not, and he needs to go to Charlotte to make a couple starts and we have live with a Stiever/Lambert start or two, so be it.

I don't like the plan. Kopech should be at the alt site, and then AAA working short starts until late May when they stretch him out a bit more.  But it is what it is.  You're always harping on how fucked up it is when teams manipulate service time.  They aren't doing that here (even tho they most definitely should be).  It'll work out.  No point in just constantly assuming everything will go awry.  

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah.  They'll figure it out.  THeir stated plan is to stretch him out by working up to a multi-inning reliever role.  Hopefully by the time we reach the spot on the calendar that it makes sense to convert him to a SP to keep his innings where they need to be, but also allow him to pitch into the fall, he'll be ready for it.  If not, and he needs to go to Charlotte to make a couple starts and we have live with a Stiever/Lambert start or two, so be it.

I don't like the plan. Kopech should be at the alt site, and then AAA working short starts until late May when they stretch him out a bit more.  But it is what it is.  You're always harping on how fucked up it is when teams manipulate service time.  They aren't doing that here (even tho they most definitely should be).  It'll work out.  No point in just constantly assuming everything will go awry.  

I am?

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I am?

Thought so, but maybe not.  Could be confusing you with someone else.  

[Balta1701]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Thought so, but maybe not.  Could be confusing you with someone else.  

In general I like playing the strategy. I think what the Padres did with Tatis was extremely bold, I think Yoan Moncada's agent is a fool, the extensions for Eloy and Robert were interesting and creative, the idea that Giolito was going to sign a 5 year deal was silly, etc. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

In general I like playing the strategy. I think what the Padres did with Tatis was extremely bold, I think Yoan Moncada's agent is a fool, the extensions for Eloy and Robert were interesting and creative, the idea that Giolito was going to sign a 5 year deal was silly, etc. 

Moncada's agent may not be a fool if Moncada is truly 2018 and 2020 Moncada. Still a question mark there

[Balta1701]

Just now, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Moncada's agent may not be a fool if Moncada is truly 2018 and 2020 Moncada. Still a question mark there

Even if that's true he should have gotten a much larger guarantee for giving up 2 years of free agency after already being established. The comparison here is literally Tatis - both #1 prospects, Moncada had played 2 1/3 seasons while Tatis had played 2, Moncada literally had more WAR accumulated when signing his deal than Tatis, Tatis got $300 million guaranteed and Moncada got $70. But that's enough derailing this thread. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Even if that's true he should have gotten a much larger guarantee for giving up 2 years of free agency after already being established. The comparison here is literally Tatis - both #1 prospects, Moncada had played 2 1/3 seasons while Tatis had played 2, Moncada literally had more WAR accumulated when signing his deal than Tatis, Tatis got $300 million guaranteed and Moncada got $70. But that's enough derailing this thread. 

They aren't comparable what so ever. 

[SoxSteve]

Lets  trade him along with Vaughn and Madrigal, lol.

[SpringfieldFan]

I am reminded of what a frustrated coworker once said, "If the boss asks you to step in and clean toilets watch out because if you are really good at it he might decide you're too valuable cleaning toilets".

[Rounding_Third]

The narrative I've heard throughout the Sox org is that Crocket's amateur career is as a starter.  Baseball Ref contradicts this in a big way.  So I painstakingly went though all of Tennessee's 2018 & 2019 box scores to verify and Baseball Ref is correct.  His Tennessee bio also says he started 11 games in 2018.  Their own 2018 box scores contradict that. as well.  Of the 12 starts, he got pounded in about half of them and most were 6 innings or less.  Some of those game stats overlapped.  Most of his RP appearances were outstanding  His moderately high career era is mostly a result of his starts.  Over the two years, Tenn also had a few true SP's that had double Crochet's innings.

What am I missing here with the SP narrative?  At least at Tenn, don't know anything about his high school stats.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Rounding_Third
tryin to delete 2nd graph, cant

[ptatc]

43 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

The narrative I've heard throughout the Sox org is that Crocket's amateur career is as a starter.  Baseball Ref contradicts this in a big way.  So I painstakingly went though all of Tennessee's 2018 & 2019 box scores to verify and Baseball Ref is correct.  His Tennessee bio also says he started 11 games in 2018.  Their own 2018 box scores contradict that. as well.  Of the 12 starts, he got pounded in about half of them and most were 6 innings or less.  Some of those game stats overlapped.  Most of his RP appearances were outstanding  His moderately high career era is mostly a result of his starts.  Over the two years, Tenn also had a few true SP's that had double Crochet's innings.

What am I missing here with the SP narrative?  At least at Tenn, don't know anything about his high school stats.

I think everyone knows he wasn't a starter in college. That's the primary issue. The plan was from him to be a starter his last year but COVID got in the way. The Sox are trying to turn him into a starter. No one knows for sure if he can do it so it will be a longer process than most.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

23 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think everyone knows he wasn't a starter in college. That's the primary issue. The plan was from him to be a starter his last year but COVID got in the way. The Sox are trying to turn him into a starter. No one knows for sure if he can do it so it will be a longer process than most.

especially longer when you don't stretch him out at all.

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

especially longer when you don't stretch him out at all.

They cant stretch him out this year very much. A 60 innings limit or that of a typical reliever is about all he should do.

Edited April 1, 2021 by ptatc

[Y2Jimmy0]

20 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'd love to hear @Y2Jimmy0 on his thoughts with Crochet and Kopech 

I understand it. Don't want to waste innings at an alternate site when the club is trying to win. I have my doubts about how it works long-term though. There's no doubt in my mind that Kopech is a starter in 2022 but I feel Crochet will be a reliever forever at this point. He won't have the innings base to convert to starting and you'd need to pull him from an effective bullpen role to do it while trying to win championships. 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I understand it. Don't want to waste innings at an alternate site when the club is trying to win. I have my doubts about how it works long-term though. There's no doubt in my mind that Kopech is a starter in 2022 but I feel Crochet will be a reliever forever at this point. He won't have the innings base to convert to starting and you'd need to pull him from an effective bullpen role to do it while trying to win championships. 

Then this begs the question that I'll ask again: Why spend 54M on Hendriks?

[Y2Jimmy0]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Then this begs the question that I'll ask again: Why spend 54M on Hendriks?

Tony wanted him. It's one area where they can acquire elite players due to the low price point. They think Crochet is a starter. I'm just dubious that it ever happens. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Tony wanted him. It's one area where they can acquire elite players due to the low price point. They think Crochet is a starter. I'm just dubious that it ever happens. 

How is that cheap?  I guess compared to Robertson when he signed as a Top 3-5 or 4-6 reliever in baseball or however you wanted to rank him at that time.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

How is that cheap?  I guess compared to Robertson when he signed as a Top 3-5 or 4-6 reliever in baseball or however you wanted to rank him at that time.

They can get the best reliever in baseball for $54 million. The best players at other positions cost a lot more. That's my point. They play at the very top of the market for catchers and relief pitchers. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

They can get the best reliever in baseball for $54 million. The best players at other positions cost a lot more. That's my point. They play at the very top of the market for catchers and relief pitchers. 

Sure, and the counter-argument is that they already had McCann, plus Collins/Mercedes.

That Grandal was entering his decline years and perhaps heading for an automated umpiring system in the next CBA.  That he was benched by the Dodgers, and not the fiery take charge leader type in the clubhouse.  
 

Certainly, having the depth of Bummer, Heuer, Crochet, etc., made spending that money on a closer a luxury when it could have been earmarked for Ozuna or Springer instead.  Obviously LaRussa wanted Eaton and he hit what should have been the game-winning homer last night so we’ll have to see if he can remain healthy AND productive.

I guess if Lynn, Hendriks and Eaton all work out, he’ll (TLR) be a genius again.  But they bought both of those guys near the top of their market values.

[Y2Jimmy0]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Sure, and the counter-argument is that they already had McCann, plus Collins/Mercedes.

That Grandal was entering his decline years and perhaps heading for an automated umpiring system in the next CBA.  That he was benched by the Dodgers, and not the fiery take charge leader type in the clubhouse.  
 

Certainly, having the depth of Bummer, Heuer, Crochet, etc., made spending that money on a closer a luxury when it could have been earmarked for Ozuna or Springer instead.  Obviously LaRussa wanted Eaton and he hit what should have been the game-winning homer last night so we’ll have to see if he can remain healthy AND productive.

I guess if Lynn, Hendriks and Eaton all work out, he’ll (TLR) be a genius again.  But they bought both of those guys near the top of their market values.

You just can't look at this way. They didn't have $54 million to allocate elsewhere. That's not how they operate under Reinsdorf. They basically had $30 million to spend. Hendriks is $11 million of that. They can't just take the full value of Hendrik's contract and allocate it for 2021. It doesn't work that way.