The Yermin-Vaughn-Abreu Conundrum

[ron883]

7 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I wonder what would be worse defensively, Eloy and Vaughn in the corners with Robert between them or Carlos Lee-Everett-Magglio?  Robert makes up a lot ground but the two guys flanking him I definitely believe would be worse than Lee and Magglio and by quite a bit.

The OF with Robert in it is most definitely better. Everett can't hold Robert's jockstrap in CF.

[ShoeLessRob]

Put them in a cage, fight to the death, and last one standing gets the privilege of being the Chicago White Sox Left Fielder. 

["The Kids Can Play"]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:55 AM, ron883 said:

I certainly don't want to trade him. Where does he play on this team when Eloy comes back? 

I forgot that you get offended at the idea of trading Vaughn or Madrigal. 

It's not about being offended. It just isn't going to happen. Rick Hahn isn't going to trade away this early, his two highly touted players that he drafted #3 overall for Vaughn and #4 overall for Madrigal in back to back years. They are both too young and have too much upside to trade away. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by "The Kids Can Play"

["The Kids Can Play"]

9 hours ago, ron883 said:

The OF with Robert in it is most definitely better. Everett can't hold Robert's jockstrap in CF.

Totally agree with you! What many here don't seem to get is that Robert is an elite gold glove CF who probably covers the left center and right center portions of the field better than almost every other CF in baseball. All Eloy and Vaughn need to do is stay out of Robert's way and don't make any errors in their same section of the field LOL! ?

[ron883]

8 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

It's not about being offended. It just isn't going to happen. Rick Hahn isn't going to trade away this early, his two highly touted players that he drafted #3 overall for Vaughn and #4 overall for Madrigal in back to back years. They are both too young and have too much upside to trade away. 

There were plenty of rumors that Madrigal was being included in trade talks this past offseason. Madrigal doesn't have "too much upside". His upside is pretty limited by his 20 grade power IMO. With the emergence of Yermin, Vaughn is a realistic trade candidate in the future as well. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by ron883

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

Totally agree with you! What many here don't seem to get is that Robert is an elite gold glove CF who probably covers the left center and right center portions of the field better than almost every other CF in baseball. All Eloy and Vaughn need to do is stay out of Robert's way and don't make any errors in their same section of the field LOL! ?

We all get what kind of speed and athleticism Robert has. We want defensive competence in the corners because it's just better for the team and better for Robert.

If you have some speed in the corners Robert won't have to wear himself out covering for defensively challenged corner OF's. Robert hasn't helped his rep as being injury prone so the less diving and covering for slow footed OF's the fresher he can stay. He is the last guy on the team I want worn out when the Sox are in the playoffs.

It's bad enough covering for 1 OF who is slow or defensively challenged, 2 would be terrible, even if it appears that's where the Sox are headed this post season barring any major trades.

["The Kids Can Play"]

15 minutes ago, ron883 said:

There were plenty of rumors that Madrigal was being included in trade talks this past offseason. Madrigal doesn't have "too much upside". His upside is pretty limited by his 20 grade power IMO. With the emergence of Yermin, Vaughn is a realistic trade candidate in the future as well. 

Exactly...Rumors and rumors are nonsense. If there were any trade talks with Madrigal, then it was from other teams desperately needing a 2B and offering to acquire him. That shit happens all the time in baseball. The Sox have what other GM's covet...lots of talent they wish they had. At this point though it would make no sense for Hahn after drafting these two players so high and then just giving them away so early in the game. 

Again the haters of Madrigal need to get off this soap box he doesn't hit for power crap. He is hitting .299, scoring runs and playing a solid 2b. Btw, if you trade Madrigal you have to replace him with someone at 2B. Who will that be? Leury Garcia and his .209 BA?

["The Kids Can Play"]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

We all get what kind of speed and athleticism Robert has. We want defensive competence in the corners because it's just better for the team and better for Robert.

If you have some speed in the corners Robert won't have to wear himself out covering for defensively challenged corner OF's. Robert hasn't helped his rep as being injury prone so the less diving and covering for slow footed OF's the fresher he can stay. He is the last guy on the team I want worn out when the Sox are in the playoffs.

It's bad enough covering for 1 OF who is slow or defensively challenged, 2 would be terrible, even if it appears that's where the Sox are headed this post season barring any major trades.

Vaughn hasn't made an error yet in left. That seems pretty competent to me. Plus you aren't going to wear Robert out covering more field. He enjoys it and he is a top level athlete who covers extra ground with ease and not some struggling effort. Again the juice is worth the squeeze with that OF combo to have that much hitting in the lineup. 

[Quin]

47 minutes ago, ron883 said:

There were plenty of rumors that Madrigal was being included in trade talks this past offseason. Madrigal doesn't have "too much upside". His upside is pretty limited by his 20 grade power IMO. With the emergence of Yermin, Vaughn is a realistic trade candidate in the future as well. 

Eh, Vaughn proving that he can handle LF is making Yermin an awfully attractive trade piece this summer, especially if the NL adds the DH.

Unless Vaughn and Eloy become your corner OF (and Robert just covers 75% of the OF), you're gonna need to decide between Eloy and Yermin. Which should be a real easy decision. 

[Paulie4Pres]

Imagine talking about "wearing out" a center fielder in baseball. These guys sit around half the game.... How many balls does a center fielder even field in a given game? Come on.

[chitownsportsfan]

10 minutes ago, Quin said:

Eh, Vaughn proving that he can handle LF is making Yermin an awfully attractive trade piece this summer, especially if the NL adds the DH.

Unless Vaughn and Eloy become your corner OF (and Robert just covers 75% of the OF), you're gonna need to decide between Eloy and Yermin. Which should be a real easy decision. 

I'm not really sure it's that easy.  I don't think Eloy is capable of playing any position in the field other than maybe a really shitty 1B.  He can't play LF without hurting himself imo and that severely limits his value.  He's basically a 24 year old DH and Yermin for now is on a better contract!  Both of them are assets and the Sox should be thrilled with how this "problem" has emerged.  Right now I think the thing is to just do nothing, usually these things work themselves out.

[fathom]

33 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

Exactly...Rumors and rumors are nonsense. If there were any trade talks with Madrigal, then it was from other teams desperately needing a 2B and offering to acquire him. That shit happens all the time in baseball. The Sox have what other GM's covet...lots of talent they wish they had. At this point though it would make no sense for Hahn after drafting these two players so high and then just giving them away so early in the game. 

Again the haters of Madrigal need to get off this soap box he doesn't hit for power crap. He is hitting .299, scoring runs and playing a solid 2b. Btw, if you trade Madrigal you have to replace him with someone at 2B. Who will that be? Leury Garcia and his .209 BA?

Mendick would be his replacement and could likely match his WAR production.  He’s pretty clearly a better defensive player than Madrigal.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

44 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

Vaughn hasn't made an error yet in left. That seems pretty competent to me. Plus you aren't going to wear Robert out covering more field. He enjoys it and he is a top level athlete who covers extra ground with ease and not some struggling effort. Again the juice is worth the squeeze with that OF combo to have that much hitting in the lineup. 

Errors are not the same as being slow. Yes he is competent but that's a lot different than covering the ground necessary to make catches down the line or in the gap that faster OF's can get to.

Any athlete, even the best ones wear down over the course of a long season especially one's who aren''t used to playing 150+ games per season . That applies to Robert. Remember Robert at his best is also a base stealing, turning singles in doubles and doubles into triples type hitter. That's a lot running and sliding and he hasn't proved he can stay healthy doing all that yet for long stretches.

I get a little concerned that some fans expect so much from guys like Vaughn or Robert . They are not super human.

Edited May 12, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

32 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Imagine talking about "wearing out" a center fielder in baseball. These guys sit around half the game.... How many balls does a center fielder even field in a given game? Come on.

Laughably naive take unless you were being facetious.

[Paulie4Pres]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Laughably naive take unless you were being facetious.

I'm not. Do you have an example of a center fielder being worn out at the end of a season? This guy isn't sprinting around the field the entire game, every game. If a 23 year old, world class athlete is getting worn out from playing center field, something is very wrong.

[35thstreetswarm]

1 hour ago, "The Kids Can Play" said:

Totally agree with you! What many here don't seem to get is that Robert is an elite gold glove CF who probably covers the left center and right center portions of the field better than almost every other CF in baseball. 

Finally, someone has tapped into the big secret of the Sox roster.  Other weird things I've noticed:  Crochet throws hard, Yermin Mercedes is fat, Tim Anderson can hit for average, and Eloy is actually not that athletic a left fielder.  

[Chicago White Sox]

44 minutes ago, fathom said:

Mendick would be his replacement and could likely match his WAR production.  He’s pretty clearly a better defensive player than Madrigal.

People said this last year and then Mendick got exposed with regular playing time.  I like Danny but he’s going to provide less overall offensive value despite his superior power and less base-running value given his lack of speed.  I also think people are still overreacting to a handle of dumb plays Nick has made and I’m not yet convinced Mendick is that much better of a defender at 2B.

[ron883]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Eh, Vaughn proving that he can handle LF is making Yermin an awfully attractive trade piece this summer, especially if the NL adds the DH.

Unless Vaughn and Eloy become your corner OF (and Robert just covers 75% of the OF), you're gonna need to decide between Eloy and Yermin. Which should be a real easy decision. 

Easy decision. Play Eloy and Vaughn in the OF together. Will it really be much worse than Eaton in the RF? Metrics say Eaton has been great in RF so far this year, but that doesn't match the eye test. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by ron883

["The Kids Can Play"]

1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Imagine talking about "wearing out" a center fielder in baseball. These guys sit around half the game.... How many balls does a center fielder even field in a given game? Come on.

Amen, well said!

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

Easy decision. Play Eloy and Vaughn in the OF together. Will it really be much worse than Eaton in the RF? Metrics sat Eaton has been great in RF so far, but that doesn't match the eye test. 

I think it would be because you lose considerable range.  Eaton’s speed is still pretty good and he can theoretically still cover a lot of ground.  You are asking Robert to cover a fuckton of space with Vaughn and Robert in the corners.  It may work for a short window, but I’d look for a better solution for the long-run.

[YoYoIsMyHero]

14 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

I'm not. Do you have an example of a center fielder being worn out at the end of a season? This guy isn't sprinting around the field the entire game, every game. If a 23 year old, world class athlete is getting worn out from playing center field, something is very wrong.

Check out Byron Buxton's injury history. I'm going to guess it wouldn't be as long if he was DHing every game

["The Kids Can Play"]

41 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Errors are not the same as being slow. Yes he is competent but that's a lot different than covering the ground necessary to make catches down the line or in the gap that faster OF's can get to.

Any athlete, even the best ones wear down over the course of a long season especially one's who aren''t used to playing 150+ games per season . That applies to Robert. Remember Robert at his best is also a base stealing, turning singles in doubles and doubles into triples type hitter. That's a lot running and sliding and he hasn't proved he can stay healthy doing all that yet for long stretches.

I get a little concerned that some fans expect so much from guys like Vaughn or Robert . They are not super human.

Nobody here is expecting Vaughn and Robert to be super human, you are exaggerating things. We do expect them to be all stars. 

[Paulie4Pres]

4 minutes ago, YoYoIsMyHero said:

Check out Byron Buxton's injury history. I'm going to guess it wouldn't be as long if he was DHing every game

 

Some guys are just injury prone. And a bunch of Buxton's injuries are....strange. To say the least. Of course guys get injured less playing DH. lol

Edited May 12, 2021 by Paulie4Pres

[YourWhatHurts]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think it would be because you lose considerable range.  Eaton’s speed is still pretty good and he can theoretically still cover a lot of ground.  You are asking Robert to cover a fuckton of space with Vaughn and Robert in the corners.  It may work for a short window, but I’d look for a better solution for the long-run.

I think in a Eloy and Vaughn on the corners scenario you need to replace at least one of them after their second PA in most games or 3rd PA if we're putting runners on because the open ground in both corners is too much.  And we could do this at home but definitely not in a place like KC for example.

But then what do I know.  I mentioned above the OF of Lee-Everett-Maggs the Sox used before so at least their is precedent for such a limited OF. Although I think Maggs was better than Vaughn would be and Lee was definitely better than Eloy.  Robert can only do so much.

Regardless I remember finding an IF of Pods-Rowand-Dye **very** refreshing after watching all that porous OF defense for so long.  I'm never really going to be excited about open OF grass but then I also don't want to trade any of Eloy, Yermin, or Vaughn either so whatever.

["The Kids Can Play"]

33 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Finally, someone has tapped into the big secret of the Sox roster.  Other weird things I've noticed:  Crochet throws hard, Yermin Mercedes is fat, Tim Anderson can hit for average, and Eloy is actually not that athletic a left fielder.  

I get you are trying to be facetious and making sarcasm of my comment. However my point wasn't about the obvious that Robert is athletic and fast. The point was for all the naysayers that think its risky or dumb to put Eloy and Vaughn together in the OF with Robert.

Edited May 12, 2021 by "The Kids Can Play"