White Sox Winner!!!

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, his approach has been solid despite his contact not being great. That's the point of citing his OBP. 

I want Vaughn to play in LF so he has nothing to do with Mercedes. Nick Williams is not a good LF'er.

Exactly. When your options include Vaughn, Williams, and Leury, give me Vaughn. Defensive sub for him in the 6th or 7th if there is a big enough lead and he's not due up.

Edited April 13, 2021 by manbearpuig

[CentralChamps21]

2 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Yes, there is no excuse for not playing Vaughn everyday.  How do you ever expect him to get in a rhythym when he probably feels like he has to him a homer every time just to get playing time over guys who werent even on teams one month ago 

There were at least 2 balls in LF that Vaughn wouldn't have gotten to. Not a criticism of him, but he just doesn't cover as much ground. When a contact pitcher like Keuchel or Lynn is pitching, I don't mind leaning toward the better defensive option.

Also, Mercedes is cooling down so Vaughn might start getting some time at DH.

[wegner]

Just now, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

There were at least 2 balls in LF that Vaughn wouldn't have gotten to. Not a criticism of him, but he just doesn't cover as much ground. When a contact pitcher like Keuchel or Lynn is pitching, I don't mind leaning toward the better defensive option.

Also, Mercedes is cooling down so Vaughn might start getting some time at DH.

I am trying to remember what game it was that a ball landed close to the line in LF and the announcers clearly said a seasoned LF would have had it when Vaughn could not get to it.  Was that part of that awful inning in Seattle or a different game?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

There were at least 2 balls in LF that Vaughn wouldn't have gotten to. Not a criticism of him, but he just doesn't cover as much ground. When a contact pitcher like Keuchel or Lynn is pitching, I don't mind leaning toward the better defensive option.

Also, Mercedes is cooling down so Vaughn might start getting some time at DH.

What is this based on? Nick Williams LF range is well below average vs league average for his career. Advanced metrics are volatile in the OF for defense, so I don't want to cite anything as too telling, but you have no evidence of this at all.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, wegner said:

I am trying to remember what game it was that a ball landed close to the line in LF and the announcers clearly said a seasoned LF would have had it when Vaughn could not get to it.  Was that part of that awful inning in Seattle or a different game?

Nick Williams is far from a seasoned MLB LF'er him self is the issue.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, wegner said:

I am trying to remember what game it was that a ball landed close to the line in LF and the announcers clearly said a seasoned LF would have had it when Vaughn could not get to it.  Was that part of that awful inning in Seattle or a different game?

I think that play happened in a game the Sox won in Seattle.

Edited April 13, 2021 by manbearpuig

[CentralChamps21]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What is this based on? Nick Williams LF range is well below average vs league average for his career. Advanced metrics are volatile in the OF for defense, so I don't want to cite anything as too telling, but you have no evidence of this at all.

I don't know that "evidence" of another player not making a hypothetical play exists, but there was one ball in foul territory and one where he had to come in quite a bit where he covered more ground than Vaughn possibly could have if he had been starting from the same spot.

[SonofaRoache]

36 minutes ago, fathom said:

Mendick and Vaughn go down most likely

If Vaughn goes down we need to acquire an everyday LF type. 

[ShoeLessRob]

Nick Williams isn’t going to be winning any baseball games this year (he didnt make a roster last year nor this year). If Vaughn hits as anticipated he could be a huge addition to a lineup that is hurting for power and consistency. Obviously we don’t know if he will produce, but why not see what he’s got? If they are going to continue to use him this way, like others have said he’s better off being sent down when the minor league season kicks off. But I’ll argue that they did the same thing last year (and year before) with their DH position when they could have seen what Collins had OR Yermin. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Dude you brought up the .400 OBP so if you could do it then  I can do it too. Now you're just going round in circles . Yes I see how easy it is and now I am supposed to use the stats I already gave you again or what ? The point was that using that .400 OBP stat is stupid and does nothing to support an argument for his playing time.

I would disagree. It shows that he is being selective and has an appropriate approach at the plate. He is a young player and will develop hitting the pitches as he progresses. For a young player OBP is an important stat.

[35thstreetswarm]

16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What is this based on? Nick Williams LF range is well below average vs league average for his career. Advanced metrics are volatile in the OF for defense, so I don't want to cite anything as too telling, but you have no evidence of this at all.

Right -- the anti-Vaughn arguments on here read like the choice is between Vaughn in LF vs. Engel, or some other defensive whiz. I think it's getting lost that the choice right now is Vaughn vs. *Nick Williams*, who is not good. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

You do realize if Eloy doesn't get hurt, Vaughn is on the team, and Yermin is enjoying what Schaumburg has to offer. 

The point is, if the Sox don't feel Vaughn is ready to play every day, it made zero sense having him on the roster and starting his clock. Either play him or send him down.

I think they are slowly breaking him in to get adjusted to MLB pitching. That combined with the unbelievable start of Mercedes has limited his playing time early in the season. Within a month Vaughn will be in there nearly everyday unless Mercedes continues the unreal streak he is on.

[hogan873]

Soxtalk is about equality.  We're mad when the team loses, and we're just as mad when they win!

[Dominikk85]

58 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What is this based on? Nick Williams LF range is well below average vs league average for his career. Advanced metrics are volatile in the OF for defense, so I don't want to cite anything as too telling, but you have no evidence of this at all.

Nick williams sprint speed in 2019 (didn't find later values) was 27.8, Vaughn is at 25.8. 

Sprint speed is not everything but on top of beeing super slow Vaughn also has literally no Of experience. 

Williams Of numbers are mostly bad from CF, he was like average in LF. 

I'm not saying I want Williams instead of Vaughn but if Vaughn plays every day in LF that will be one of the worst defensive seasons of all time in LF because of both his lack of speed and lack of experience. 

He actually did a decent job so far not having any huge Gaffes and he did catch the routine fly balls but most of those a 50 yo beer league softball player would probably have caught too. 

So far Vaughn was lucky he mostly got routine fly balls and balls way out of his range but as the season goes on there will be situations with a ball toward the line or a short one which he doesn't reach with bases loaded costing two or three runs and over a season that adds up. 

Vaughn is not an everyday left fielder and expecting that from him would be unfair, his position is DH and 1b with occasional fill ins in LF. 

[Leonard Zelig]

1 hour ago, manbearpuig said:

They will have some interesting decisions to make when Anderson, Engel and even Hamilton come back.

When is Engel expected back?

[wegner]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Nick Williams is far from a seasoned MLB LF'er him self is the issue.

I know little about Nick Williams actually but he has looked fine defensively out there while Vaughn is still learning.  I am not arguing for Williams...all I am saying is that you do take a risk sacrificing defense for potential offensive output....see 2006 CF.

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, wegner said:

I know little about Nick Williams actually but he has looked fine defensively out there while Vaughn is still learning.  I am not arguing for Williams...all I am saying is that you do take a risk sacrificing defense for potential offensive output....see 2006 CF.

To be fair, there's a massive difference in having Rob Mackowiak play CF, flanked by Scott Podsednik and Jermaine Dye, and Vaughn playing LF where he's surrounded by Luis Robert, Moncada, and Tim Anderson.

[wegner]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

To be fair, there's a massive difference in having Rob Mackowiak play CF, flanked by Scott Podsednik and Jermaine Dye, and Vaughn playing LF where he's surrounded by Luis Robert, Moncada, and Tim Anderson.

That's a very fair point, Quin.  That was just the glaring example in my head.  I really have to get over Ozzie playing the wrong guy 15 years ago.  Sorry about that. 

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, wegner said:

That's a very fair point, Quin.  That was just the glaring example in my head.  I really have to get over Ozzie playing the wrong guy 15 years ago.  Sorry about that. 

It's fair to think of that. I keep seeing shades of Ozzie benching Viciedo for no apparent reason in TLR's handling of Vaughn, even though the situations aren't 1-for-1.

[Y2Jimmy0]

3 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

This is the problem right here. Many people were asking for us to sign a legit DH because you can't rely on Vaughn this year most likely because he doesn't have the seasoning. Our FO was cheap and just said he is ready because of what they saw in Schaumburg while hoping our lineup could cover for development time. That is not the case now and we need production from him. This is on the FO. 

It's not on the front office. It's on Jerry Reinsdorf for not having enough in the budget and Tony La Russa for choosing to not play Andrew Vaughn. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Prefer him to be sent down.  He doesn’t belong up here at the moment but we’re wasting a possible 7th year in his prime. With Mercedes doing well, he has no spot on the roster.

As do I but I see no sense in playing him unless he has a good matchup. No matter how long he is up here the Sox will try to get the year back unless he shows he can contribute against the matchups he does get. Then you can try him more against righties but now he doesn't deserve anything handed to him on a silver platter because of pedigree. It's unfortunate injuries led to this but if Engel and Hamilton are uninjured ,Mercedes doesn't get the chance. So now Mercedes is taking Vaughn's DH AB's and Vaughn was only tried in LF because of the OF injuries and the emergence of Mercedes.

Sorry everyone but if there's a silver lining to less Vaughn PT and the injuries, it's Mercedes . It's not my fault Vaughn is too inexperienced with both hitting MLB pitching and with playing LF  and too slow too contribute in any other way. If you all don't like me calling a spade a spade, oh well.

 

[wegner]

7 minutes ago, Quin said:

It's fair to think of that. I keep seeing shades of Ozzie benching Viciedo for no apparent reason in TLR's handling of Vaughn, even though the situations aren't 1-for-1.

That is a very interesting comparison.  Thanks for putting that out there.

[35thstreetswarm]

9 minutes ago, Quin said:

It's fair to think of that. I keep seeing shades of Ozzie benching Viciedo for no apparent reason in TLR's handling of Vaughn, even though the situations aren't 1-for-1.

I actually see the ghost of Mackowiak in Williams more than Vaughn. None of these situations are 1-for-1, but from Mackowiak to Erstad to Teahen to Lawrie to Alonso to Jay to Nick Williams, I have a near-allergic aversion to this organization's seeming affinity for prioritizing low-value "veteran" roster filler over the development of long-term assets.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

You do realize if Eloy doesn't get hurt, Vaughn is on the team, and Yermin is enjoying what Schaumburg has to offer. 

The point is, if the Sox don't feel Vaughn is ready to play every day, it made zero sense having him on the roster and starting his clock. Either play him or send him down.

Well duh of course I realize it because you bolded the part where I said that with the word injuries included . How could you bold it and be blind at the same time ? This either play him or send him down never offers any reason to play him except for the fact he is up and his pedigree. What's wrong with keeping him around learning and practicing with MLB players and playing against favorable matchups until the minor league season starts then sending him down ? Does another 2 weeks on the roster ruin him ? Another 2 weeks does not prevent the Sox from getting the year of service time back either.

Edited April 13, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

If he is here, he should be playing every day getting at bats. If he isn't playing every day, he needs to be at the alternate site.

Why did you bold that and not answer the question ? He is here and should be playing every day

 

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, his approach has been solid despite his contact not being great. That's the point of citing his OBP. 

I want Vaughn to play in LF so he has nothing to do with Mercedes. Nick Williams is not a good LF'er.

Ok so u think that .400 OBP means something  so then I am allowed to say that his .000 avg and .200 OBP against RHP means something too. Both are very small sample sizes. If you can use one to your advantage then so can I . You only want him in left field because there's no where else for him to play because Mercedes took away his DH AB's so it has a lot to do with Mercedes. Remember you guys keep using that OBP 1st I never brought it up because small sample sizes by you or me means nothing. All you got is his pedigree to support Vaughns playing time. Nada, zip, zilch, nothing but that, not speed, not experience, not defense, not performance. .