Madrigal.

[KipWellsFan]

This is a strange thread... Madrigal is on our team. He is our boy! Why are we making fun of his height!?

Madrigal doesn't have to be Altuve or Pedroia to have a good major league career. If you think every #4 pick needs to be an MVP contender you are going to be consistently disappointed. If he can get the goofball plays under control, his elite contact level should make him a pretty good player. He's perfectly fine on any team as an 8 or 9 hitter. Especially in our case with batters like Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, and Jose Abreu that follow him.

And I just feel like his elite contact levels mean there could be something special about this guy. If he can add a few walks and/or a few more extra base hits to his repertoire he becomes a pretty elite level player pretty quick. I don't think it's crazy to think he could improve his patience and/or power a bit.

Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned and behind the time on all the sabre-metrics. But I think Madrigal is very promising.

P.S. Someone was making fun of David Eckstein earlier. His two World Series rings and World Series MVP say hello.

[chitownsportsfan]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

To be clear...I am confident that Madrigal has the floor of a reliable everyday 2nd baseman.  My hope is for him to challenge Fox as a WS legend.

Well how can you be that confident after only 45 games! Maybe you should join the WS scouting crew!  I'm just fucking with you dude; we all have a tendency to enjoy the smoke we blow up our own asses including myself.  We should all be more humble in our predictions about the Sox and their players.

Edited April 22, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

15 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Ray I'm going to ask you again to never, ever respond to me.  99.9% of your posts in reply to me are ad hominem attacks in which you insert absurd cut outs of my post history and put words into my mouth.

 I have you on ignore but sometimes it glitches and shows when you respond to me.  Just stop, just put me on ignore and we'll never have to cross paths.  Thank you.  And for the record, go through my posts and you will find the vast majority made since this season started, the vast majority, have no personal attacks and debate the substance of arguments about players and the Sox.  I'm actively working on bettering myself, but when you respond to me with your absurdities it doesn't make it easy not to just rip the fuck out of you.  So please, don't give me the temptation.

So my post to you is a personal attack but people posting oompa loompa posts for Madrigal are good natured ribbings? How did I attack you lol?

You honestly can't make this up. I can respond to anyone I please, thank you. After all, what's the point of a message board if you can't interact with posters and talk about posts? Isn't that what you say all the time? Thank you for proving my point regarding your sensitivity though.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Vulture]

OPS is deeply flawed in that it simply adds two numbers that are of different scales. A .400 OBp is vastly superior to .400 SLG, but according to OPS they’re the same. It would be better if there were a stat for (TB + BB + hbp)/PA

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

You do have a point. But again, for me the thing is WE DON'T KNOW YET. Projections and what actually ends up happening often do tend to be different. We need to give him a better time frame than less than half a damn season to make a judgment.

And more than that, posts with pictures of midgets from Wizard of Oz? People need to grow up and deserved to be called out for such childish behavior. That's what people like me are more agitated by.

Having time to reflect on my posts, you are correct. I apologize to Nick Madrigal, and wish him further success, and to you for my response to you yesterday evening.

The posts after my initial analysis were wrong, no debate or defense on that point.

Peace

[poppysox]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Well how can you be that confident after only 45 games! Maybe you should join the WS scouting crew!  I'm just fucking with you dude; we all have a tendency to enjoy the smoke we blow up our own asses including myself.  We should all be more humble in our predictions about the Sox and their players.

Fans are passionate about "our team"...why else would we watch night after night?

[YourWhatHurts]

1 hour ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Now your just being silly. 

In all seriousness, please list the players who you believe make as many or more mental mistakes as Madrigal.

I've got Leury, Eloy, Grandal on that list.  Not sure who else is at or below that level.

[RagahRagah]

30 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Ray I'm going to ask you again to never, ever respond to me.  99.9% of your posts in reply to me are ad hominem attacks in which you insert absurd cut outs of my post history and put words into my mouth.

 I have you on ignore but sometimes it glitches and shows when you respond to me.  Just stop, just put me on ignore and we'll never have to cross paths.  Thank you.  And for the record, go through my posts and you will find the vast majority made since this season started, the vast majority, have no personal attacks and debate the substance of arguments about players and the Sox.  I'm actively working on bettering myself, but when you respond to me with your absurdities it doesn't make it easy not to just rip the fuck out of you.  So please, don't give me the temptation.

You aren't wrong but your behavior here isn't exactly exemplary either. Look inward.

 

14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

So my post to you is a personal attack but people posting oompa loompa posts for Madrigal are good natured ribbings? How did I attack you lol?

You honestly can't make this up. I can respond to anyone I please, thank you. After all, what's the point of a message board if you can't interact with posters and talk about posts? Isn't that what you say all the time? Thank you for proving my point regarding your sensitivity though.

Yep. I hate to think of some of these people as older than early 20's. With that said...

 

11 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Having time to reflect on my posts, you are correct. I apologize to Nick Madrigal, and wish him further success, and to you for my response to you yesterday evening.

The posts after my initial analysis were wrong, no debate or defense on that point.

Peace

If this is genuine, then I gladly accept your apology and do hope you refrain from this type of thing in the future. You're actually probably the only person I've personally interacted with that was man enough to apologize or retract something he said regarding a conversion with me, which should result in some reflection for some people here, including a few who have it in their heads that I'm some sort of relentless prick. I treat people how they act; humble and civil posts/responses equal humble and civil responses from myself. 

So kudos to you. Now if we can get some others on the same track...

[RagahRagah]

2 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

In all seriousness, please list the players who you believe make as many or more mental mistakes as Madrigal.

I've got Leury, Eloy, Grandal on that list.  Not sure who else is at or below that level.

And those guys are all on the Sox and are all ML caliber players even despite those mistakes. Writing Nick off before even half a season in is just plain ridiculous. Period.

In another full season or so if he hasn't at least vastly improved his defense I will join your camp.

But if on top of that, he also is still hitting .300+ and never striking out by then as a 9 hole hitter then I'll just have to keep rolling my eyes at some of you because the expectation he needs to be a superstar and the lack of power with all that considered means he'd a failure or needs to be replaced is silly.

[chitownsportsfan]

16 minutes ago, Vulture said:

OPS is deeply flawed in that it simply adds two numbers that are of different scales. A .400 OBp is vastly superior to .400 SLG, but according to OPS they’re the same. It would be better if there were a stat for (TB + BB + hbp)/PA

wRC+ works great and OPS is useful as a quick and dirty calculation of offensive contribution. Madrigal has a 106 wRC+, which would be great if he was league average defensively at 2B, but he's not, he's bottom 1/4.

[hi8is]

41 minutes ago, Marqhead said:

As someone who is new to SoxTalk, I find this thread fascinating. The discussion on Madirgal certainly, but also for so so many more reasons. 

Welcome to Soxtalk!

[hi8is]

16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

wRC+ works great and OPS is useful as a quick and dirty calculation of offensive contribution. Madrigal has a 106 wRC+, which would be great if he was league average defensively at 2B, but he's not, he's bottom 1/4.

Still think his defense and base running will improve.

[Vulture]

33 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

 OPS is useful. 

It’s really not though. It’s almost completely invalid due to the reason I cited above. A .400 obp is nowhere close to equivalent to a .400 slg, so adding them together is basically pointless

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Vulture said:

It’s really not though. It’s almost completely invalid due to the reason I cited above. A .400 obp is nowhere close to equivalent to a .400 slg, so adding them together is basically pointless

OPS has many positives:

1) easily calculated

2) is easily understood by most fans

3) Is fairly accurate to describe roughly 90% of MLB hitters' offensive contributions

To paraphrase Tango, "OPS is a stool, but if you have a recliner around it's better".  The recliner is clearly something like wRC+, but sometimes a stool will do just fine.  There are extreme examples where OPS is quite bad, sure, that doesn't mean it's not useful in many situations.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Madrigal was advertised as a speedy 30+ SB threat who would hit well over .300, play gold glove defense, and was a heads-up player who would do all the little things correctly which helps a team win games but doesn't show up on any of the stat sheets.

It turns out his speed is grossly overrated, he's a threat on the basepaths only to his own team because his baserunning is so bad, because of his lack of arm strength and range comparatively he will never win a gold glove with his defense and due to his lack of power he will never win a gold glove with his bat either, and as for the little things, the guy is one of the worst players on the team.

Yes the contact is great but he's not hitting 9th to drive in runs.  He's very unlikely to ever be a huge obp guy either because pitchers will put the ball in the zone to him and make him swing the bat to get on.  There is no power to respect and he's really not the kind of bunt for basehit threat someone like him should be either.

I hope the Sox make a change here.  They can win with him because the rest of the core is so good but let's not pretend he's any part of the core the way most of these other players are.

Also here's a picture of him on vacation:

Silver Slugger...

[ShoeLessRob]

1 hour ago, YourWhatHurts said:

In all seriousness, please list the players who you believe make as many or more mental mistakes as Madrigal.

I've got Leury, Eloy, Grandal on that list.  Not sure who else is at or below that level.

I was commenting on the "worst player on the team" comment. Since we are using a small sample size (not including pitchers) I would say Jake Lamb and Leury have been worse baseball players than Madrigal this very young season, let's not forget the Nick Williams experiment.

If you want to just say THIS season Grandal has been horrendous and Collins looks lost (defensively he's been surprisingly fine imo). Vaughn isn't producing (granted his at-bats look better since he's getting more opportunity). Moncada was hitting .150 and only just recently brought his average up to .200. 

To say Madrigal is the worst player on the team through 18 games is bologna when there are not only worse players, but also so many players who are completely under performing. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, Perfect Vision said:

The OPS statistic is a good one, but not perfect by any means, and people who criticize Madrigal rely too heavily on it as the end-all-be-all for measuring a player's baseball value.

There was an at bat the other night that perfectly captured the chasm between Madrigal's actual value and OPS as a statistic.  Madrigal was up and Robert was at third with one out.  Madrigal fouled off some tough pitches with 2 strikes that most hitters would have struck out on, then hit an RBI groundout.  Madrigal's skillset produced a concrete positive result that won't be reflected in his OPS.

And considering how often the Sox as a team have struck out so far with men in scoring position with less than 2 outs when just a ground ball or fly ball scores a run you might think that making contact would be a skill that we should like a little more. If a sacrifice fly does not go on the hitter's record as an out why is a groundout with a runner on third that scores the run count as an out . They accomplish the same thing yet one reduces the hitter B.A. and other stats and the other one doesn't ? Plus a ground ball is more likely to lead to an error more often than a routine fly ball that scores a run. Of course shallow fly balls and groundouts to the pitcher aren't good but at least when the ball is in play sometimes weird things happen, a lot more than K's leads to strange occurrences. How many times do we see pitchers make poor throws to 1st ?

When I watch the condensed games on the MLB app the Sox aren't alone in fielding  miscues, bobbled balls, bad routes, dropped balls ,poor throws and errors. We saw a play in which Vaughn got a hit on a high chopper when if the SS takes his time and makes and accurate throw he gets Vaughn by a full step or more. I think in the same series (Cleveland) the official scorer gave an error on some bad throw that would have been much closer. It might have been a slow roller by Mercedes. It's a lot harder play charging a slow roller, bare handing it and making an accurate throw sidearm while bent over than it is to wait for a high chopper to come down while running towards 1st and just a short accurate toss to get the out.

Edited April 22, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Vulture said:

OPS is deeply flawed in that it simply adds two numbers that are of different scales. A .400 OBp is vastly superior to .400 SLG, but according to OPS they’re the same. It would be better if there were a stat for (TB + BB + hbp)/PA

I like it TBPA+ . Let 'er rip and let's see the results. Might want to put catchers interference in it too even though you won't find that On base stat anywhere but some guys naturally let the ball travel deeper and get those calls more often ( Tommy LaStella, Jacoby Ellsbury).

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
added video.

[YourWhatHurts]

3 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I was commenting on the "worst player on the team" comment. Since we are using a small sample size (not including pitchers) I would say Jake Lamb and Leury have been worse baseball players than Madrigal this very young season, let's not forget the Nick Williams experiment.

If you want to just say THIS season Grandal has been horrendous and Collins looks lost (defensively he's been surprisingly fine imo). Vaughn isn't producing (granted his at-bats look better since he's getting more opportunity). Moncada was hitting .150 and only just recently brought his average up to .200. 

To say Madrigal is the worst player on the team through 18 games is bologna when there are not only worse players, but also so many players who are completely under performing. 

But that's not even what I said.  You quoted my post and highlighted part of the sentence, and obviously didn't bother to read the sentence you quoted.

I stated "and as for the little things, the guy is one of the worst players on the team."  And this is correct, if you have been watching the games.

Those two likes you got from your totally out of context response to me should be repossessed by SoxTalk authorities and reallocated to their rightful owner (me).

Edit: "the little things" refers to smart plays, on-field awareness, fundamental baseball, etc.

Edited April 22, 2021 by YourWhatHurts

[YourWhatHurts]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Silver Slugger...

I assume you are adding this to the list of awards Nick Madrigal is never going to win, and if so, yes, I agree.  But that's already too obvious.

[YourWhatHurts]

5 hours ago, KipWellsFan said:

This is a strange thread... Madrigal is on our team. He is our boy! Why are we making fun of his height!?

Madrigal doesn't have to be Altuve or Pedroia to have a good major league career. If you think every #4 pick needs to be an MVP contender you are going to be consistently disappointed. If he can get the goofball plays under control, his elite contact level should make him a pretty good player. He's perfectly fine on any team as an 8 or 9 hitter. Especially in our case with batters like Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, and Jose Abreu that follow him.

And I just feel like his elite contact levels mean there could be something special about this guy. If he can add a few walks and/or a few more extra base hits to his repertoire he becomes a pretty elite level player pretty quick. I don't think it's crazy to think he could improve his patience and/or power a bit.

Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned and behind the time on all the sabre-metrics. But I think Madrigal is very promising.

P.S. Someone was making fun of David Eckstein earlier. His two World Series rings and World Series MVP say hello.

If he can turn into the kind of high-IQ solid fundamental player he was touted as, his shortcomings (pun not intended?) will be far easier to overlook and he will blend into the team much easier.  As I've said many times on this site, I think he's a 4-5 year starter.  As it is he looks like he'll get a typical first year arb contract offer, but the 2nd arb year is up in the air, and at the way he's playing, relative to his peers in all facets, I don't think he gets that arb offer in his 6th year.  I think he probably hits his max annual contract value in his 2nd arb year or if it's higher than that, it's not a 3rd arb year kind of contract value.

Really, his 2nd best attribute other than extreme contact is ability is that he's on a league minimum salary.  His 2nd best trait is that he's cheap.

[ShoeLessRob]

41 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

But that's not even what I said.  You quoted my post and highlighted part of the sentence, and obviously didn't bother to read the sentence you quoted.

I stated "and as for the little things, the guy is one of the worst players on the team."  And this is correct, if you have been watching the games.

Those two likes you got from your totally out of context response to me should be repossessed by SoxTalk authorities and reallocated to their rightful owner (me).

Edit: "the little things" refers to smart plays, on-field awareness, fundamental baseball, etc.

I’ll just say that your right I read that comment out of context, I thought you were referring to him as a whole. Not just his baseball IQ/fundamentals. 

[RagahRagah]

48 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

I assume you are adding this to the list of awards Nick Madrigal is never going to win, and if so, yes, I agree.  But that's already too obvious.

1. Stop being a douche. 

2. Silver Slugger is well within the realm of possibility for him.

[ron883]

6 hours ago, Marqhead said:

As someone who is new to SoxTalk, I find this thread fascinating. The discussion on Madirgal certainly, but also for so so many more reasons. 

I've been here a while and I find it fascinating as well. I've laughed a lot at this thread.

[hi8is]

Come on guys... it’s been 5 hours and no Madrigal slamming. You all be slackin.