Madrigal.

[Greg Hibbard]

37 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Why tho?  I too think Madrigal needs to hit for some XBH rather than just being a pure singles hitter, but picking some arbitrary number as the cut off seems silly.  He is currently on pace for around 35 XBH, and I don't think we've seen the best of him by any means.  The doubles and triples and perhaps occasional homer will come. 

Not directed at you really - but people are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole around here with Madrigal.  He is a unique player.  He just needs to be really good at what he does well.  This lineup has plenty of power - I still feel like he's a fantastic fit for a this team (when its fully healthy especially), and will be for years to come.  We don't need our 9 hitter to hit 20 homers.  

That said, Madrigal has been pretty bad offensively lately so hopefully he snaps out of it soon.   

Because how we value players is largely based on WAR and wRC+ and extra base hits are huge in determining that. 

Even if Madrigal is a .320 lifetime hitter, if he’s one who hits 87% singles, with about 10% doubles and 3% triples, (Madrigals current percentage), that doesn’t generate nearly enough value to outweigh the typical replacement level 2B. Especially if Madrigal only walks 25 times a year. We would be looking at a .320/.355/.355/.710 hitter. 
 

Mendick is already a .712 hitter, and it’s not like Madrigal is adding value in defense or baserunning

Being able to put the ball in play is only meaningful if you hit an absurdly high average or hit for power or are a decent mix. 

[caulfield12]

24th out of 27 qualified.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31

30/39 if you look at everyone over 80 PA’s.

0.4 fWAR pace.  We once said his floor was 1.5-2.25.

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Because how we value players is largely based on WAR and wRC+ and extra base hits are huge in determining that. 

Even if Madrigal is a .320 lifetime hitter, if he’s one who hits 87% singles, with about 10% doubles and 3% triples, (Madrigals current percentage), that doesn’t generate nearly enough value to outweigh the typical replacement level 2B. Especially if Madrigal only walks 25 times a year. We would be looking at a .320/.355/.355/.710 hitter. 
 

Mendick is already a .712 hitter, and it’s not like Madrigal is adding value in defense or baserunning

Being able to put the ball in play is only meaningful if you hit an absurdly high average or hit for power or are a decent mix. 

The problem Nick is facing right now is that pitchers are coming right at him and he will not get any walks unless he starts making them pay.  Compare and contrast the Grandal ABs with Nick's.  Pitchers fear Grandal, at least to a degree, and with his eye he can make them pay with a walk more often than not, even when he's slumping.  When Nick is slumping he's not going to walk, what, so a pitcher leaves a hanger over the plate for a double?  Without the fear of a HR there's no reason not to throw him strike after strike.

[KipWellsFan]

The last time this board was moping about Nick Madrigal and speculating that Danny Mendick should replace him, Madrigal got hot and raised his BA about 100 points. Let's hope that happens again. The team has a lot invested in Madrigal. Unless he goes on a major cold streak I imagine they will be sticking with him. Nothing suggests Mendick has a higher ceiling than Nicky.

[RagahRagah]

37 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Because how we value players is largely based on WAR and wRC+ and extra base hits are huge in determining that. 

Even if Madrigal is a .320 lifetime hitter, if he’s one who hits 87% singles, with about 10% doubles and 3% triples, (Madrigals current percentage), that doesn’t generate nearly enough value to outweigh the typical replacement level 2B. Especially if Madrigal only walks 25 times a year. We would be looking at a .320/.355/.355/.710 hitter. 
 

Mendick is already a .712 hitter, and it’s not like Madrigal is adding value in defense or baserunning

Being able to put the ball in play is only meaningful if you hit an absurdly high average or hit for power or are a decent mix. 

This I'll agree with. He'll definitely need to hit more than singles to be a great hitter. But even if he doesn't, he can be more than good enough to be our *worst* hitter, LOL.

[RagahRagah]

39 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Because how we value players is largely based on WAR and wRC+ and extra base hits are huge in determining that. 

Even if Madrigal is a .320 lifetime hitter, if he’s one who hits 87% singles, with about 10% doubles and 3% triples, (Madrigals current percentage), that doesn’t generate nearly enough value to outweigh the typical replacement level 2B. Especially if Madrigal only walks 25 times a year. We would be looking at a .320/.355/.355/.710 hitter. 
 

Mendick is already a .712 hitter, and it’s not like Madrigal is adding value in defense or baserunning

Being able to put the ball in play is only meaningful if you hit an absurdly high average or hit for power or are a decent mix. 

Yeah... maybe one of these days he can do that. ?

[mqr]

16 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

The last time this board was moping about Nick Madrigal and speculating that Danny Mendick should replace him, Madrigal got hot and raised his BA about 100 points. Let's hope that happens again. The team has a lot invested in Madrigal. Unless he goes on a major cold streak I imagine they will be sticking with him. Nothing suggests Mendick has a higher ceiling than Nicky.

We really shouldn’t be putting that much into the ups and downs a guy is having less than a hundred games into his career. 
 

but that’s a result of having a good team. 

[thedoctor]

17 minutes ago, mqr said:

We really shouldn’t be putting that much into the ups and downs a guy is having less than a hundred games into his career. 
 

but that’s a result of having a good team. 

that and it's one of those debates that has clearly-drawn lines here and folks who are always willing to restate their opinion as soon as they have evidence in hand. this thread will be 150 pages by the time the season is over.

but yes, i think it should be expected that the guy has ups and downs this year and probably next, too.

[harkness99]

its too early to tell...at the moment he is probably a below average player.

 

But who knows... one thing that would really help him is to be more selective.  He can make contact on  any pitch thrown anywhere - but that doesn't mean he should swing at them.

 

 

[Kalapse]

6 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

I believe this is possible. I also think it's a ridiculous, arbitrary assertion. 

Contact hitter who never strikes out, works the count and consistently hits over .300 (and apparently plays par defense and will likely improve) and we're gonna put arbitrary rules on what else he has to do to be "worthy" of being a first rounder?

Oh, please. This is bordering on delusion, as if every 1st rounder or even the majority of them end up being stars.

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, Kalapse said:

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

Yeah. I feel like he's misusing his contact ability. He should be extremely selective until two strikes, looking only for pitches he knows he can drive. Once Nicky Two Strikes kicks in, he needs to figure out how to foul off more pitches and work the count.

[GREEDY]

15 hours ago, Blackout Friday said:

Little Nicky is fine. He’s not a guy you can dream on, but he’s fine. 

What is your definition of fine?  A bad player?  Because he's been a bad baseball player.

 

[Dominikk85]

24 minutes ago, Kalapse said:

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

His chase and swing rate aren't high though and his zone swing rate isn't super high either (60%).

 

The reason he is not getting deeper in counts is that he is not missing pitches. 

He just needs to hit the ball a little harder. 

[HOFHurt35]

3 hours ago, RagahRagah said:

People oozing over the "juggernaut" offense they believe we have yet Nick apparently has to be a home run hitter (basically in the 9 hole) otherwise he isn't worthy of being a #1 pick.

Fucking bizarre.

He's going to struggle to be +.700 OPS guy for his career.   If you don't see that as a problem, then maybe we should have never let Yolmer Sanchez go. 

This is a Top 5 draft pick, I think many of us expected something a little better than Yolmer. 

 

[reiks12]

According to this forum its not a problem for players to go through cold spells unless its Nick Madrigal. He had a .790 OPS in April and you all forgot about that. 2 Weeks is all it takes for you all to go rabid again. I look forward to laughing at you when he comes out of this and goes on a tear. 

[vilehoopster]

30 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

He's going to struggle to be +.700 OPS guy for his career.   If you don't see that as a problem, then maybe we should have never let Yolmer Sanchez go. 

This is a Top 5 draft pick, I think many of us expected something a little better than Yolmer. 

 

This is such a BS take. I just looked them both up on MLB.com. Yolmer has a career batting average of .245. Madrigal's is 301. 301!! You guys coming on here saying a guy this early in his career that is batting .301 is terrible or bad is just ridiculous. 

And he's scored 21 runs so far this year, only Abreu and Anderson have scored more runs. And he scoring that many when he's batting 9th a lot of the time, getting less at bats. Aren't runs important?  Don't teams need runs to win. Why is hitting a home run of more value than scoring from second on a single. Do home runs count for two runs? Somebody has to be on base to get driven in. To dismiss a .301 batting average because of some other stat is silly. Again, totally not seeing the forest because of the trees. You can give me OPS all you want, but if it dismisses the value of a .300 hitter for not hitting home runs, it's a very, very questionable stat. 

How about Madrigal's war? Again, war kills me. I always love making fun of war. Right off of "Baseball Reference", from 2019, the year Abreu led the AL in RBIs, his war was 2.3.   2.3, what a joke!! Look it up. He leds the league in RBIs but has a low war. War is a stat I place very little value in. In 2019 and the couple years before that, MANY people on here were quoting Abreu's war for the reason the Sox should trade him for whatever they could get or used it to say the Sox should not, not, not to resign him. How did that turn out?

Colome always got a ridiculously low war also, and I'm pretty sure he had the best save (or very close; I looked it up to make fun of war before) percentage of anyone in baseball in his two years with the Sox.  

Does anybody remember this one? It was a few years ago. But Abreu, in late summer, had a string of like 11 or 12 solo home runs in a row. 11 or 12 home runs with nobody on base. What an embarrassing stat that was for the White Sox that year. You need guys on base to score runs. Earl Weaver, "The key to winning baseball games is good pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."  It's kind of hard to do that if no ones on base. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

This is such a BS take. I just looked them both up on MLB.com. Yolmer has a career batting average of .245. Madrigal's is 301. 301!! You guys coming on here saying a guy this early in his career that is batting .301 is terrible or bad is just ridiculous. 

And he's scored 21 runs so far this year, only Abreu and Anderson have scored more runs. And he scoring that many when he's batting 9th a lot of the time, getting less at bats. Aren't runs important?  Don't teams need runs to win. Why is hitting a home run of more value than scoring from second on a single. Do home runs count for two runs? Somebody has to be on base to get driven in. To dismiss a .301 batting average because of some other stat is silly. Again, totally not seeing the forest because of the trees. You can give me OPS all you want, but if it dismisses the value of a .300 hitter for not hitting home runs, it's a very, very questionable stat. 

How about Madrigal's war? Again, war kills me. I always love making fun of war. Right off of "Baseball Reference", from 2019, the year Abreu led the AL in RBIs, his war was 2.3.   2.3, what a joke!! Look it up. He leds the league in RBIs but has a low war. War is a stat I place very little value in. In 2019 and the couple years before that, MANY people on here were quoting Abreu's war for the reason the Sox should trade him for whatever they could get or used it to say the Sox should not, not, not to resign him. How did that turn out?

Colome always got a ridiculously low war also, and I'm pretty sure he had the best save (or very close; I looked it up to make fun of war before) percentage of anyone in baseball in his two years with the Sox.  

Does anybody remember this one? It was a few years ago. But Abreu, in late summer, had a string of like 11 or 12 solo home runs in a row. 11 or 12 home runs with nobody on base. What an embarrassing stat that was for the White Sox that year. You need guys on base to score runs. Earl Weaver, "The key to winning baseball games is good pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."  It's kind of hard to do that if no ones on base. 

Runs and RBIs are largely a function of what others adjacent in the lineup to you do (beyond HRs, which is moot in this discussion). 

If Madrigal can do what he did in 2020 (OBP .376) or April (OBP .369), his WAR will be high/valuable, and his runs will be at a solid clip batting 9th in this lineup.

His May production (OBP .200) is abysmal, he isn't even MLB roster worthy at that level of production. Pitchers have adjusted, how he adjusts in return will go a long way as to whether he will be a valuable contributor or not.

It's likely somewhere in between these two points, but needs to be over .330/.340 to be a regular player, unless he is able to develop some power without sacrificing his ability for contact, a trade off nearly every ML hitter considers.

 

[DoUEvenShift]

Nick says FUCK the haters!

[ShoeLessRob]

Let’s start a thread about Leury now. 

[reiks12]

Wow imagine that, 2 weeks doesnt define a player. Who would have thought?

[DoUEvenShift]

Nicky with an RBI double:

Few posters in this thread: "bUt iT wAsNt A hOmERuN. wE NeEd hOmErUnS fRoM hIs dRaFt pOsiTiTiON"

[wegner]

Exactly the type of player you choose with the 4th pick in the draft ?

[reiks12]

3 minutes ago, DoUEvenShift said:

Nicky with an RBI double:

Few posters in this thread: "bUt iT wAsNt A hOmERuN. wE NeEd hOmErUnS fRoM hIs dRaFt pOsiTiTiON"

They won't post in here for a while.

[hi8is]

Told ya the pop was there. Still think he can become good for 10. Time to get back to reading Play Girl.

Edited May 18, 2021 by hi8is
Edited for accuracy

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, reiks12 said:

According to this forum its not a problem for players to go through cold spells unless its Nick Madrigal. He had a .790 OPS in April and you all forgot about that. 2 Weeks is all it takes for you all to go rabid again. I look forward to laughing at you when he comes out of this and goes on a tear. 

The good news is that when the haters come out, so does Nicky’s power