Lynn to IL; Burdi up

[reiks12]

24 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I understand Dunning took on mythical status the moment he left the team, and the trade could very well come back to burn us. But let's be real:  this board would have gone absolutely bananas if Dunning was penciled in as a third starter on a team with World Series aspirations. As it is one of the primary knocks on this team is that it didn't get a *fourth* veteran starter during the offseason to bring stability to the rotation. Imagine if we only went into the season with two!

he gained mythical status when he pitched a gem against the Twins in a season he was coming back from TJS.

[ShoeLessRob]

22 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

True, I just think people who have preferred the Sox keep Dunning, and spend $ on a FA SP or two.  Instead, we traded 6 years of Dunning for 1 year of an underpaid SP.  And then we didn't even use those savings to upgrade the team in the meaningful way.  I think its fair to cast criticism at the move.  I hated it.  Still don't love it.  Happy to have Lynn as he is what the Sox need in a #2, but it sucks to have given up 6+ years of Dunning for just 1 season of him.   

This 100%. Just shows the ineptitude of the front office and lack of desire to sign premier off season talent. I like Lynn, but if he walks after this year then this is/was a terrible trade.

Edited April 20, 2021 by ShoeLessRob

[35thstreetswarm]

5 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

he gained mythical status when he pitched a gem against the Twins in a season he was coming back from TJS.

Not really. He became a pleasant surprise that people were cautiously optimistic about, but nobody was praising the heavens we had Dane f'ing Dunning on our team. Go back and read threads from around the playoffs -- the narrative was "I can't believe we don't have a third starter."  Dane Dunning didn't count. Then he got pulled in the first inning of the game he started. That was the final image of Dunning people would have carried into the offseason and beaten him over the head with had he never been traded.  Guaranteed.

Edited April 20, 2021 by 35thstreetswarm

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

True, I just think people who have preferred the Sox keep Dunning, and spend $ on a FA SP or two.  Instead, we traded 6 years of Dunning for 1 year of an underpaid SP.  And then we didn't even use those savings to upgrade the team in the meaningful way.  I think its fair to cast criticism at the move.  I hated it.  Still don't love it.  Happy to have Lynn as he is what the Sox need in a #2, but it sucks to have given up 6+ years of Dunning for just 1 season of him.   

This. Exactly this.

Equally bad [IMO] is/was that Lynn is old and fat, which makes it unlikely for him to fight off age-related regression and injury long enough to make sense to re-sign him. So, if 2021 was the year that they decided to go "All-In," and push in all their chips, it was dumb to back the Lynn acquisition with Cease as the #5, and no bench depth to get through injuries. Especially, given that LAD and SDP look to be flat-out more talented than the SOX.

In other words, they punted on the longer-term by giving up 6 years of Dunning, while NOT doing enough this offseason to increase their margin for error in THIS season. That is, if 2021 is, in their view, "their year." 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[harkness99]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This. Exactly this.

Equally bad [IMO] is/was that Lynn is old and fat, which makes it unlikely for him to fight off Father Time's inevitable victory long enough to make sense to re-sign him. So, if 2021 was the year that they decided to go "All-In," and push in all their chips, it was dumb to back the Lynn acquisition with Cease as the #5, and no bench depth to get through injuries. Especially, given that LAD and SDP look to be flat-out more talented than the SOX.

In other words, they punted on the longer-term by giving up 6 years of Dunning, while NOT doing enough this offseason to increase their margin for error in THIS season, if 2021 was, in their view "their year." 

But dunning is unproven and pitches about 4-5 innings a game...

 

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This. Exactly this.

Equally bad [IMO] is/was that Lynn is old and fat, which makes it unlikely for him to fight off age-related regression and injury long enough to make sense to re-sign him. So, if 2021 was the year that they decided to go "All-In," and push in all their chips, it was dumb to back the Lynn acquisition with Cease as the #5, and no bench depth to get through injuries. Especially, given that LAD and SDP look to be flat-out more talented than the SOX.

In other words, they punted on the longer-term by giving up 6 years of Dunning, while NOT doing enough this offseason to increase their margin for error in THIS season. That is, if 2021 is, in their view, "their year." 

IDK about your second point. He's in great pitching shape even though he's a fatty.

I do have issues with trading Dunning for Lynn - I had issues at the time because I am a fan of Dunning and thought he was one of those arms that is incredibly underrated in the modern game - command first, pure stuff second. Bieber is obviously amazing and I'm not claiming Dunning will be Bieber, but Bieber was another overlooked command first arm that exploded onto the scene in the big leagues.

I think Lynn is really good and was wrong about him being able to sustain it, but I just didn't like moving one of our more proven - if not the most proven - young arm with years of control for a rental. It's one of those moves that can really bite you in the ass when you're a, sadly, cost conscious organization. Given that you could have acquired an arm of Lynn's caliber with money and kept Dunning for depth, I was never going to agree with the decision because you can never have too much pitching.

I agree 10000% with your last paragraph.

[Two-Gun Pete]

43 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

IDK about your second point. He's in great pitching shape even though he's a fatty.

I do have issues with trading Dunning for Lynn - I had issues at the time because I am a fan of Dunning and thought he was one of those arms that is incredibly underrated in the modern game - command first, pure stuff second. Bieber is obviously amazing and I'm not claiming Dunning will be Bieber, but Bieber was another overlooked command first arm that exploded onto the scene in the big leagues.

I think Lynn is really good and was wrong about him being able to sustain it, but I just didn't like moving one of our more proven - if not the most proven - young arm with years of control for a rental. It's one of those moves that can really bite you in the ass when you're a, sadly, cost conscious organization. Given that you could have acquired an arm of Lynn's caliber with money and kept Dunning for depth, I was never going to agree with the decision because you can never have too much pitching.

I agree 10000% with your last paragraph.

Or, we could look at it as Lynn being unable to successfully go even 20 IP with the SOX without having to go on the IL.

At a soon-to-be 34 years of age, and his body type, and his [lack of] dedication to keeping his body in shape over his career, I doubt that he'll get better at pitching, while getting healthier going forward. Given this, and the likely work stoppage in 2022, I don't know that I would want to extend Lynn, regardless of how he finishes 2021.

I likewise agree that it was moronic to lead the offseason with the acquisition of a rental. I also agree that Lynn is/was good, and hope/pray that this IL stint isn't the start of more frequent vacations on the IL going forward. And I agree that non-strikeout pitchers are grossly underrated in today's game. [Which may have beeen a market inefficiency for a budget-conscious team to exploit.]

Edited April 20, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Harry Chappas]

5 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

This 100%. Just shows the ineptitude of the front office and lack of desire to sign premier off season talent. I like Lynn, but if he walks after this year then this is/was a terrible trade.

Who is the pitching talent that they could have signed?  There was no free agent market so they did what they had to do, traded for a guy and signed a guy.  The guy they signed has pitched well..... arguably better than Dunning but the whining will never stop because they didn't outbid the Dodgers for Bauer.

[ShoeLessRob]

58 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Who is the pitching talent that they could have signed?  There was no free agent market so they did what they had to do, traded for a guy and signed a guy.  The guy they signed has pitched well..... arguably better than Dunning but the whining will never stop because they didn't outbid the Dodgers for Bauer.

That’s your opinion, just the same as what I said was mine. The team has had one of the lower payrolls over the past several seasons and kept billing that “the money will be spent”. Spent on who? Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso, Joakim Soria, the list goes on. They allocated their “funds” poorly. We’ll see if they are able to resign their pending big free agents. But this topic gets rehashed over and over again. 

[Dam8610]

20 hours ago, Blackout Friday said:

Whoever said that would be the high guy on him. Solid 3’s have a ton of value. 

No, they wouldn't have. I've long felt that players with Dunning's profile have been undervalued in the scouting world, and it looks like he's showing why.

6 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I don't disagree with any of that.  It's just funny to see Dunning regarded as this darling when he would have been dragged mercilessly for the last several months if he had not changed hat colors.  

There was a wide variety of opinion on him. Those who would've dragged him are the ones who were happy about the trade. Those of us who were upset about the trade wouldn't have dragged him. You're never going to make everyone happy because opinions vary widely.

6 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

True, I just think people who have preferred the Sox keep Dunning, and spend $ on a FA SP or two.  Instead, we traded 6 years of Dunning for 1 year of an underpaid SP.  And then we didn't even use those savings to upgrade the team in the meaningful way.  I think its fair to cast criticism at the move.  I hated it.  Still don't love it.  Happy to have Lynn as he is what the Sox need in a #2, but it sucks to have given up 6+ years of Dunning for just 1 season of him.   

Exactly, buying Bauer and keeping Dunning seems like the smarter play than trading 6 years of Dunning for 1 year of Lynn. Did then, still does now.

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

No, they wouldn't have. I've long felt that players with Dunning's profile have been undervalued in the scouting world, and it looks like he's showing why.

There was a wide variety of opinion on him. Those who would've dragged him are the ones who were happy about the trade. Those of us who were upset about the trade wouldn't have dragged him. You're never going to make everyone happy because opinions vary widely.

Exactly, buying Bauer and keeping Dunning seems like the smarter play than trading 6 years of Dunning for 1 year of Lynn. Did then, still does now.

Sure, but how are Bauer + Dunning a substitute for Lynn financially?

[Dam8610]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Sure, but how are Bauer + Dunning a substitute for Lynn financially?

Who cares?

[Vulture]

2 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

That’s your opinion, just the same as what I said was mine. The team has had one of the lower payrolls over the past several seasons and kept billing that “the money will be spent”. Spent on who? Jon Jay, Yonder Alonso, Joakim Soria, the list goes on. They allocated their “funds” poorly. We’ll see if they are able to resign their pending big free agents. But this topic gets rehashed over and over again. 

You didn’t answer the question though. Aside from Bauer there were no pitchers of Lynn’s caliber available

[ron883]

28 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Who cares?

Reality

[ShoeLessRob]

11 minutes ago, Vulture said:

You didn’t answer the question though. Aside from Bauer there were no pitchers of Lynn’s caliber available

I won’t lie I’m focusing only on Bauer cause it made the most sense. I can’t remember the other free agent SP’s, just the onslaught of trades the Padres made.

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Who cares?

The owners and FO hence reality.

[Dam8610]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

The owners and FO hence reality.

Well hopefully we'll have a new owner in the very near future and our front office won't be forced into stupid trades by "financial constraints".

[joejoedairy]

Stiever up for tomorrow but not necessarily starting.

I'd say just start him and see if he can give you 4 or so

[reiks12]

18 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Not really. He became a pleasant surprise that people were cautiously optimistic about, but nobody was praising the heavens we had Dane f'ing Dunning on our team. Go back and read threads from around the playoffs -- the narrative was "I can't believe we don't have a third starter."  Dane Dunning didn't count. Then he got pulled in the first inning of the game he started. That was the final image of Dunning people would have carried into the offseason and beaten him over the head with had he never been traded.  Guaranteed.

We will never know. We all knew he wasnt ready for a ton of pitches following his TJS, so the 3rd playoff game start wasnt a surprise. If you go back nobody is blaming Dunning for that. I know we needed a 3rd starter like Lynn, I just wish the Rangers would have asked for someone else. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by reiks12

[ptatc]

6 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Well hopefully we'll have a new owner in the very near future and our front office won't be forced into stupid trades by "financial constraints".

Not going to happen. There is only one team maybe 2 that operate this way, the Dodgers and maybe Mets now. It's unlikely that there will be another.

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not going to happen. There is only one team maybe 2 that operate this way, the Dodgers and maybe Mets now. It's unlikely that there will be another.

The difference is huge, though, between spending $170-200 million and being in the White Sox and Twins’ current midrange (literally #15/16) in terms of Opening Day payrolls.

You can look at it as we’re $80 million ahead of the very bottom (Indians) or $42 million behind the small market Padres.  That’s also $68 million behind the Yankees and $116 million behind LAD.

The Yankees and Astros are ahead of the Mets, and then also you have the Phillies, Angels and Red Sox.

So you could describe only the Dodgers as truly unfettered spenders.  It’s just the odds of making the postseason and especially advancing decrease by roughly one standard deviation for teams 11-20 and then again for 21-30.

Edited April 21, 2021 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

11 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Who cares?

So your post was pointless?  Ok cool.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

Well hopefully we'll have a new owner in the very near future and our front office won't be forced into stupid trades by "financial constraints".

While I hope your right about the former, financial constraints pretty much exist for every team to some extent.  Saying we should have given out the the largest AAV in baseball history to avoid giving up Dane Dunning is not a trade off baked in reality.

[Rusty_Kuntz]

I think ideally Musgrove and Dunning would have been great, although partially that's hindsight because they are both looking better than expected so far. I love Lynn, he's a true hoss who just attacks batters relentlessly. But if he goes after this year it was a pointless move. I thought after they made that deal they were going all in - I was obviously a fool. One year of Lynn with a team that seems close but not quite there feels like true White Sox, a move that feels like it's more for showing the fan base they are trying to win without really doing what's required to get the team to that level. If they sign Lynn to a reasonable two year deal I will feel much better about it, obviously.   

I would have preferred they kept Dunning and traded Cease (if possible). 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Rusty_Kuntz said:

I think ideally Musgrove and Dunning would have been great, although partially that's hindsight because they are both looking better than expected so far. I love Lynn, he's a true hoss who just attacks batters relentlessly. But if he goes after this year it was a pointless move. I thought after they made that deal they were going all in - I was obviously a fool. One year of Lynn with a team that seems close but not quite there feels like true White Sox, a move that feels like it's more for showing the fan base they are trying to win without really doing what's required to get the team to that level. If they sign Lynn to a reasonable two year deal I will feel much better about it, obviously.   

I would have preferred they kept Dunning and traded Cease (if possible). 

And if Cease has 3 games in a row where he looks like he has turned the corner while Dunn gets hit hard in 3 in a row, then the actors become quite dramatic once more in the Soxtalk production of SSS Theater.