That’s a Nicky Two Strikes Winner!!

[chitownsportsfan]

Edit: Nah, fuck it. Some thing speak for themselves.

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[reiks12]

the pitcher there had a very slow delivery, im surprised Robert didnt steal and then have grandal bunt. Total headscratcher

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Tony larussa was not using advanced team metrics there. Thats pretty obvious to me. How can you have advanced metrics on grandals ability to do something hes done twice in 950ish career games and 3500 PA's. And yes, Robert has an incredible chance of swiping a bag vs travino. 

We can agree to disagree on this. It was a boneheaded move that put the game in the hands of a lesser hitter and gave up an out despite robert being able to steal without doing. Nicky big stick bailed him out though like the machine he is!

That's fine but let me ask you this. What do you think the entire purpose of the analytics department is? Do they just take the analytics published for everyone to see and feed it to the team? They look at individual matchups of upcoming series and games for situations like this.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine but let me ask you this. What do you think the entire purpose of the analytics department is? Do they just take the analytics published for everyone to see and feed it to the team? They look at individual matchups of upcoming series and games for situations like this.

I'm sure Tony is "open minded" to some analytics thinking. I don't want to say he's not at all willing to listen, but LaRussa is not the type of manager that is going to manage by a data book. Heck, even defensive positioning I think the White Sox have taken a step backwards from where they were last year - analytically speaking. It's his show.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

the pitcher there had a very slow delivery, im surprised Robert didnt steal and then have grandal bunt. Total headscratcher

See, in that situation bunting would make a ton of sense.

Man on third can score with outs being recorded or passed balls. Man on second, you still need a hit. There's an article in this thread posted by another poster who I'm not supposed to name that breaks that down pretty good lol.

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

the pitcher there had a very slow delivery, im surprised Robert didnt steal and then have grandal bunt. Total headscratcher

Would have worked as well.  There's nothing really to critique about TLR last night he pushed all the right buttons imo.  He's been bad at times this year but last night wasn't an example.  Hamilton's strong arm paid off in the defensive sub and the bunt did its job getting a man in scoring position and causing Texas to play shallow to try and throw him out at home led to Nick's double.

Edited April 25, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[Chicago White Sox]

Let’s think about this objectively.  The Sox had three options last night once Robert got on base:

1. Do Nothing - Let Grandal, Yermin, & Hamilton each have a shot to drive Robert in from 1st base, but risk a potential double-play taking out your base-runner
2. Have Robert Steal - Potentially allow the same three hitters a chance to drive Robert in from 2nd, but risk a caught-stealing taking out your base-runner
3. Have Yas Sac Bunt - Potentially allow Hamilton & Madrigal a chance to drive Robert in from 2nd, but take away the bat from your hottest hitter, risk a botched bunt attempt, and create an extra force-out opportunity for two ground-ball prone hitters

IMO, option #3 doesn’t make sense when you a great base-stealer in Robert.  Giving up an out to give 50% of your expected chances of knocking in the winning run to a guy who has been a 67 wRC+ hitter in his career is the definition of insanity.  And the reason option #1 was scary (GIDP risk), should also apply to option #3 given the ground-ball rates of Billy & Nick (I fully understand they are faster than Yas).  I get it ultimately worked out, but the plan pretty much relied on Madrigal getting a base hit to work whereas option #2 potentially provides more options.  I bet if someone ran the actual math having Robert steal has the greatest chance of getting a single run.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Chicago White Sox

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine but let me ask you this. What do you think the entire purpose of the analytics department is? Do they just take the analytics published for everyone to see and feed it to the team? They look at individual matchups of upcoming series and games for situations like this.

If Grandal has 2 sac bunts his entire career, what do you think the analytics department would have to say about having him lay on down? I do know the loudest poster in this argument besides Ray would have been up in arms if Yas popped one up.

I am not opposed to bunts in certain situations. This one took the bat out of Yermin’s hands, which the way he was swinging, even if Robert was still on first, he might have drove him in.and created a force at every base which could have been a bailout. And Hamilton isn’t exactly a run producer as a hitter, which left it up to Madrigal to get a hit. 

Frankly if the analytics department thinks the best way to score a run is to set up runners on first and second for Billy Hamilton, it make be time that department gets cleaned out.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm sure Tony is "open minded" to some analytics thinking. I don't want to say he's not at all willing to listen, but LaRussa is not the type of manager that is going to manage by a data book. Heck, even defensive positioning I think the White Sox have taken a step backwards from where they were last year - analytically speaking. It's his show.

I would disagree. He was one of the first managers to embrace analytics.  He may not always follow them but you can bet he uses them in his decisions.  He has always been known as a person who takes information from all sources and his highly intelligent. 

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If Grandal has 2 sac bunts his entire career, what do you think the analytics department would have to say about having him lay on down? I do know the loudest poster in this argument besides Ray would have been up in arms if Yas popped one up.

I am not opposed to bunts in certain situations. This one took the bat out of Yermin’s hands, which the way he was swinging, even if Robert was still on first, he might have drove him in.and created a force at every base which could have been a bailout. And Hamilton isn’t exactly a run producer as a hitter, which left it up to Madrigal to get a hit. 

True. On the flip side Grandal has been awful hitting lately. So maybe the possibility of another groundsball to the right side for a double play outweighs the fact the he hasn't bunted very often in games because he is normally a very good hitter.

Edited April 25, 2021 by ptatc

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If Grandal has 2 sac bunts his entire career, what do you think the analytics department would have to say about having him lay on down? I do know the loudest poster in this argument besides Ray would have been up in arms if Yas popped one up.

I am not opposed to bunts in certain situations. This one took the bat out of Yermin’s hands, which the way he was swinging, even if Robert was still on first, he might have drove him in.and created a force at every base which could have been a bailout. And Hamilton isn’t exactly a run producer as a hitter, which left it up to Madrigal to get a hit. 

Prima facie grandal was comfie bunting because he laid down a perfect bunt.  I am sure TLR asked at some point every guy on this squad if they feel OK about bunting and had that info when he asked grandal to lay it down in the 9th.  TLR has made mistakes this year, this wasn't one of them. It worked perfectly. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[black jack]

I didn't like the bunt at the time, but you can't argue with the results.  

I'm not a fan of stealing bases either in low scoring games.  If Tim didn't get tossed out at second we aren't even talking about the ninth inning.  

Edited April 25, 2021 by black jack

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Prima facie grandal was comfie bunting because he laid down a perfect bunt.  I am sure TLR asked at some point every guy on this squad if they feel OK about bunting and had that info when he asked grandal to lay it down in the 9th.  TLR has made mistakes this year, this wasn't one of them. It worked perfectly. 

Have the guy given the biggest contract in team history bunt, have the bat taken out of the hands of the teams hottest hitter, to have Billy Hamilton try to drive a run home from second. It worked because Madrigal got a hit. It was stupid. Sometimes things work out. Don Zimmer was managing the Cubs in 1989 when every stupid thing he called worked out. With 1 out and the bases loaded, he put in a hit and run. Of course the guy hits a little dribbler just inside the first base line to score 3. Zimmer is called a genius. That didn’t last long.

[Vulture]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, I domt buy this at all. 

Luis robert was on first base. Luis has a higher percentage of stealing second successfully than grandal has of putting down a sac bunt successfully. Larussa absolutely decreased their odds of scoring a run. It makes zero sense to sacrifice Luis robeert over to second base with Trevino catching an a reliever on the mound. Luis steals that base with ease. 

Yasmani has two sacrifices in his entire career. People always act like sac bunts never fail when they do quite often. 

Grandal’s bunting technique looked perfect though. Maybe instead of looking at a stat TLR looked at the apparent fact Grandal has the ability to bunt

[Vulture]

 

[YourWhatHurts]

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Have the guy given the biggest contract in team history bunt, have the bat taken out of the hands of the teams hottest hitter, to have Billy Hamilton try to drive a run home from second. It worked because Madrigal got a hit. It was stupid. Sometimes things work out. Don Zimmer was managing the Cubs in 1989 when every stupid thing he called worked out. With 1 out and the bases loaded, he put in a hit and run. Of course the guy hits a little dribbler just inside the first base line to score 3. Zimmer is called a genius. That didn’t last long.

I agree with this.  TLR made another bad move and this time his players bailed him out.  Lucky for him he is managing one of the most talented teams in baseball right now because otherwise he'd have no chance.

I didn't like the hire for all of the most obvious reasons, but I never would have guessed he would be a Ricky-level manager or worse.  I expected better than this.  I am indeed surprised.

I have noticed even in the game threads fathom is out-managing Tony.  This really has to be TLRs final season one way or another.  But even if it is I am going to guess the Sox have no plan in place beyond him.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Vulture said:

 

they still shift him so... 

Also, thank you for pointing out the possibility that grandal may have never bunted right handed in his entire career before last night.

[Vulture]

Well bunting is one of the few things I’ve seen Grandal do well, so perhaps there’s a possibility tlr knows something your perusal of stats didn’t find

[YourWhatHurts]

9 minutes ago, Vulture said:

 

I think it's worth noting that the clip you posted is nobody out, nobody on, bottom of the 2nd and he's looking to get on base there.  

Grandal is also one of the better bets on the team to take a walk, albeit the ump last night was one of the worst umps you're ever going to see.  But still maybe he walks, and even if not, Robert is fast and King isn't exactly overwhelming in terms of stuff.  He is the kind of RP this team is going to light up anyway.

I just see it as giving up an out and taking the bat out of the best hitter's hands with the game on the line.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Well bunting is one of the few things I’ve seen Grandal do well, so perhaps there’s a possibility tlr knows something your perusal of stats didn’t find

It's funny, in the clip you provided, Kruk said his bunt wasn't even a good one. It is also interesting you have no problem setting things up for Billy Hamilton to drive in a run.

[YourWhatHurts]

51 minutes ago, ptatc said:

True. On the flip side Grandal has been awful hitting lately. So maybe the possibility of another groundsball to the right side for a double play outweighs the fact the he hasn't bunted very often in games because he is normally a very good hitter.

If you are so worried about Grandal' bat 1) don't hit him 6th anyway and 2) pinch hit if you want because Collins is on the bench and defensively he has been outplaying Grandal all year.

[SoxBlanco]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Let’s think about this objectively.  The Sox had three options last night once Robert got on base:

1. Do Nothing - Let Grandal, Yermin, & Hamilton each have a shot to drive Robert in from 1st base, but risk a potential double-play taking out your base-runner
2. Have Robert Steal - Potentially allow the same three hitters a chance to drive Robert in from 2nd, but risk a caught-stealing taking out your base-runner
3. Have Yas Sac Bunt - Potentially allow Hamilton & Madrigal a chance to drive Robert in from 2nd, but take away the bat from your hottest hitter, risk a botched bunt attempt, and create an extra force-out opportunity for two ground-ball prone hitters

IMO, option #3 doesn’t make sense when you a great base-stealer in Robert.  Giving up an out to give 50% of your expected chances of knocking in the winning run to a guy who has been a 67 wRC+ hitter in his career is the definition of insanity.  And the reason option #1 was scary (GIDP risk), should also apply to option #3 given the ground-ball rates of Billy & Nick (I fully understand they are faster than Yas).  I get it ultimately worked out, but the plan pretty much relied on Madrigal getting a base hit to work whereas option #2 potentially provides more options.  I bet if someone ran the actual math having Robert steal has the greatest chance of getting a single run.

We need @gusguyman to run his simulations. 

[Vulture]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It's funny, in the clip you provided, Kruk said his bunt wasn't even a good one. It is also interesting you have no problem setting things up for Billy Hamilton to drive in a run.

He got a base hit so it must have been considering that was the objective. I don’t know if you actually watched the game but Grandals bunting technique was clearly superior to anyone else who has attempted to bunt for the Sox this year. Whether setting up Hamilton and Madrigal was a good idea is another question entirely

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

We need @gusguyman to run his simulations. 

Yeah, would love to see that

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Vulture said:

He got a base hit so it must have been considering that was the objective. I don’t know if you actually watched the game but Grandals bunting technique was clearly superior to anyone else who has attempted to bunt for the Sox this year. Whether setting up Hamilton and Madrigal was a good idea is another question entirely

Who cares? Even being successful with the bunt took the bat away from Yermin and required Hamilton or Madrigal to get a hit. So even being successful,  LaRussas strategy required your 8 an 9 hitters to hit .500. If it was getting Robert to 3rd, I could see it. It would make the pitcher keep breaking pitches up since the catcher was having difficulty blocking balls and not much of a fly ball would have been necessary to score Robert. It worked out only because Nicky 2 Strikes is a lot better than much of Soxtalk wants to give credit.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Dick Allen