The TLR Manager Thread

[SCCWS]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Yes he sucked but I'm of the opinion that maybe he might have been a little better if he wasn't running the bases and maybe was discussing how to attack his next group of hitters with Grandal and Katz.   

Agree he never should have been on base but that is a weak excuse . Katz and Grandal aren't in the bullpen when Hendriks is usually brought into a game. Certainly Grandal and Katz could have done a mound visit to discuss the next group of hitters if it was needed.

Now maybe somebody can determine if Hendricks is not as effective  when he goes back to pitch a second inning. 

[Kyyle23]

4 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Agree he never should have been on base but that is a weak excuse . Katz and Grandal aren't in the bullpen when Hendriks is usually brought into a game. Certainly Grandal and Katz could have done a mound visit to discuss the next group of hitters if it was needed.

Now maybe somebody can determine if Hendricks is not as effective  when he goes back to pitch a second inning. 

It's not an excuse as much as another fuck up

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

We have 70+ more years of futility. 

Then arguing about no back-to-back playoffs is disingenuous, because if the same playoff format existed for the majority of the Sox tenure, the Sox would have been in the playoffs:

• Twice in the 30s
• Twice in the 40s
• Eleven years straight from 1951 to 1961
• Five years straight from 1963 to 1967

I can crunch the 70s and 80s later, but it's a pointless endeavor to argue across time when the fundamentals of the game have changed.

[Texsox]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

Then arguing about no back-to-back playoffs is disingenuous, because if the same playoff format existed for the majority of the Sox tenure, the Sox would have been in the playoffs:

• Twice in the 30s
• Twice in the 40s
• Eleven years straight from 1951 to 1961
• Five years straight from 1963 to 1967

I can crunch the 70s and 80s later, but it's a pointless endeavor to argue across time when the fundamentals of the game have changed.

Thank you for the research. 

Are there franchises during that same time frame that did have back to back play off appearances? 

[chetkincaid]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think we can stop saying this about Eaton now. He's slashing 211/299/368. He's not good, and he hasn't been good for quite some time. He had a nice first week, but that's about it.

In Eaton's last 284 PA's (2019-2020), he has a wRC+ of 83, and his wOBA is 291. Slashing 220/290/378. He's not getting any younger. That's nearly half of a season - which could improve I guess - and it's not a glowing endorsement.

We all said this would happen when they went the cheap route and signed him. 

[Quin]

Just now, Texsox said:

Thank you for the research. 

Are there franchises during that same time frame that did have back to back play off appearances? 

From 1950 to 1967, the Yankees were the only AL team to make the playoffs back-to-back.

The Indians broke through in '54, Sox in '59, Twins in '65, Orioles in '66, Red Sox in '67. Of those, only the Orioles won.

[caulfield12]

59 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The worst player in baseball last year was EE.  I assume we could all agree on that at least.

Not Mazara?

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, Quin said:

Eh, I'd put the Mariners, D-Backs, Rockies all comfortably worse than the White Sox.

Pirates...Tigers, despite all their high picks now.  Marlins, maybe.

Edited May 6, 2021 by caulfield12

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Not Mazara?

It was actually J.D. Martinez, according to FanGraphs. He's really bad at defense.

[RTC]

30 minutes ago, Texsox said:

We have 70+ more years of futility. 

 

11 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Thank you for the research. 

Are there franchises during that same time frame that did have back to back play off appearances? 

 

Somebody can double check me on this, but since Jerry took over in 1981 (Sox have 6 post-season appearances) I believe the list of non-expansion teams that have fewer post-season appearances during that time is:

Mariners and Royals.  That's it.  

(Rox and Marlins have only existed since 1993 and Nats should include Expos over that same time period.)

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, chetkincaid said:

We all said this would happen when they went the cheap route and signed him. 

Maybe, but most wanted the Sox to pay up for Joc Pederson. How has he been over that same timeframe?

Springer was the guy or Harper or Machado.  If they signed Manny, Moncada is probably a RF, maybe a CF now. Going cheap rarely pays off. The Sox have really sucked at signing the middle guys. They have done well with a couple of bargain guys, but once you get into the middle class, JR, KW and RH are lost.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Dick Allen

[ThirdGen]

51 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Lowest win percentage this century. 

Not even remotely true.  15 teams lower this century.

[fathom]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think we can stop saying this about Eaton now. He's slashing 211/299/368. He's not good, and he hasn't been good for quite some time. He had a nice first week, but that's about it.

In Eaton's last 284 PA's (2019-2020), he has a wRC+ of 83, and his wOBA is 291. Slashing 220/290/378. He's not getting any younger. That's nearly half of a season - which could improve I guess - and it's not a glowing endorsement.

What sucks is would anyone be surprised if these nagging injuries last the rest of the year with Eaton?  He’s the type that seems once something goes wrong, he falls off a cliff and doesn’t recover.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

34 minutes ago, Quin said:

Then arguing about no back-to-back playoffs is disingenuous, because if the same playoff format existed for the majority of the Sox tenure, the Sox would have been in the playoffs:

• Twice in the 30s
• Twice in the 40s
• Eleven years straight from 1951 to 1961
• Five years straight from 1963 to 1967

I can crunch the 70s and 80s later, but it's a pointless endeavor to argue across time when the fundamentals of the game have changed.

If it helps we can only use the Reign of Reindorf to talk about no back to back playoffs if that makes you feel better. Normally we just say history of the franchise because that is a fact. Would've made it this year or that year if playoff formats had been different or if there was no strike in 94 etc. doesn't change the facts.  It's still been a long ass time for a franchise with 120 years of history through luck , injuries, mismanagement, cheap owners , whatever to never make the playoffs 2 years in a row. Because of the rebuild there's a shot at it but once again Sox misfortune/mismangement w/e rears it's consistently ugly head like it has for 120 yrs.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, fathom said:

What sucks is would anyone be surprised if these nagging injuries last the rest of the year with Eaton?  He’s the type that seems once something goes wrong, he falls off a cliff and doesn’t recover.

Which is probably why he just should've been IL'd right away and Goodwin or Gonzalez brought up.

[Balta1701]

One thing that this thread allowed me to do is actually keep track of games where Tony LaRussa did something specific that caused a blowup.

1-Apr Failing to make review time window, Leury starts opening day, no pinch hitter for him late.

3-Apr Bullpen Usage - Bummer never used, Marshall allowed to blow game in the 9th.

4-Apr Bullpen usage - Hendriks not used in the 9th, Ruiz and Foster blow it.

*Several times could have PH for Leury or Hamilton, not done

7-Apr Bullpen usage - Foster comes in with Bummer and Hendriks needing work, gives up 5 runs. 

11-Apr Couple of poorly thought out bunts, pinch running for Mercedes early left no backup Ofs

13-Apr Williams hits 5th, Lamb hits 7th, Mercedes benched against Bieber. Could have kept Hendriks out to start the 10th.

27-Apr Attempts to kill Lucas Giolito. "We were looking for a single there." Insists postgame that he was awake.

5-May Messes up double-switch, runs team out of 10th inning, rulebook read to him by reporter.

Bolded are games where managerial decisions are particularly troublesome. Numerous other games - Vaughn, Madrigal being benched for Leury, Hamilton, and Williams. Lack of offdays for Abreu, Eaton.

 

There's at least 8 games so far this season where the manager has been a contributing factor in a loss, without counting guys that he chose to bench on the list more than once. Changing to a competent manager doesn't turn all of those into wins - maybe a better lineup still loses to Bieber as Cleveland's bullpen is outpitching us, maybe someone still gives up runs out of the bullpen, etc. But there's an awful lot of high-leverage events so far this season where people have been saying "the Manager contributed to a bad thing happening". 

["The Kids Can Play"]

37 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

The Athletic has another lovely article to provide us angst on this rainy day off

 

https://theathletic.com/2571204/2021/05/06/greenberg-tony-tony-tony-la-russa-has-done-it-again-and-it-feels-bad-for-white-sox-fans/?source=user_shared_article

I'm glad TLR is being blasted in the media nationally. In fact he can't get enough negative criticism for this recent blunder. TLR has already made numerous bad calls this young season, which probably cost The Sox several wins already.

If TLR had any class and dignity, which obviously he doesn't, he would walk into Reinsdorf's office today and thank Jerry for the Sox manager opportunity, but graciously resign as manager. It's unfortunate and sad that what should happen; won't happen.  

Also shame on his bench coach Miguel Cairo for also being ignorant and not advising the senile TLR the rules for extra innings in 2021.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

Give me a list of teams in the majors other than the Dodgers and Padres that would survive losing two possible All-Star outfielders (Eloy, Robert), a quality RF (Eaton - I did not expect him to be quality, but credit where it's due at this point in the season) and the primary quality backup (Engel) to injury. That is with...

1. The top position prospect emerging as an average LF (per quantitative metrics), but the manager refuses to trust him in the OF, instead trusting another non-OF (Lamb).
2. No minor league season since 2019. We had the alternate site, but Rutherford, Adolfo, Gonzalez, Sheets, and the rest aren't as talented as Vaughn. Sheets has gotten off to a hot start (in an incredibly short sample size of two games), but it's hard to have ready-to-go depth in the minors in May without minor league season since 2019. 
3. Leury would have been a serviceable 5th OF. Hamilton a serviceable 6th OF. 

In short, stop making excuses for a man that has shown repeatedly over the past decade that he is lazy and thinks he is better than everyone else in the game.

Our #1, #2, and #4 OFs are DL'd with our #3 hurting.    Sure it would have helped to have another OF, but there isn't depth that would overcome playing your 5th, 6th, and 7th OFs.

[Balta1701]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Our #1, #2, and #4 OFs are DL'd with our #3 hurting.    Sure it would have helped to have another OF, but there isn't depth that would overcome playing your 5th, 6th, and 7th OFs.

While that is true, the #2 and #3 OFs on that list are guys who you'd be surprised if they weren't on the IL a couple times this season based on their previous histories.

[fathom]

It’s frustrating that lost in all the bad decisions yesterday, pitching to Winker might be the worst.  I must be the only one who didn’t mind Garcia trying to steal.  That was the best chance of scoring multiple runs that inning if you’re going to let Hamilton bat.

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One thing that this thread allowed me to do is actually keep track of games where Tony LaRussa did something specific that caused a blowup.

2-Apr Failing to make review time window, Leury starts opening day, no pinch hitter for him late.

4-Apr Bullpen usage - Bummer never used in close game

5-Apr Bullpen usage - Foster blows game, Hendricks warms but never comes in

*Several times could have PH for Leury or Hamilton, not done

7-Apr Bullpen usage - Foster comes in with Bummer and Hendricks needing work, gives up 7 runs. 

11-Apr Couple of poorly thought out bunts, pinch running for Mercedes early left no backup Ofs

13-Apr Williams hits 5th, Lamb hits 7th, Mercedes benched against Bieber. Hendricks not used in the 10th.

27-Apr Attempts to kill Lucas Giolito. "We were looking for a single there." Insists postgame that he was awake.

5-May Messes up double-switch, runs team out of 10th inning, rulebook read to him by reporter.

Bolded are games where managerial decisions are particularly troublesome. Numerous other games - Vaughn, Madrigal being benched for Leury, Hamilton, and Williams. Lack of offdays for Abreu, Eaton.

 

There's at least 8 games so far this season where the manager has been a contributing factor in a loss, without counting guys that he chose to bench on the list more than once. Changing to a competent manager doesn't turn all of those into wins - maybe a better lineup still loses to Bieber as Cleveland's bullpen is outpitching us, maybe someone still gives up runs out of the bullpen, etc. But there's an awful lot of high-leverage events so far this season where people have been saying "the Manager contributed to a bad thing happening". 

Flip half of those and the Sox are 20-9 - the Sox are the best team in baseball. Without Eloy, Abreu and Grandal slumping, and the bullpen not hitting on all cylinders.

The ceiling on this team is artificially put in place by Mr. Hall of Fame Person, brother.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

While that is true, the #2 and #3 OFs on that list are guys who you'd be surprised if they weren't on the IL a couple times this season based on their previous histories.

How many times this offseason did some of us express concern over the likelihood of having too many slappy, crappy hitters in the lineup due to likely injury issues?

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Before saying the Chicago media is too tough, let’s note that this week there were two articles about grumbling in the locker room, and they were hosted by ESPN and The Athletic. The local press stayed out of that. The guy reading him the rule book yesterday, also the Athletic.

Not to mention the lawsuit filed against Tony La Russia’s animal foundation, which I don’t believe a single Chicago media person has even referenced since the lawsuit was filed.

The Sox were fortunate their $54M closer wasn’t hurt running the bases yesterday, and he shouldn’t have even been in the game at that point as Bummer should have been brought in to face LHB Barnhart.

Also, why have Hendriks pitch to hot LHB Winker, with two weak RHBs (.173 & .140) on deck. Literally every single move by Tony was wrong from the point Kopech was removed.

[Balta1701]

Just now, fathom said:

How many times this offseason did some of us express concern over the likelihood of having too many slappy, crappy hitters in the lineup due to likely injury issues?

Often enough that Rick Hahn went on the radio and complained about how tired he was of hearing people throwing "The Money will be Spent" back at him on Twitter.

[tray]

I have seen any number of occasions where a manager seeks clarification of a major league rule after a call by an umpire. Not knowing the technicalities or application (especially of a ridiculous new rule) was not a big deal, especially since it had no impact on the game and is a rare situation that will probably never present itself again while the absurd 10th inning ghost runner rule is still in place.   To unfamiliarity  with that "rule" was understandable and forgivable . Those who want to extract another pound of flesh from LaRussa, go ahead. Don't stop now boys.

Meanwhile, more self-flagellation by Sox fans after a tough loss. Woe-is-me, the Sox have been bad since before you were born.. OMG, you know, they could not compete with those Yankee dynasties, they lost to the Dodgers in '59 and were eliminated by the O's in  the '83 ALCS.   There are now 30 teams in mlb that are competing for a championship.  Sox Math that equates to one WS championship every 30 years. However, that is not  what to expect when you have teams like the Yankees and Dodgers. so maybe once in your lifetime should be what to expect, and we won in 2005, so probably sit back, strap it down and enjoy watching the games. Unless  you find that  b1tching incessantly about management and ownership is enjoyable or really want to see the Sox fail and the Cubs take over town. Then  keep grinding away.