VAfan Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Tony said: Here is what you can’t seem to understand. I’ll try and make it simple for you. Me being critical of Tony LaRussa doesn’t mean I think I could be a better baseball manager. Have you ever criticized a baseball player for his performance? If so...does that mean you think you can play better than him? There are 30 MLB Manager jobs. They aren’t easy to come by. Because they are so limited, I think it’s fair to have high expectations for the performance in said position. When someone in that position is continually making mistakes that an amateur can notice while they are happening..that deserves ridicule. Two things can be true at once. Tony LaRussa has won a lot of baseball games as a manager. He’s also making a lot of bad decisions for the White Sox at 76 years old. If you can’t deal with that, I can’t help you. So now you attempt to come off as smarter than me? It's these comments like "I'l try and make it simple for you." And "if you can't deal with that, I can't help you." Complete and total unnecessary crap. So many critics focus on things and claim they are "mistakes" when what they are are judgment calls. As I mentioned above, a judgment call is not necessarily a "mistake" and the alternative option wouldn't have necessarily worked out any better. What was a mistake, and was admitted to be one by TLR, was not knowing the rule about being able to substitute a runner for a pitcher in the 10th inning. But that was a new rule that many people might have missed, including the rest of the Sox coaching staff. It was also a mistake to leave in Foster too long in that one game, and Giolito against the Tigers when he was tiring. But none of those mistakes necessarily cost the Sox the game, even though they lost all 3. Meanwhile, do any of TLR's critics give him credit for anything he's done? He uses his entire club, for one. He's brought Vaughn along pretty well, letting him watch and learn while he eased him into the lineup. The Sox had Yermin Mercedes last year, but only TLR has used him. He put Danny Mendick in RF, and was quick to embrace Vaughn being able to play LF. There is zero evidence of any dissension in the clubhouse. He's been endorsed by all of the leaders of the team. The team is winning games and scoring runs near the top of the AL yet is last in HRs. Strikeouts are down; walks are up. The Sox have been in nearly every game. I don't think TLR is perfect, by any means. I expect TLR would give himself a middling grade so far on parts of his performance. But he's done pretty well overall, and has not let the loss of Jimenez and Robert derail the team at all. 2 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 10 hours ago, VAfan said: Yes, TLR made a mistake, and he admitted it. It's not the only one he's admitted. That doesn't warrant even 1% of the ridicule he receives from fans. I think it's fair to criticize moves that TLR makes. What I find rather offensive is the way posters on here think they are smarter about baseball than Tony LaRussa. That's total BS. That's why I wrote that NONE OF YOU COULD MANAGE A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM. So, if you want to question Tony, fine. I don't have a problem. If you want to try to come off like you are a genius and TLR is an idiot, I think you demean yourself, because that's total BS. TLR has made some mistakes. But he's also done some very good things, and he has the team in first place despite missing two of his most important hitters, a subpar start from Jose Abreu, his starting catcher hitting .113, every bullpen pitcher blowing something (other than Kopech), a very slow start from Yoan Moncada, etc. Since you want to yell... THIS IS LITERALLY NOT THE POINT, AND IT 100% DOES NOT MATTER. No one on this board is qualified to manage a major league baseball team. which has absolutely zero to the fact that neither is Tony LaRussa. Even if he was qualified, it still has nothing to do with anything, and is a worthless point. The only demeaning going on is people trying to associate laymen with actual baseball dugout staff. Also, if you were smart enough to realize it, you are admitting in your own post, by your own standards, that you aren't smart enough to comment about how good of a job that TLR is doing either, but has that stopped you from doing it? Nope. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 10 hours ago, VAfan said: Yes, TLR made a mistake, and he admitted it. It's not the only one he's admitted. That doesn't warrant even 1% of the ridicule he receives from fans. I think it's fair to criticize moves that TLR makes. What I find rather offensive is the way posters on here think they are smarter about baseball than Tony LaRussa. That's total BS. That's why I wrote that NONE OF YOU COULD MANAGE A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM. So, if you want to question Tony, fine. I don't have a problem. If you want to try to come off like you are a genius and TLR is an idiot, I think you demean yourself, because that's total BS. TLR has made some mistakes. But he's also done some very good things, and he has the team in first place despite missing two of his most important hitters, a subpar start from Jose Abreu, his starting catcher hitting .113, every bullpen pitcher blowing something (other than Kopech), a very slow start from Yoan Moncada, etc. Correct. And none of us could ever be a reporter of Passan or Rosenthal's caliber, so if they're writing that the White Sox's locker room is questioning La Russa, who are we to question their reporting, using your logic? No one here thinks they could manage a major league team. They think there are people who could manage this team better than Tony La Russa. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Of course, the other massive difference is Abreu was the AL MVP...as opposed to a below-average MLB first baseman in all aspects except RBI production this year. If Abreu is MVP quality with Renteria managing and below average with Tony, and it's not Tony's fault, why is it all because of Tony if guys play better? It's almost if you hate Tony, he is responsible for all the bad and none of the good. If you like him, he is the reason for all of the good and none of the bad. I think if they had Lynn and this version of Rodon last season, Ricky would probably still be managing the team. Not that it's not good that he is gone. I don't buy Andrew Vaughn gained valuable knowledge riding pine. That's BS, and even those that are trying to spin it, know it. Edited May 11, 2021 by Dick Allen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If Abreu is MVP quality with Renteria managing and below average with Tony, and it's not Tony's fault, why is it all because of Tony if guys play better? It's almost if you hate Tony, he is responsible for all the bad and none of the good. If you like him, he is the reason for all of the good and none of the bad. I think if they had Lynn and this version of Rodon last season, Ricky would probably still be managing the team. Not that it's not good that he is. It’s strange that he is even polarizing like that. It’s just a baseball manager. I think a normal person just says, “Yep. That’s the manager. Think maybe he left Gio in too long that one start. Glad the team is in first though. Let’s see how the boys play through the summer. I know they are going to lose a ton more games.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdGen Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 10 hours ago, VAfan said: What was a mistake, and was admitted to be one by TLR, was not knowing the rule about being able to substitute a runner for a pitcher in the 10th inning. But that was a new rule that many people might have missed, including the rest of the Sox coaching staff. It was also a mistake to leave in Foster too long in that one game, and Giolito against the Tigers when he was tiring. But none of those mistakes necessarily cost the Sox the game, even though they lost all 3. What's maddening is when people talk about the games LaRussa supposedly lost for the Sox and they include the Giolito and Foster pitching decisions. Every freaking manager in the game will make the wrong decision on how long to leave in a starter, either pulling him too soon or not soon enough, and trusting the wrong reliever in certain situations multiple times in a season. Look at the criticism of Kevin Cash in the last World Series, or Joe Maddon in the Cubs/Indians World Series. Both probably made mistakes, just like LaRussa did, but nobody is calling them senile, too old to manage, drunk, out of touch with the game, sleeping on the bench, or whatever. I have come to the conclusion that there is a subset of Sox fandom that never watches anything other than Sox games, completely ignores even the opposing manager's decisions, and comes to conclusions in a complete vacuum of information related to the other 29 teams and the issues they sometimes face. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoYoIsMyHero Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Seems like everyone is ignoring certain realities to confirm their own bias. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35thstreetswarm Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Just now, ThirdGen said: I have come to the conclusion that there is a subset of Sox fandom that never watches anything other than Sox games, completely ignores even the opposing manager's decisions, and comes to conclusions in a complete vacuum of information related to the other 29 teams and the issues they sometimes face. 1000 times this. The relevant question is never "does this aspect of the White Sox fall short of my ideal scenario," but rather "does this aspect of the White Sox fall short of the baseline standard established by the real-life teams against which we are competing, such that it creates a competitive disadvantage". 85% of the illogical posts on this site could be cured if the poster asked him/herself question 2 instead of question 1. The failure to do so is why we constantly have people complaining that we don't have an all-star at every position (although oops, maybe we do now), or that our #5 starter is not performing like a #2 starter (although oops, ours is). All that said, I do think Tony's managing has the potential to be one of those "real" problems. It's unusual for managers to not know the rules, and to admit not seeing the obvious signs of a starter's fatigue. He needs to course-correct and stop missing layups, and quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said: 1000 times this. The relevant question is never "does this aspect of the White Sox fall short of my ideal scenario," but rather "does this aspect of the White Sox fall short of the baseline standard established by the real-life teams against which we are competing, such that it creates a competitive disadvantage". 85% of the illogical posts on this site could be cured if the poster asked him/herself question 2 instead of question 1. The failure to do so is why we constantly have people complaining that we don't have an all-star at every position (although oops, maybe we do now), or that our #5 starter is not performing like a #2 starter (although oops, ours is). All that said, I do think Tony's managing has the potential to be one of those "real" problems. It's unusual for managers to not know the rules, and to admit not seeing the obvious signs of a starter's fatigue. He needs to course-correct and stop missing layups, and quickly. There is no doubt that Tony isn't the only bad in game manager around, but he is the only one recently who has been caught actively not understanding the rules of the game that he is supposed to be ultimate on-field authority for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Lamar Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 JR isn't listening and hasn't listened for 40 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdGen Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 April 29. Sox vs Tigers 7 inning game Rodon looks borderline unhittable, but Tigers take a 1-0 lead into the bottom of the fifth. Mize gives up a single to Jake Lamb (who, by the way, sucks at hitting) Mize then walks two consecutive hitters on only nine pitches to load the bases with no one out. Everyone in the park can see Mize has lost it. And with Rodon on fire, you have to stop this rally now. The manager, one A.J. Hinch (patron saint of all that is good in managing) chooses to leave Mize in. Billy Hamilton and Leury Garcia follow up by driving in three runs, effectively ending the game based on how Rodon is pitching. What a moron that A.J. Hinch must be, not recognizing that Mize had lost it so bad that the Tigers got beat by Lamb, Hamilton and Garcia. See how easy that is? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ThirdGen said: April 29. Sox vs Tigers 7 inning game Rodon looks borderline unhittable, but Tigers take a 1-0 lead into the bottom of the fifth. Mize gives up a single to Jake Lamb (who, by the way, sucks at hitting) Mize then walks two consecutive hitters on only nine pitches to load the bases with no one out. Everyone in the park can see Mize has lost it. And with Rodon on fire, you have to stop this rally now. The manager, one A.J. Hinch (patron saint of all that is good in managing) chooses to leave Mize in. Billy Hamilton and Leury Garcia follow up by driving in three runs, effectively ending the game based on how Rodon is pitching. What a moron that A.J. Hinch must be, not recognizing that Mize had lost it so bad that the Tigers got beat by Lamb, Hamilton and Garcia. See how easy that is? That's fine and dandy but you manage a rebuilding team a lot different than you manage a contender. Also we do not know the status of his bullpen guys. He might have been trying to get Mize to fight through the inning for his development. Jerry Manuel used to get ripped for leaving Jon Garland in too long. Garland grew and got better, so when Ozzie left him him, the Ozzeroo was a genius. Besides, if you can't ever question LaRussa, how can you question Hinch? The Tony lovers don't even care if he doesn't know the rules. Edited May 11, 2021 by Dick Allen 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"The Kids Can Play" Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Renteria had two starters, one worth a damn in the playoffs. No Kopech, Cease and Rodon were not solid, no Lynn. Eloy was on the DL twice and unavailable for the playoffs. Robert and Tim also missed time. Parrot and Mazara were completely worthless. Yoan was recovering from COVID and limited. No .380 hitting Yermin, no Vaughn. Anyone denying the significant talent upgrade between 2020 and 2021 is not paying attention. Wow, South Side Hit Men....I think you need to pay more attention next time to the point I make. The comments I made were from this post of yours: 19 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: This comment is not pointed at you, but Ricky Renteria had a better record (20-12 after 32 games) with less talent at his disposal, and most here didn’t have the same standards and or provide the grace allotted to LaRussa. My point was yes maybe the roster was not as talented this year, but the talent he had were many of the same core players from this year. The point I was making is most of these current core players were crushing last year compared to this year. This is why Renteria had a better record after 32 games. Case in point: As of Aug 23 2020 when Sox won 6-5 over the Royals, to go to a (20-12) record and here are the key players and their YTD numbers after those 32 games: Box Score with YTD numbers after 32 games compared to their numbers YTD after 32 games this year: 2020 2021 Anderson .337/.378/.620 .296/.324/.449 Jimenez .322/.352/.652 OUT Grandal 241/.356/.422 .113/.378/.242 Abreu .318/.362/.667 .220/.317/.415 Moncada .261/.338/.443 .261/.362/.387 Robert .284/.331/.569 OUT until 2 weeks ago 316/.359/.465 1. Anderson was crushing it last year and at the time was leading the league in BA 2. Eloy was having huge year and your point of him on the DL is inaccurate. We were talking about 32 games and not the end of the season with Eloy. 3. Moncada relatively same numbers so your point he was recovering from Covid is not a valid point because he was hitting about the same. 4. Abreu numbers were obviously MVP like compared to this year. He was leading the league in RBI's. 5. Robert was having a great year and very similar to this year before being out two weeks ago. So your point that Robert missed time was not correct based at 32 games. 6. Grandal, even though he was having an off year to his previous lifetime averages, was having a much better season than this year. My only point you obviously didn't get, was several key core players were having a significantly better year in 2020 than this year through 32 games. Thus it's totally possible for Renteria to have a better record with so called lessor talent after 32 games last year. I was not saying the Sox team last year had more talent than this year. Of course this year's team is far superior on paper. I was simply saying the better record after 32 games was simply because of players last year performing at a higher level than this year. Your point attacking me that I haven't been paying attention couldn't be more false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said: Wow, South Side Hit Men....I think you need to pay more attention next time to the point I make. The comments I made were from this post of yours: 19 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: This comment is not pointed at you, but Ricky Renteria had a better record (20-12 after 32 games) with less talent at his disposal, and most here didn’t have the same standards and or provide the grace allotted to LaRussa. My point was yes maybe the roster was not as talented this year, but the talent he had were many of the same core players from this year. The point I was making is most of these current core players were crushing last year compared to this year. This is why Renteria had a better record after 32 games. Case in point: As of Aug 23 2020 when Sox won 6-5 over the Royals, to go to a (20-12) record and here are the key players and their YTD numbers after those 32 games: Box Score with YTD numbers after 32 games compared to their numbers YTD after 32 games this year: 2020 2021 Anderson .337/.378/.620 .296/.324/.449 Jimenez .322/.352/.652 OUT Grandal 241/.356/.422 .113/.378/.242 Abreu .318/.362/.667 .220/.317/.415 Moncada .261/.338/.443 .261/.362/.387 Robert .284/.331/.569 OUT until 2 weeks ago 316/.359/.465 1. Anderson was crushing it last year and at the time was leading the league in BA 2. Eloy was having huge year and your point of him on the DL is inaccurate. We were talking about 32 games and not the end of the season with Eloy. 3. Moncada relatively same numbers so your point he was recovering from Covid is not a valid point because he was hitting about the same. 4. Abreu numbers were obviously MVP like compared to this year. He was leading the league in RBI's. 5. Robert was having a great year and very similar to this year before being out two weeks ago. So your point that Robert missed time was not correct based at 32 games. 6. Grandal, even though he was having an off year to his previous lifetime averages, was having a much better season than this year. My only point you obviously didn't get, was several key core players were having a significantly better year in 2020 than this year through 32 games. Thus it's totally possible for Renteria to have a better record with so called lessor talent after 32 games last year. I was not saying the Sox team last year had more talent than this year. Of course this year's team is far superior on paper. I was simply saying the better record after 32 games was simply because of players last year performing at a higher level than this year. Your point attacking me that I haven't been paying attention couldn't be more false. Why do you blame players if they are bad, but give Tony the credit if they are good? I don't like Tony, but I always figured he would run a game better than Renteria. So far, I don't see it. When Jerry Manuel used to make new line ups all the time, he was ripped as the "tinkerer" on this board. Tony always has a different line up. And IMO, he's been caught with his pants down too much so far. His top guys pitching in blowouts, and his lesser pitchers blowing up in close games. Maybe it will get better. Edited May 11, 2021 by Dick Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, ThirdGen said: April 29. Sox vs Tigers 7 inning game Rodon looks borderline unhittable, but Tigers take a 1-0 lead into the bottom of the fifth. Mize gives up a single to Jake Lamb (who, by the way, sucks at hitting) Mize then walks two consecutive hitters on only nine pitches to load the bases with no one out. Everyone in the park can see Mize has lost it. And with Rodon on fire, you have to stop this rally now. The manager, one A.J. Hinch (patron saint of all that is good in managing) chooses to leave Mize in. Billy Hamilton and Leury Garcia follow up by driving in three runs, effectively ending the game based on how Rodon is pitching. What a moron that A.J. Hinch must be, not recognizing that Mize had lost it so bad that the Tigers got beat by Lamb, Hamilton and Garcia. See how easy that is? Both have World Series rings, so I can't really question them? Yes, Hinch's team cheated, but so did Tony's first team. I think that means we have to give Hinch at least a decade to prove himself with another contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"The Kids Can Play" Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Why do you blame players if they are bad, but give Tony the credit if they are good? I don't like Tony, but I always figured he would run a game better than Renteria. So far, I don't see it. When Jerry Manuel used to make new line ups all the time, he was ripped as the "tinkerer" on this board. Tony always has a different line up. And IMO, he's been caught with his pants down too much so far. His top guys pitching in blowouts, and his lesser pitchers blowing up in close games. Maybe it will get better. Wow, you seriously need to read my posts better before making such incorrect statements. First of all, I am not blaming the players other than a few of the obvious ones. I have always blamed both Ricky last year and TLR this year. Secondly, go back and read my posts this season. Not once have I praised Tony. In fact, I am one of the most harsh critics of TLR on this forum. My only point I was making was the record last year through 32 games to 32 games this year was only better with so called lessor talent because some of the key core players were having much better seasons than this year. You clearly did not read my last full post nor did you understand it. The bottom line is Renteria sucked and deserved to be fired. However TLR should not have been the manager this year. They both suck! Edited May 11, 2021 by "The Kids Can Play" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"The Kids Can Play" Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 hour ago, ThirdGen said: What's maddening is when people talk about the games LaRussa supposedly lost for the Sox and they include the Giolito and Foster pitching decisions. Every freaking manager in the game will make the wrong decision on how long to leave in a starter, either pulling him too soon or not soon enough, and trusting the wrong reliever in certain situations multiple times in a season. Look at the criticism of Kevin Cash in the last World Series, or Joe Maddon in the Cubs/Indians World Series. Both probably made mistakes, just like LaRussa did, but nobody is calling them senile, too old to manage, drunk, out of touch with the game, sleeping on the bench, or whatever. I have come to the conclusion that there is a subset of Sox fandom that never watches anything other than Sox games, completely ignores even the opposing manager's decisions, and comes to conclusions in a complete vacuum of information related to the other 29 teams and the issues they sometimes face. What is your point? Do you know more than the rest of us and LaRussa is a good manager and we are all clueless and misinformed? We have an incredibly talented team here and a small window where we could win a few world series championships. The players and fans do not deserve TLR as the manager. For those of you who continue to rationalize and defend him is just nonsense. and strictly you enjoying being a contrarian. One simple question for you and all the other TLR defenders on this forum: If Jerry R wasn't the owner of the Sox, would TLR be the 2021 White Sox manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: If Abreu is MVP quality with Renteria managing and below average with Tony, and it's not Tony's fault, why is it all because of Tony if guys play better? It's almost if you hate Tony, he is responsible for all the bad and none of the good. If you like him, he is the reason for all of the good and none of the bad. I think if they had Lynn and this version of Rodon last season, Ricky would probably still be managing the team. Not that it's not good that he is gone. I don't buy Andrew Vaughn gained valuable knowledge riding pine. That's BS, and even those that are trying to spin it, know it. Well, this is basically another version of the Hahn vs. KW vs. JR debate. in the end, it makes for somewhat entertaining arguments...but never a firm conclusion. As a Sox fan, you don’t want to be embarrassed or feel like your team is getting attention for all the wrong reasons. So when you start throwing around all these words like respect and revere (with TLR), it’s also way too early to know that. Finally, I do find it interesting that VAFAN is now drawing fire for his blind optimism and “leave it up to the professionals” arguments. Other than nuclear or rocket physics, plumbing and complicated electrical work, what American thinks they’re not allowed to be Monday morning quarterback/s? Just go to any Little League or youth sports competition. It’s almost an American tradition. We can second guess every teacher (see home schooling), but usually not brain or heart surgeons, dentists and lawyers. Well, nobody likes lawyers much, either. And I take part of that argument back...here in China, ALMOST any time a patient dies, the family and friends will gather in hospital lobbies to shout at the doctor and embarrass shame him/her until the hospital pays them money to go away. No lawsuits, just ceaseless wailing and protests even though most families are still lacking in post-secondary education...especially those from rural areas or the countryside. Doesn’t mean they don’t have their own opinions and beliefs about everything under the sun. Why would coaching or managing be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said: What is your point? Do you know more than the rest of us and LaRussa is a good manager and we are all clueless and misinformed? We have an incredibly talented team here and a small window where we could win a few world series championships. The players and fans do not deserve TLR as the manager. For those of you who continue to rationalize and defend him is just nonsense. and strictly you enjoying being a contrarian. One simple question for you and all the other TLR defenders on this forum: If Jerry R wasn't the owner of the Sox, would TLR be the 2021 White Sox manager? If we had a different owner (or Theo Epstein as GM) easily 3-5 World Series titles since 1959 or 1967 or whatever arbitrary date we want to go back to...or maybe TLR never becomes a big league manager for any other ownership group going back to 1979/80. Or, if Marco Paddy was allowed to spend freely and make all the final decisions on which players to sign and eventually keep around...we’d already have been in the World Series last year. This game of what ifs and hypotheticals has no endings, just going around in circles. Interesting to some, ceaselessly frustrating to others. At the end of last season, would anyone have believed that Rick Renteria would have a 50%+ positive or approval rating? Somehow, that has taken place. Almost inconceivable to manage that feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Its not just "paper" that the roster is better, performance has improved. Despite the dropoffs you point out, the performance of Yermin (1.005), Vaughn (.712) and others offset Abreu's decline and Eloy's complete absence. The White Sox have scored exactly one less run year over year (165 2020 vs. 164). The improvement is the pitching staff allowing 10% less runs, against better quality opponents (not just the weaker Central division teams) with a decrease in runs allowed from 123 to 111, year over year. This will be even more pronounced in the playoffs assuming everyone is healthy. Keuchel was a weak #2 last year with literally no #3. Ethan Katz' staff vs. Don Cooper's staff, not the year over year changes in the subset of hitters you pointed out, is the primary difference between the 2021 and 2020 teams through 32 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 38 minutes ago, "The Kids Can Play" said: Wow, you seriously need to read my posts better before making such incorrect statements. First of all, I am not blaming the players other than a few of the obvious ones. I have always blamed both Ricky last year and TLR this year. Secondly, go back and read my posts this season. Not once have I praised Tony. In fact, I am one of the most harsh critics of TLR on this forum. My only point I was making was the record last year through 32 games to 32 games this year was only better with so called lessor talent because some of the key core players were having much better seasons than this year. You clearly did not read my last full post nor did you understand it. The bottom line is Renteria sucked and deserved to be fired. However TLR should not have been the manager this year. They both suck! Need about 5000 posts to take on a reputation around here...jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"The Kids Can Play" Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Its not just "paper" that the roster is better, performance has improved. Despite the dropoffs you point out, the performance of Yermin (1.005), Vaughn (.712) and others offset Abreu's decline and Eloy's complete absence. The White Sox have scored exactly one less run year over year (165 2020 vs. 164). The improvement is the pitching staff allowing 10% less runs, against better quality opponents (not just the weaker Central division teams) with a decrease in runs allowed from 123 to 111, year over year. This will be even more pronounced in the playoffs assuming everyone is healthy. Keuchel was a weak #2 last year with literally no #3. Ethan Katz' staff vs. Don Cooper's staff, not the year over year changes in the subset of hitters you pointed out, is the primary difference between the 2021 and 2020 teams through 32 games. I know we have a better team this year. That was not my point. You were making this huge point that Ricky had a better record after 32 games with less talent. All I am saying is that kind of statement takes on many other factors. Ricky pulled that off even with a worse starting staff because through 32 games the team was out hitting their opponents and you can see by the numbers through 32 games. You also fail to recognize the bullpen last year was lights out and made up for a weaker rotation during those first 32 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"The Kids Can Play" Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: If we had a different owner (or Theo Epstein as GM) easily 3-5 World Series titles since 1959 or 1967 or whatever arbitrary date we want to go back to...or maybe TLR never becomes a big league manager for any other ownership group going back to 1979/80. Or, if Marco Paddy was allowed to spend freely and make all the final decisions on which players to sign and eventually keep around...we’d already have been in the World Series last year. This game of what ifs and hypotheticals has no endings, just going around in circles. Interesting to some, ceaselessly frustrating to others. At the end of last season, would anyone have believed that Rick Renteria would have a 50%+ positive or approval rating? Somehow, that has taken place. Almost inconceivable to manage that feat. Oh so I guess you think Theo is a better GM than Rick Hahn? Theo didn't win a World Series until year 5 of their rebuild. This is year 5 so wait until the season is over. Btw, this is the second time you seem to idolize Theo and imply how weak Hahn is. I'm curious wasn't it Hahn who fleeced Theo and traded Quintana for Eloy and Cease. Hmm, how did that brilliant trade go for the Cubs? Maybe Hahn isn't so bad after all! Edited May 11, 2021 by "The Kids Can Play" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 minute ago, "The Kids Can Play" said: I know we have a better team this year. That was not my point. You were making this huge point that Ricky had a better record after 32 games with less talent. All I am saying is that kind of statement takes on many other factors. Ricky pulled that off even with a worse starting staff because through 32 games the team was out hitting their opponents and you can see by the numbers through 32 games. You also fail to recognize the bullpen last year was lights out and made up for a weaker rotation during those first 32 games. Neither point is true. A single run scored over 32 games is inconsequential. I used total pitching runs allowed, didn't cherry pick a subset of pitchers, which recognizes the entire staff. The starters are clearly better than the 10% runs overall runs allowed reduction. The 2021 bullpen digression, despite the fact they coughed up $18M for Tony's animal shelter pal, is included in what I did in fact recognize by comparing total runs allowed across the entire staff. The bottom line is the overall players, even with Robert and Eloy out and Abreu and Grandal being markedly worse, are overall better year over year, both "on paper" and on the field, through 32 games. And the whole point of paying two managers this season was Tony's Charlie Weiss like "schematic advantage" over Ricky Renteria, Soxtalk's consensus "worst manager in the history of baseball". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said: Neither point is true. A single run scored over 32 games is inconsequential. I used total pitching runs allowed, didn't cherry pick a subset of pitchers, which recognizes the entire staff. The starters are clearly better than the 10% runs overall runs allowed reduction. The 2021 bullpen digression, despite the fact they coughed up $18M for Tony's animal shelter pal, is included in what I did in fact recognize by comparing total runs allowed across the entire staff. The bottom line is the overall players, even with Robert and Eloy out and Abreu and Grandal being markedly worse, are overall better year over year, both "on paper" and on the field, through 32 games. And the whole point of paying two managers this season was Tony's Charlie Weiss like "schematic advantage" over Ricky Renteria, Soxtalk's consensus "worst manager in the history of baseball". Can I interrupt your Tony crusade for a minute and ask you to start your game thread so we can all talk about something less stressful 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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