The TLR Manager Thread

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, Green Line said:

My point was that I don't work for the MLB so I'm not concerned if the unwritten rules look "cool" or not to the next generation.  Baseball might go the way of Blockbuster for all I know, hell.  I don't think that bat flips and 3-0 home runs are going to be the thing that saves it in that case.  If you do, good luck with that.

Mate, I'm gonna try and make this simple.

1) Players have fun performing during the game.

2) People adhering to some vague, unwritten rules complain about them.

3) They throw baseballs at these players for breaking rules that aren't written down.

4) The message is clear: Don't break unwritten rules or you risk injury. Stop having fun.

That turns people off from the game. It doesn't have to be elaborate bat flips or 3-0 counts, what turns people off is the message that fun is bad. That performing is bad.

It'd be like if a player got speared for doing a touchdown dance or if someone reacting to their dunk was fouled hard on the next play. The Fun Police ruin the sport way more than the talent athletes excelling at it.

[RagahRagah]

14 minutes ago, Green Line said:

Nobody thinks that its the 90s anymore.. I'm certainly not stuck in a time warp.  Baseball changes like all things do.  Sportsmanship doesn't change all that much though.  And if you ignore a sign from your coach, you might have to deal with a consequence or two.  These seem to be novel concepts to many though.  Maybe it reflects society as a whole.

No one is arguing that you could face consequences or what the consequences are, we grasp that. The point is that those consequences are bullshit, as is TLR's asinine and completely arbitrary idea of "sportsmanship."

Just because someone has authority doesn't make them right, FFS.

[Paulie4Pres]

9 minutes ago, Green Line said:

Nobody thinks that its the 90s anymore.. I'm certainly not stuck in a time warp.  Baseball changes like all things do.  Sportsmanship doesn't change all that much though.  And if you ignore a sign from your coach, you might have to deal with a consequence or two.  These seem to be novel concepts to many though.  Maybe it reflects society as a whole.

Sportsmanship certainly does change. Because sportsmanship is not a written set of rules. It is an arbitrary set of situational guidelines, entirely based on the perception of the players that are playing the game.... And that perception changes, as the players change.

I play a lot of beer league hockey. Some guys get pissed off when you are still going hard at the end of a blowout game. Other guys get pissed off when you DON'T go hard at the end of a blowout game. Or when you just look to run the clock out. It all depends who you're playing against, and the context of the game matters, even when the opponent is the same....

Players in the past took offense to guys flipping their bats or being flamboyant when they hit a home run, the same way people used to be offended and felt disrespected if you "cussed" around them.

[Paulie4Pres]

12 minutes ago, Green Line said:

I didnt say “Not Showing people up” so I dont know why that is in quotes.  Maybe you meant to respond to someone else.  But to the point, showing someone up has nothing to do with being a snowflake.  Its purely about respect my friend.

Change in baseball can be bad or good.  Im all for change when I think the change is for the better.  Do I think all the recent changes have been for the better?  NO.  Thats the end of the story.

The entire concept of not swinging at a 3-0 pitch in a game where you're up big, is about not showing up the other team. It's been mentioned several times. It's what almost every single poster in here that is backing La Russa, is referencing. These are professional athletes being paid to play a game. FOR ENTERTAINMENT. They SHOULD be showing each other up when they beat them. Because that is fuel for the animosity and rivalry. It adds emotion to the game. If you don't like it, stop me from doing things I can show you up with. Or come back and show me up right afterwards yourself.

Respect? lol The Twins showed a lot of respect for the Sox by putting a position player in to pitch, didn't they?

Respect is for afterwards. During the game? Fuck you. I'm here to compete as hard as I can, for the entirety of the game, and beat you. And I expect the same in return. We can shake hands and have a beer when we're done.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Paulie4Pres

[Green Line]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

Mate, I'm gonna try and make this simple.

1) Players have fun performing during the game.

2) People adhering to some vague, unwritten rules complain about them.

3) They throw baseballs at these players for breaking rules that aren't written down.

4) The message is clear: Don't break unwritten rules or you risk injury. Stop having fun.

That turns people off from the game. It doesn't have to be elaborate bat flips or 3-0 counts, what turns people off is the message that fun is bad. That performing is bad.

It'd be like if a player got speared for doing a touchdown dance or if someone reacting to their dunk was fouled hard on the next play. The Fun Police ruin the sport way more than the talent athletes excelling at it.

Now Im really not sure what you’re saying.  The players are sick of the unwritten rules and want to have fun, but also its the players enforcing said rules and throwing at players who break them?  Did Tony makes the Twins throw at Mercedes?  I dont think Yermin really cares much if he gets thrown at, tbh.  And that certainly does not turn people off from the game, far from it.  Actually, things like that actually draw more views and chatter for better or worse.  A benches clearing brawl would actually have the fans more interested than ever.

[Paulie4Pres]

Just now, Green Line said:

Now Im really not sure what you’re saying.  The players are sick of the unwritten rules and want to have fun, but also its the players enforcing said rules and throwing at players who break them?  Did Tony makes the Twins throw at Mercedes?  I dont think Yermin really cares much if he gets thrown at, tbh.  And that certainly does not turn people off from the game, far from it.  Actually, things like that actually draw more views and chatter for better or worse.  A benches clearing brawl would actually have the fans more interested than ever.

And now you're starting to see the point.

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Green Line said:

Now Im really not sure what you’re saying.  The players are sick of the unwritten rules and want to have fun, but also its the players enforcing said rules and throwing at players who break them?  Did Tony makes the Twins throw at Mercedes?  I dont think Yermin really cares much if he gets thrown at, tbh.  And that certainly does not turn people off from the game, far from it.  Actually, things like that actually draw more views and chatter for better or worse.  A benches clearing brawl would actually have the fans more interested than ever.

I think it complicates things that the Turtle himself, a Latin player, was pitching and appeared to be staring into the Sox dugout and the Twins broadcast noted it.  If a younger Latin guy is glaring at another youngish Latin guy, what's the media to make of that and the prevailing "old white guys enforce the unwritten rules" easy narrative?

[Green Line]

1 minute ago, Paulie4Pres said:

And now you're starting to see the point.

No... not your point.  Although Ill admit its getting confusing because the other dude is arguing that throwing at hitters is somehow turning people off of baseball.

We’ll just have to disagree my friend.

[greg775]

I still haven't seen anybody describe what the proper etiquette is. What was the outcome of Mercedes' at bat that would have satisfied the unwritten rulebook? Nobody has said if a basehit or HR on 3-and-1 count woulda been OK.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think it complicates things that the Turtle himself, a Latin player, was pitching and appeared to be staring into the Sox dugout and the Twins broadcast noted it.  If a younger Latin guy is glaring at another youngish Latin guy, what's the media to make of that and the prevailing "old white guys enforce the unwritten rules" easy narrative?

Like #metoo, but if the octogenarians of the U.S. Senate were setting and enforcing the rules, lol...well, it's an analogy.

[greg775]

Tony by the way should have convinced Abreu to sit out after that collision. Sounds like his ankle is screwed up. Hope he didn't rush back too soon and is now screwed cause of it.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I still haven't seen anybody describe what the proper etiquette is. What was the outcome of Mercedes' at bat that would have satisfied the unwritten rulebook? Nobody has said if a basehit or HR on 3-and-1 count woulda been OK.

Just shout at those youngsters in Lawrence, GET THE F---K OFF MY LAWN!!! with faux Clint Eastwood expression on your/one's face.

[caulfield12]

Just now, greg775 said:

Tony by the way should have convinced Abreu to sit out after that collision. Sounds like his ankle is screwed up. Hope he didn't rush back too soon and is now screwed cause of it.

The ankle is more related to sliding home to score the winning run on that wild pitch to end the game.

No connection to Hunter Dozier collision.

[Green Line]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I still haven't seen anybody describe what the proper etiquette is. What was the outcome of Mercedes' at bat that would have satisfied the unwritten rulebook? Nobody has said if a basehit or HR on 3-and-1 count woulda been OK.

Take on 3-0 and then hit a homer on 3-1, yeah.  And him hitting the homer on 3-0 isn’t even the problem here.  The problem is Tony not being able to get mad about it.  Yermin did something that you typically dont do, and he might have had to get thrown at to atone for it.   Im fine with that and we could move on.

[Paulie4Pres]

Just now, Green Line said:

No... not your point.  Although Ill admit its getting confusing because the other dude is arguing that throwing at hitters is somehow turning people off of baseball.

We’ll just have to disagree my friend.

The point is that people want emotional investment when they're watching sports. When Yermin goes yard swinging at garbage thrown up from a position player, in a blowout game, it's fun. And if it pisses the other team off? More fun. And if it pisses the other team off so much that they're willing to throw a ball at him the next game, and risk putting a guy on base in a two run game?? Now we're talking! This is the shit rivalries are built off of.

Sports are also WAY more fun to play when you have true animosity towards the guys on the other team.

I also didn't see much reaction from the Twins players after he hit the home run. So was the reaction from them truly being pissed about it, or was it just more nonsense  because of "unwritten rules"?

[Green Line]

Im so tired I have to go to sleep now ill read in the morning

[Paulie4Pres]

2 minutes ago, Green Line said:

Take on 3-0 and then hit a homer on 3-1, yeah.  And him hitting the homer on 3-0 isn’t even the problem here.  The problem is Tony not being able to get mad about it.  Yermin did something that you typically dont do, and he might have had to get thrown at to atone for it.   Im fine with that and we could move on.

So the unwritten rule is just nonsensical bullshit. Because there's absolutely no difference between 3-0 and 3-1 in the context of this game. TLR came out and said "he wishes he could have sent 3 pitchers up to bat". So what he really wanted was for his players to stop trying, and get themselves out. You play until the last out is recorded. Period.

[Nick_Schwam]

Remember when the NFL penalized players for celebrating TDs? They were called the No Fun League. Now look, whole teams celebrate TDs and enjoy the fact that they did WELL at their job. Something that they try to craft and succeed at every single day.

Times change and some things just need to be let go. 

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

LaRussa handled it all wrong.  All he had to do is approach Mercedes in the clubhouse and tell him "the next time you get a take sign you will take the pitch."  

If he felt he had to say something to the media he could have simply said that Yermin didn't see the take sign and simply reacted to seeing a meatball coming right over the plate.

After the Twins threw at Yermin the next day, he should have said while he understands why the Twins were upset at Yermin, throwing at one of his players for hitting a home run is an unacceptable overreaction and he's glad the umpires stepped in and did the right thing and hopefully this closes the matter.

Discipline your players in private if you feel it necessary but have their backs in public.  Tony did the opposite.

Tony gets off on ripping certain types of athletes who raise his ire. Likes making a big production out of it, telling anyone who will listen that his way is the right way.

Doesn’t matter if they play for him, or even play the sport of baseball. Kapernik, Tatis, Yermin. Ozzie Smith, Ron Gant. There will be new names to this list before all is said and done.

Just find it interesting he doesn’t pay attention to a game when it’s close, leaving pitchers like Foster and Lucas in to wilt and die, but when a game is a blowout, he’s suddenly interested.

5 hours ago, champagne030 said:

JFC, how obtuse are you?

 

[StrangeSox]

8 hours ago, VAfan said:

I discussed this point in my long post.  I take those comments as intending to defuse the situation so the Twins don't try to throw at any more of his players. 

Sounds like the twins players and manager are a danger to others and should be given long suspensions

[caulfield12]

Six problems with how Tony La Russa handled the Yermín Mercedes situation

The White Sox manager just can't stay out of his own way

 

By Matt Snyder

 

17 hrs ago7 min read

 

6. He ignored Mercedes' situation

There's this notion among some casual fans and those people who don't like baseball that every player is some pampered and greedy millionaire. It's a garbage line of thinking, but that's a discussion for a different day, other than to say it couldn't be further from the truth with Mercedes. 

Mercedes signed as an international free agent with the Nationals in 2011. His signing info is tough to find, but Baseball America has a top-30 list for that year and he's not on it (the lowest figure included is $570,000). After three seasons in the Dominican Summer League (Rookie Ball with low salaries), he was released. He then played independent ball in 2014 before signing a minor-league deal with the Orioles. By 2017, he finally made Double-A. The White Sox took him before 2018 in the minor-league portion of the Rule 5 Draft. He debuted last season with one at-bat, so it's safe to say he basically made nothing last season. 

This year, Mercedes is on the league minimum, which is $570,000. That's a big salary! In looking at his entire career from the beginning, he's not rich. 

This matters because of what was mentioned above about players getting paid based upon their stats. Mercedes is 28 years old and who knows how long he'll be a productive big-league player?

There's no way La Russa considered this before making his comments, but maybe he should. He's the manager. 

Speaking of which, where would La Russa's team be without Mercedes? They lost Eloy Jimenez just before the season started and Mercedes has gobbled up those at-bats to the tune of (heading into Wednesday's day game) .368/.417/.571, good for a 178 OPS+ and the major-league lead in batting average. The White Sox are in first place and, by WAR, Mercedes has been their second-most valuable player. 

The bottom line: Do better than this, La Russa. 
 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/six-problems-with-how-tony-la-russa-handled-the-yermin-mercedes-situation/

 

[Kyyle23]

Caulfield you don't need to set your font size to 48 to make sure people see your post

[caulfield12]

“I really didn’t have an issue with it,’’ Boone said Wednesday of Yermin Mercedes’ homer on a 3-0 pitch from Minnesota Twins position player Willians Astudillo late in a lopsided game on Monday.

“The other night, you’ve got a position player throwing lobs,’’ Boone said of Astudillo. “Do you want [Mercedes] to sit there and take?”

Boone added his stance might be different in a blowout if a pitcher were still on the mound, but “once a position player is in there, you can’t really fault anyone for anything.”

.....

That brought Boone back to what he called the “run rule,” where if a team led by 10 or more runs after the seventh inning, the game would end. He mentioned it in 2019 after using Mike Ford and Austin Romine to pitch in games that season.

If such a rule existed, Boone said, it might also eliminate some of the “unwritten rules” about swinging away at pitches or stealing a base in a blowout and risking angering the opposing team.

“If everyone’s fighting to get to that 10-run [lead] by the seventh inning … then you don’t have to worry and we’re just playing,’’ Boone said. “I’m not saying I’m for it. I’m saying it’s worth discussing.”

https://nypost.com/2021/05/19/aaron-boone-fine-with-tony-la-russas-player-breaking-unwritten-rule/

[Chicago White Sox]

8 hours ago, VAfan said:

Here's my take on the Yermin 3-0 HR. 

1. Tony LaRussa, who has managed more than 5,000 games, knew EXACTLY what would happen if Yermin teed off on a 3-0 pitch up 15-4 in the 9th inning. 

2. TLR KNEW, I'm sure because he'd seen it happen before many many times, that the Twins would be pissed, AND WOULD THROW THE BASEBALL AT YERMIN or another Sox player in retaliation because of Yermin's swing. 

3. TLR also KNEW that the risk of injury to his player from being thrown at, while not high, was INFINITELY more important than hitting a HR or a base hit in the 15-4 blowout and showing up the Twins. 

4. So, to PROTECT HIS PLAYER, and HIS TEAM, TLR gave the TAKE sign to Yermin on the 3-0 pitch.

5. This was ABSOLUTELY the correct call.  

6. TLR was thinking AHEAD at the repercussions of swinging 3-0. 

7. Yermin, meanwhile, was completely consumed into himself when he ignored the TAKE sign and swung away. He didn't know the likely repercussions, because he'd NEVER been in this situation in a major league game.  Tony LaRussa, on the other hand, had managed more than 5,000 such games. 

8. So when Yermin ignored the take sign and hit the HR, LaRussa said he would be disciplined, because he put his health and the team at risk. Whatever discipline it was did not keep Yermin out of the next two games, so it was not severe. But it was enough to get across the point that you need to respect the take sign. There was a logical reason behind it meant to protect his health and the team health. 

9. LaRussa's other comment about Yermin "playing his game" was also appropriate. Players have to play for the team. Tony isn't reigning them in for no reason. He said if he's swung away at 3-1, he would have been fine with it.  But LaRussa knew were the line was in the Twins eyes, and he was 100% correct about that when the Twins threw at Yermin the next game. 

10. Who started the dissension here?  Not TLR.  He put on a take sign that NO ONE would have known about if Yermin hadn't blown it off.

11. The controversy, and the risk, was started by Yermin Mercedes, who ignored the sign because he couldn't help himself, and who certainly wasn't thinking through the consequences. 

12. I'm not defending in any way the Twins getting pissed and throwing at Yermin.  But it was nearly 100% certain to happen once Yermin jacked the ball out of the park. And TLR knew it. 

13. So, I think TLR was the ONLY one thinking ahead, and the only one to put Yermin's health and the team ahead of a meaningless HR in the 9th inning of a 15-4 game. 

14. When I read that Yermin had hit the HR, I personally didn't have a problem with it. Now that I've read some articles about it and realized WHY TLR put on the take sign, I believe that TLR is right. 

15. This has NOTHING TO DO with Old School v. New School.  It has to do with TLR knowing, because he's managed 5,000+ baseball games, EXACTLY what was going to happen if Yermin jacked that 3-0 pitch.  He also KNEW that the game hadn't changed to the point where the Twins would just overlook this and not retaliate. Anyone thinking that WOULDN"T happen is just naive. 

16. Lastly, a lot is being made of TLR not having a problem with the Twins reaction.  I don't think he encouraged or condoned it.  I just think he knew that was going to happen, and when it did, it drove home the point of why he gave Yermin the take sign in the first place. 

17. There have been a LOT of guys injured over the years from being hit by a pitched ball.  There have been ZERO games outcomes changed by swinging at a 3-0 pitch with a 15-4 lead in the 9th inning. 

18. So, anyone criticizing TLR is effectively ignoring the risks of the former for something that might be fun, but has ZERO benefit to winning a baseball game, which is the point of playing them. 

I'm not apologizing for TLR here. I'm saying he was WAY more savvy about the situation than any of his critics have been. And certainly WAY more savvy than Yermin Mercedes, who appears to have only been thinking about himself. 

Good god this is just pathetic man

[Chicago White Sox]

8 hours ago, joesaiditstrue said:

dude shut up, take that nonsense the fuck out of here

Yermin "put his teammates at risk" by swinging 3-0 ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS

Lol right?  This idea that Tony was so worried about one of his players getting hurt as a result of Yermin swinging on 3-0 despite coming out and saying he was ok with the Twins throwing at one of his players is the most laughable take I have seen on this site.