Grandal Vs. McCann

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

6 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Grandal is arguably the worst free agent signing in the history of this franchise. I can’t believe people would take him over James McCann. 

[wegner]

6 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Grandal is arguably the worst free agent signing in the history of this franchise. I can’t believe people would take him over James McCann. 

Eh, I'd personally go with Jaime Navarro as the worst free agent signing.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, wegner said:

Eh, I'd personally go with Jaime Navarro as the worst free agent signing.

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jaime-navarro/1009465/stats?position=P

 

His 1997 season was a whole lot better than I remembered.  It was the three following years that we all remember, with ERA's of 6.03, 6.11 and 7.84 (traded in that memorable 2000 year).

 

[wegner]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jaime-navarro/1009465/stats?position=P

 

His 1997 season was a whole lot better than I remembered.  It was the three following years that we all remember, with ERA's of 6.03, 6.11 and 7.84 (traded in that memorable 2000 year).

 

Do you think Caulfield that the Navarro contract has had a long reaching effect at all on Reinsdorf being willing to shell out for free agent starting pitchers?

Edited April 29, 2021 by wegner

[Pants Rowland]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/jaime-navarro/1009465/stats?position=P

 

His 1997 season was a whole lot better than I remembered.  It was the three following years that we all remember, with ERA's of 6.03, 6.11 and 7.84 (traded in that memorable 2000 year).

 

The best part was when he blamed his teammates for his bad performances.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, wegner said:

Do you think Caulfield that the Navarro contract has had a long reaching effect at all on Reinsdorf being willing to shell out for free agent starting pitchers?

I think it's more about Danks still, TBH.   And the "reward" contract they gave Jose Contreras after the World Series.

With Danks, he hung on and kept pitching ineffectively so they couldn't collect the insurance payouts on his deal, which would have got them 40-60% of those contract dollars.

You can also look at Floyd's ending with the White Sox.  Or Buehrle being pushed out because they didn't want to meet his asking price (of course, they did keep Konerko around for his farewell tour).

Of course, you can look at the eventual fates of Chris Sale and Jose Quintana for further examples (or the eventual outcomes of any of the storied 2005/06 rotation as well, including McCarthy).

 

In the end, better to maximize the return EARLY than hold on too long, right?

Of course, we already have to start considering that with Giolito unlikely to sign an extension for what he believes he's worth...but his departure coming almost exactly in the middle of the contention window.

Edited April 29, 2021 by caulfield12

[wegner]

4 minutes ago, Pants Rowland said:

The best part was when he blamed his teammates for his bad performances.

Reminds me of what I heard someone say about the unlikability of Royce Clayton with his teammates....it was said that the Sox replaced a guy who would run through a wall for his teammates with Clayton, a guy who would ask who put the wall there in the first place.

But I can't remember who it was Clayton replaced.

[wegner]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

I think it's more about Danks still, TBH.   And the "reward" contract they gave Jose Contreras after the World Series.

With Danks, he hung on and kept pitching ineffectively so they couldn't collect the insurance payouts on his deal, which would have got them 40-60% of those contract dollars.

You can also look at Floyd's ending with the White Sox.  Or Buehrle being pushed out because they didn't want to meet his asking price (of course, they did keep Konerko around for his farewell tour).

Of course, you can look at the eventual fates of Chris Sale and Jose Quintana for further examples.

 

In the end, better to maximize the return EARLY than hold on too long, right?

Of course, we already have to start considering that with Giolito unlikely to sign an extension for what he believes he's worth...but his departure coming almost exactly in the middle of the contention window.

All good examples, thanks for the feedback.  I did think about Danks as a long term bad taste for Jerry as well.

 

[BigHurt3515]

Does Gio's performance with Grandal vs. McCann count in the arguement?

[Harold's Leg Lift]

2 hours ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Does Gio's performance with Grandal vs. McCann count in the arguement?

It does unless if you enjoy your head being buried in the sand. 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

3 hours ago, wegner said:

Eh, I'd personally go with Jaime Navarro as the worst free agent signing.

Grandal is worse given how much more they are paying him.

[Dominikk85]

Grandal has been hitting too many grounders at over 50%, but I'm not that worried about that, grandal has a career 43% GB rate and from 2018-2020 it was under 40% which is quite good actually. 

 

Probably just a little out of sync with his timing so that he is rolling over too much. 

That should get better when he finds his rhythm at the plate. 

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, wegner said:

Reminds me of what I heard someone say about the unlikability of Royce Clayton with his teammates....it was said that the Sox replaced a guy who would run through a wall for his teammates with Clayton, a guy who would ask who put the wall there in the first place.

But I can't remember who it was Clayton replaced.

Jose Valentin, who had a much higher range factor and got to many more balls.  With modern metrics, Clayton’s Gold Glove defense disappears.

Moved Valentin to the outfield, also played some third and second but mostly OF if remembering correctly.

[upsoxfan]

    It looks to me like McCann calls a better game. There are an awful lot of times this year when our pitchers hit the target yaz sets and they are hit really hard. He must not be doing his home work nor does he seem to be as good a team guy.  He bunted a couple games ago and was successful, maybe with men on base he should bunt more often rather than hit into a shift and then semi walk to first.  

Edited April 29, 2021 by upsoxfan

[ChiSox59]

I love the common narrative among Sox fans - rip the Sox for not spending enough money (fair compliant).  And then rip the Sox for actually spending what it takes to get one of the best catchers in the game that fills multiple needs for the ballclub.  "No - don't spend the money that way!"  Its comical.  I too want the Sox to suddenly become the Dodgers financially, but its not happening. 

[upsoxfan]

  I still think Williams trading the best shortstop in baseball for Shields should have gotten him fired. That has to be worse than signing Grandal who seems to show us every game why he doesn't want to be here. Two spring trainings in a row with very little effort and then a slow start to the season which is a natural progression.  His lack of effort tells all there is to tell. Quoting someone who said he was good doesn't make him good. When in a slump some max effort would help.

Edited April 29, 2021 by upsoxfan

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, upsoxfan said:

  I still think Williams trading the best shortstop in baseball for Shields should have gotten him fired. That has to be worse than signing Grandal who seems to show us every game why he doesn't want to be here. Two spring trainings in a row with very little effort and then a slow start to the season which is a natural progression. 

Hahn....took responsibility and said he was basically an idiot.

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, upsoxfan said:

  I still think Williams trading the best shortstop in baseball for Shields should have gotten him fired. That has to be worse than signing Grandal who seems to show us every game why he doesn't want to be here. Two spring trainings in a row with very little effort and then a slow start to the season which is a natural progression. 

Lol, effort isn't the problem with Grandal.  

And Williams didn't trade Tatis, Hahn did.  Tatis is a superstar and that remains a colossal mixture of fuckup and bad luck, but he's also not long for SS.  Not sure where he ends up longterm, but it isn't going to be SS or 3B.  He leads the league in errors and missed at least 10 games.    

[ShoeLessRob]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I love the common narrative among Sox fans - rip the Sox for not spending enough money (fair compliant).  And then rip the Sox for actually spending what it takes to get one of the best catchers in the game that fills multiple needs for the ballclub.  "No - don't spend the money that way!"  Its comical.  I too want the Sox to suddenly become the Dodgers financially, but its not happening. 

If he was living up to this narrative, no one would be complaining. He wasn’t signed for his previous accomplishments. He was average at best last year and has been horrendous so far this year 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Lol, effort isn't the problem with Grandal.  

And Williams didn't trade Tatis, Hahn did.  Tatis is a superstar and that remains a colossal mixture of fuckup and bad luck, but he's also not long for SS.  Not sure where he ends up longterm, but it isn't going to be SS or 3B.  He leads the league in errors and missed at least 10 games.    

Way premature, still.

What was his FG defensive rating last year?  Top 3-5 in the majors...plus he’s dealing with a harness on his left shoulder under his jersey.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, ShoeLessRob said:

If he was living up to this narrative, no one would be complaining. He wasn’t signed for his previous accomplishments. He was average at best last year and has been horrendous so far this year 

Except he wasn't average at best last year.  He was exactly who he has always been last year. 

He has been bad so far in 2021.  A lot of the stats point to a significant amount of bad luck, but he has been bad.  The defense has been much worse than I expected as a whole.  Definitely agree there. 

Good catchers don't grow on trees.  Yasmani, despite his faults, is one of the best.  The stats bear this out clear as day, whether you want to use them or ignore them. 

I do hope he figures it out and his luck starts to even out, because the 2021 version has been very bad.  But the sample remains very small.   

[ChiSox59]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Way premature, still.

What was his FG defensive rating last year?  Top 3-5 in the majors...plus he’s dealing with a harness on his left shoulder under his jersey.

Was he wearing a harness when he had all the errors pre-injury?  Tatis is really good.  Not saying he's not.  But I'd bet my bottom dollar he isn't a SS long term.  Heck, if he keeps playing like he is now, he may not be a SS in a few months.  

[ShoeLessRob]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Except he wasn't average at best last year.  He was exactly who he has always been last year. 

He has been bad so far in 2021.  A lot of the stats point to a significant amount of bad luck, but he has been bad.  The defense has been much worse than I expected as a whole.  Definitely agree there. 

Good catchers don't grow on trees.  Yasmani, despite his faults, is one of the best.  The stats bear this out clear as day, whether you want to use them or ignore them. 

I do hope he figures it out and his luck starts to even out, because the 2021 version has been very bad.  But the sample remains very small.   

I think we’ve had this discussion before if I’m not mistaken.
 

Offensively what he did last year I believe is what he is. It’s the defense that was greatly overrated. Between the errors, catcher interference, the lackadaisical plays (I remember when that relay home just went through his legs since he wasn’t looking/prepared), and pitch calling. I do not believe he is an above average defensive catcher despite what the metrics say about his framing.

 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I think we’ve had this discussion before if I’m not mistaken.
 

Offensively what he did last year I believe is what he is. It’s the defense that was greatly overrated. Between the errors, catcher interference, the lackadaisical plays (I remember when that relay home just went through his legs since he wasn’t looking/prepared), and pitch calling. I do not believe he is an above average defensive catcher despite what the metrics say about his framing.

 

Fair enough, I won't really argue that.  As I said a few mins ago, the defense has been very disappointing.  Offensively, I am not too concerned (and definitely not ready to declare him terrible like most of Soxtalk) but its been ugly the first few weeks.  No doubt about it.  

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Was he wearing a harness when he had all the errors pre-injury?  Tatis is really good.  Not saying he's not.  But I'd bet my bottom dollar he isn't a SS long term.  Heck, if he keeps playing like he is now, he may not be a SS in a few months.  

Ever since he came back and during spring training the first time he tweaked it.

If they do move him to CF for Pham (Abrams to SS), he will be just fine.  Probably will win a Gold Glove one year due to outfield assists.