Grandal Vs. McCann

[GermanSoxFan]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

How does Grandal's whiff rate compare to other high walk guys? Someone like Santana?

The compariosn to Santana is not really a fair one since Santana has never been a high K-guy. Bryce Harper whiffs more than Grandal to name  another high walk/high strikeout guy.

[Tony]

Here is my issue with Grandal at the moment. Yes, the OBP is great. But he also has 12 hits and it's May 24. 

With Eloy and Robert out........the Sox need run producers and Grandal was brought in to drive in runs. They didn't pay him just for his defense. 

I'm glad he's getting on base, getting on base leads to runs....but given the Sox current lineup, they need someone to drive those runners in, and right now Yaz isn't getting that done. 

[harkness99]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Abreu has a good handle on the strike zone.

The difference between the two is Jose takes it upon himself to carry the offense, and will swing if there is a chance to knock in an important run. Grandal most at bats is content with letting a pitch go by, and let the next guy try to knock him in.

Sadly, the next guy in 2021 is typically Leury Garcia, a prime reason why Grandal’s walk rate is well above his career norms. It won’t be sustainable once real ML hitters return to hit behind Grandal, and pitchers bother to pitch to him.

Grandal SO/BB

2018 124/72

2019 139/109

2020 58/30

2021 32/37

some of that is true for sure - but I really don't agree that Jose has a good handle on the strike zone.

He has great plate coverage and is good at fouling off some tough pitches at time.... but he swings at lots of bad pitches.

Jose is a smart hitter so he guesses right a lot - but he never has had a good eye.

[ShoeLessRob]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

Here is my issue with Grandal at the moment. Yes, the OBP is great. But he also has 12 hits and it's May 24. 

With Eloy and Robert out........the Sox need run producers and Grandal was brought in to drive in runs. They didn't pay him just for his defense. 

I'm glad he's getting on base, getting on base leads to runs....but given the Sox current lineup, they need someone to drive those runners in, and right now Yaz isn't getting that done. 

I sure as hell hope not! 

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

Here is my issue with Grandal at the moment. Yes, the OBP is great. But he also has 12 hits and it's May 24. 

With Eloy and Robert out........the Sox need run producers and Grandal was brought in to drive in runs. They didn't pay him just for his defense. 

I'm glad he's getting on base, getting on base leads to runs....but given the Sox current lineup, they need someone to drive those runners in, and right now Yaz isn't getting that done. 

That's the reason I'm not big on him hitting in the middle of the order. If we were at full strength, I wouldn't hit him higher than 7th.

[ChiSox59]

7 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

That's the reason I'm not big on him hitting in the middle of the order. If we were at full strength, I wouldn't hit him higher than 7th.

I would tend to agree - but we're not anywhere near full strength.  Based on the current roster construction, I think the 2 hole makes the most sense.  Or 3rd, and move Yoan back to 2nd. Which is probably what i would do, but i doubt they move Moncada around right.  Back half of the lineup then gets very, very right handed tho.  

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I would tend to agree - but we're not anywhere near full strength.  Based on the current roster construction, I think the 2 hole makes the most sense.  Or 3rd, and move Yoan back to 2nd. Which is probably what i would do, but i doubt they move Moncada around right.  Back half of the lineup then gets very, very right handed tho.  

Yeah, I've been on the 2-hole train for a while. Eaton has been bad, Grandal would see a lot of pitches for his teammates early and can draw a walk or two for the middle of the order.

Edit: Eaton can slide down to the bottom part to help with the right-handedness.

Edited May 24, 2021 by manbearpuig

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

Yeah, I've been on the 2-hole train for a while. Eaton has been bad, Grandal would see a lot of pitches for his teammates early and can draw a walk or two for the middle of the order.

Edit: Eaton can slide down to the bottom part to help with the right-handedness.

TA, Moncada, Grandal, Abreu, Yermin, Vaughn, Engel, Eaton/Leury, Madrigal is probably how I would line em' up once Engel is back.  Flip flop Moncada/Grandal if need be, but I feel like putting the slower guys together makes sense as opposed to Yoan following Yaz.  

[Tnetennba]

I hate putting someone that slow in the 2 hole, but maybe the heart of the order can drive those walks in.  It's not like we are getting great production there to begin with.  

[CentralChamps21]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

I hate putting someone that slow in the 2 hole, but maybe the heart of the order can drive those walks in.  It's not like we are getting great production there to begin with.  

A slow guy on base with Moncada up >>>>> nobody on base with Moncada up

[Greydawgfan1]

For all the McCann lovers the Mets are looking to move him to first base lmfao

[MiddleCoastBias]

Eat your heart out, Grandal stans.

 

[fathom]

2 hours ago, Greydawgfan1 said:

For all the McCann lovers the Mets are looking to move him to first base lmfao

This is a little misleading though, as Mets have such a ridiculous number of injuries that they just need healthy bodies on the field

[Vulture]

18 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

A slow guy on base with Moncada up >>>>> nobody on base with Moncada up

You think Moncada would actually lap Grandal on balls in play? It’s not like he’s stealing a ton of bases. It’s not ideal but might as well maximize Grandal’s one offensive attribute, when he’s obviously not the guy to drive in many runs and you don’t have a better option. Rather have a slow runner on base than none at all. 

[Vulture]

20 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

TA, Moncada, Grandal, Abreu, Yermin, Vaughn, Engel, Eaton/Leury, Madrigal is probably how I would line em' up once Engel is back.  Flip flop Moncada/Grandal if need be, but I feel like putting the slower guys together makes sense as opposed to Yoan following Yaz.  

Batting Grandal third would be insane. Having a batter with less than 10% of his plate appearances resulting in a hit in a prime run production spot

Edited May 25, 2021 by Vulture

[Flash]

Its getting really hard to watch Grandal at the plate. He is literally looking for a walk every at bat. Takes obvious strikes then complains to the ump almost every pitch. Literally every at bat. Wonder if he's in his own head a bit or maybe still not back 100% physically but its painful to watch. In spite of McCanns slow start in NY, at this point I prefer him to Grandal.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Flash said:

Its getting really hard to watch Grandal at the plate. He is literally looking for a walk every at bat. Takes obvious strikes then complains to the ump almost every pitch. Literally every at bat. Wonder if he's in his own head a bit or maybe still not back 100% physically but its painful to watch. In spite of McCanns slow start in NY, at this point I prefer him to Grandal.

I feel bad for Grandal in this situation because the manager isn't backing up the pitchers at all when there is a bad strike zone, so it seems to come out more when Yaz is hitting than catching.  I think he gets pissed that the strikes he gets while batting, are not the same as when he is catching.

[wegner]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I feel bad for Grandal in this situation because the manager isn't backing up the pitchers at all when there is a bad strike zone, so it seems to come out more when Yaz is hitting than catching.  I think he gets pissed that the strikes he gets while batting, are not the same as when he is catching.

The passivity in this regard from the bench is getting more and more annoying.

[Dominikk85]

22 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

How does Grandal's whiff rate compare to other high walk guys? Someone like Santana?

Grandals swinging strike rate is excellent at below 8% (league average is 11).

However his called strikes+swinging strikes percentage is 33% which is very high (league average 28% and everything over 30% is a red flag). 

CSW% is highly correlated with K rate so grandal is simply too passive (25% called strikes vs league average of around 16%). That leads to him falling behind too much. 

Obviously his sw strike rate is artificially lowered by only swinging middle middle, ie he would miss a little more if he covered more of the plate and part of his skill is being selective within the zone because he does have holes in his swing however 38% zone swing rate is just absurdly low (lg average is like 66 or so). 

Partience is always going a huge part of his game and he never was a guy like prime miggy Cabrera who could  could cover all 4 edges of the zone but this year he just is too passive. 

OBP is Stil good and that is fine but his slugging percentage and average are very bad. 

He should be patient but that is just too passive. 

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

Grandals swinging strike rate is excellent at below 8% (league average is 11).

However his called strikes+swinging strikes percentage is 33% which is very high (league average 28% and everything over 30% is a red flag). 

CSW% is highly correlated with K rate so grandal is simply too passive (25% called strikes vs league average of around 16%). That leads to him falling behind too much. 

Obviously his sw strike rate is artificially lowered by only swinging middle middle, ie he would miss a little more if he covered more of the plate and part of his skill is being selective within the zone because he does have holes in his swing however 38% zone swing rate is just absurdly low (lg average is like 66 or so). 

Partience is always going a huge part of his game and he never was a guy like prime miggy Cabrera who could  could cover all 4 edges of the zone but this year he just is too passive. 

OBP is Stil good and that is fine but his slugging percentage and average are very bad. 

He should be patient but that is just too passive. 

So to make sure I understand this right, this means he is taking a TON of called strikes?

[Dominikk85]

34 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So to make sure I understand this right, this means he is taking a TON of called strikes?

Yes. Called strike rate is 25% of all pitches vs 16% League average. Since that is on a per pitch base the difference is even more dramatic than it sounds. 

Called strikes plus swinging strikes is a new Stat that currently is big in the fantasy analytics community for pitchers. 

 

Generally it means low swinging strike guys (like grandal) can take more called strikes but there is a limit to that. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Vulture said:

Batting Grandal third would be insane. Having a batter with less than 10% of his plate appearances resulting in a hit in a prime run production spot

No more insane that batting Eaton 2nd.  Grandal has a ,391 OBP, 116 OPS+, 126 wRC+.  Pretty much any metric you use, he's been well above average.  Its sort of tough to watch visually and certainly understand the frustartion, but getting him on base in front of the guys that can actually drive him in makes a ton more sense than getting on base for the bottom third of this lineup that isn't very good as currently constructed.  

[South Side Hit Men]

I’m on record as not being a fan of the large contract given to Grandal, and while his walk stats are inflated regularly hitting ahead of a AA / AAA hitter (Leury), he’s doing the right thing not chasing garbage pitches. 

He’s far superior to Collins, and since La Russa has zero interest in playing Yermin behind the plate, he is the best regular option behind the plate in terms of hitting.

Collins works well handling Rodon’s pitches. If Lucas can successfully work with Grandal or Collins, that’s the only other Starter who may be theoretically better with an alternative to Grandal defensively.

Would like to see La Russa at least attempt to play Collins with a proper platoon split for non Rodon starts.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Stinky Stanky]

6 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Grandals swinging strike rate is excellent at below 8% (league average is 11).

However his called strikes+swinging strikes percentage is 33% which is very high (league average 28% and everything over 30% is a red flag). 

CSW% is highly correlated with K rate so grandal is simply too passive (25% called strikes vs league average of around 16%). That leads to him falling behind too much. 

Obviously his sw strike rate is artificially lowered by only swinging middle middle, ie he would miss a little more if he covered more of the plate and part of his skill is being selective within the zone because he does have holes in his swing however 38% zone swing rate is just absurdly low (lg average is like 66 or so). 

Partience is always going a huge part of his game and he never was a guy like prime miggy Cabrera who could  could cover all 4 edges of the zone but this year he just is too passive. 

OBP is Stil good and that is fine but his slugging percentage and average are very bad. 

He should be patient but that is just too passive. 

OBP never looked this invalid before.  The advantage of having him bat second is if TA is on  base, the 2B can't shift to short right field.  The disadvantage is DP's galore.  This is not what the Sox paid for.  And they paid big.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

OBP never looked this invalid before.  The advantage of having him bat second is if TA is on  base, the 2B can't shift to short right field.  The disadvantage is DP's galore.  This is not what the Sox paid for.  And they paid big.

Well, on the Sox scale.  Definitely not for the so-called top 10-12 organizations in baseball, historically.

Even the Cardinals are showing no fear adding guys like Goldschmidt and Arenado.