The Say Sorry to Rick Hahn Thread

[fathom]

22 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I know it is easy to talk about trades, but Hahn needs to do something with Robert now injured. Luery Garcia and Jake Lamb are not going to do anything for you. Billy Hamilton should never get a meaningful plate appearance again. Something needs to be or the losses are going to mount.

It’s so true...if this is supposed to be a contending team, you have to sacrifice some prospects if you suffer major injuries

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

It’s so true...if this is supposed to be a contending team, you have to sacrifice some prospects if you suffer major injuries

So it pretty much has to be one of those three young drafted starters or Vera.

Who else has much value to another team?

Crochet?   He’s taken a hit this year, so the return wouldn’t match his potential. 

[NWINFan]

Do we have to say sorry to Rick Hahn if this turns out to be another "developmental" year?

[Snopek]

Sorry we doubted the depth, Rick.

[Dominikk85]

Hahn definitely did a great job in the rebuild. Drafting was OK but not great but the Cuban signings and especially the selling deals were great. 

His free agent deal record is a bit mixed though and I feel he was not agressive enough in "buy" trades considering how good the buying market is due to high prospect valuation. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like that he kept the top prospects but I feel he let some of the second tier guys just rot in the minors until they had no value anymore while teams like the As and Rays sell well too but they also aggressively ship away their older non elite prospects before they get rule 5ed.

I wonder if Hahn is a bit gunshy in dealing prospects due to the tatis deal and thus hoarding prospects a little sometimes until they lose all value (sheets and Rutherford for example). 

Hope he gets a bit more aggressive with dealing non top prospects (especially those 22-23yo and older) , Milb depth is nice but at some point prospects lose their value. 

[Tony]

3 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Do we have to say sorry to Rick Hahn if this turns out to be another "developmental" year?

I know you're joking, but just because you brought it up.......they simply can't get away with that this year. No "We were a year early to the party" or "Next year is the real start of this." Yes, injuries happen, but they happen to every team. Go back and listen to the interviews given during Spring Training. The expectations were not just the playoffs, but playoff series wins. Anything else is a failure. 

If it doesn't happen this season, shave one year off the "window" because it's wide open right now. They better capitalize on it. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

I know you're joking, but just because you brought it up.......they simply can't get away with that this year. No "We were a year early to the party" or "Next year is the real start of this." Yes, injuries happen, but they happen to every team. Go back and listen to the interviews given during Spring Training. The expectations were not just the playoffs, but playoff series wins. Anything else is a failure. 

If it doesn't happen this season, shave one year off the "window" because it's wide open right now. They better capitalize on it. 

The Twins are practically begging rivals to take off and run away...but we’re only 4 1/2 up on them, which can change in a single series or week when you’re playing your direct competitors head to head.

Everyone now knows the White Sox injuries will provide all four teams a shot at this division...wide open now.  May the best GM and most generous owner win.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

22 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Every metric has this team as one of baseball's best.  Sure things can go wrong, but about 1/6 of the way this club looks pretty loaded.  Even the fringe guys are doing enough, often enough to help the club win.

At this point, and once again -- it's early, the greatest worry perhaps to have is that a richer club decides to give Hahn the keys this offseason.

NOTE FROM THE PAST:

As I have no doubt this thread will be revived at some point near the end of the baseball season as a part of the time-honored internet tradition of roasting people in hindsight, let the record show that this original post was made on May 1st and refers to a roster that (1) gives regular (and often starting) playing time to all of Leury Garcia, Billy Hamilton, and Jake Lamb, (2) resorted to converting its top prospect, who hadn't played above Single-A, UP the defensive spectrum in order to avoid having to start Nick Williams every single day, (3) has already had to resort to a bullpen day despite the benefit of multiple postponements and suffering only one minor injury to its rotation, and (4) ranks 15th in payroll amidst all of the aforementioned depth-related problems. Thus, while doing your roasting, please keep the context in mind.

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, Snopek said:

Sorry we doubted the depth, Rick.

Correct. TLR said that we have the depth to withstand the loss of Robert for the time being. We good. 

[GreenSox]

I'll say sorry to him iff:

1)Sox win the WS.

Or

2) If the Sox don't win the division this year, I'll say "Sorry Rick, but 10 years is beyond enough time.  It's time to hit the bricks."

Edited May 3, 2021 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

NOTE FROM THE PAST:

As I have no doubt this thread will be revived at some point near the end of the baseball season as a part of the time-honored internet tradition of roasting people in hindsight, let the record show that this original post was made on May 1st and refers to a roster that (1) gives regular (and often starting) playing time to all of Leury Garcia, Billy Hamilton, and Jake Lamb, (2) resorted to converting its top prospect, who hadn't played above Single-A, UP the defensive spectrum in order to avoid having to start Nick Williams every single day, (3) has already had to resort to a bullpen day despite the benefit of multiple postponements and suffering only one minor injury to its rotation, and (4) ranks 15th in payroll amidst all of the aforementioned depth-related problems. Thus, while doing your roasting, please keep the context in mind.

Why are we so proud of having a mid-tier payroll when we were promised “unprecedented financial flexibility?”

Do the Indians, A’s and Rays get more credits for winning “cost efficiently” from their fans, and those traditional top payroll teams less?

We also 100% knew about the obstacles Vaughn faced from the beginning of last off season...they simply could have added Nelson Cruz for just one season had they chosen to do so.

Edited May 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

NOTE FROM THE PAST:

As I have no doubt this thread will be revived at some point near the end of the baseball season as a part of the time-honored internet tradition of roasting people in hindsight, let the record show that this original post was made on May 1st and refers to a roster that (1) gives regular (and often starting) playing time to all of Leury Garcia, Billy Hamilton, and Jake Lamb, (2) resorted to converting its top prospect, who hadn't played above Single-A, UP the defensive spectrum in order to avoid having to start Nick Williams every single day, (3) has already had to resort to a bullpen day despite the benefit of multiple postponements and suffering only one minor injury to its rotation, and (4) ranks 15th in payroll amidst all of the aforementioned depth-related problems. Thus, while doing your roasting, please keep the context in mind.

Was this context ever applied to Rick Renteria? The manager who literally had:

• One decent starting pitcher at his disposal in Oakland.
• Mazara and Parrot instead of Vaughn, Yermin and Eaton.
• Hand-me-down Don Cooper coasting on 2005 efforts as Kenny’s snitch vs. Ethan Katz.
• Renaldo Lopez and duct tape vs. Lynn and Hendriks.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Was this context ever applied to Rick Renteria? The manager who literally had:

• One decent starting pitcher at his disposal in Oakland.
• Mazara and Parrot instead of Vaughn, Yermin and Eaton.
• Hand-me-down Don Cooper coasting on 2005 efforts as Kenny’s snitch vs. Ethan Katz.
• Renaldo Lopez and duct tape vs. Lynn and Hendriks.

I think you mean Colome, Giolito and duct tape vs. Lynn/Rodon/Kopech and the best bullpen ever assembled in the history of the game.

[Eminor3rd]

24 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Why are we so proud of having a mid-tier payroll when we were promised “unprecedented financial flexibility?”

Do the Indians, A’s and Rays get more credits for winning “cost efficiently” from their fans, and those traditional top payroll teams less?

We also 100% knew about the obstacles Vaughn faced from the beginning of last off season...they simply could have added Nelson Cruz for just one season had they chosen to do so.

Wait, do you think my post was made in defense of the front office?

[Eminor3rd]

21 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Was this context ever applied to Rick Renteria? The manager who literally had:

• One decent starting pitcher at his disposal in Oakland.
• Mazara and Parrot instead of Vaughn, Yermin and Eaton.
• Hand-me-down Don Cooper coasting on 2005 efforts as Kenny’s snitch vs. Ethan Katz.
• Renaldo Lopez and duct tape vs. Lynn and Hendriks.

I'm not sure what we're talking about.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Wait, do you think my post was made in defense of the front office?

Hard to tell, we keep shifting on a dime around here recently...depending on the daily results.

[ron883]

2 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

NOTE FROM THE PAST:

As I have no doubt this thread will be revived at some point near the end of the baseball season as a part of the time-honored internet tradition of roasting people in hindsight, let the record show that this original post was made on May 1st and refers to a roster that (1) gives regular (and often starting) playing time to all of Leury Garcia, Billy Hamilton, and Jake Lamb, (2) resorted to converting its top prospect, who hadn't played above Single-A, UP the defensive spectrum in order to avoid having to start Nick Williams every single day, (3) has already had to resort to a bullpen day despite the benefit of multiple postponements and suffering only one minor injury to its rotation, and (4) ranks 15th in payroll amidst all of the aforementioned depth-related problems. Thus, while doing your roasting, please keep the context in mind.

There's nothing I like more than bumping up an old thread to roast people in hindsight... I'll keep this thread on my radar for sure. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, ron883 said:

There's nothing I like more than bumping up an old thread to roast people in hindsight... I'll keep this thread on my radar for sure. 

Do we really have to bump the Eaton thread up now...or his decline a result of an injury?  Or does injury align with conventional wisdom he couldn’t consistently stay in the lineup all season long?

[ron883]

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Do we really have to bump the Eaton thread up now...or his decline a result of an injury?  Or does injury align with conventional wisdom he couldn’t consistently stay in the lineup all season long?

Weren't most people upset or at least indifferent regarding the Eaton signing? He's been pretty underwhelming so far. Don't think there would be much crow to be eaten there. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by ron883

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Do we really have to bump the Eaton thread up now...or his decline a result of an injury?  Or does injury align with conventional wisdom he couldn’t consistently stay in the lineup all season long?

Well Eaton has already put up better numbers in 1 month than I gave him credit for doing in all of 2021 ?

[caulfield12]

https://www.southsidesox.com/2021/2/26/22303207/white-sox-gm-rick-hahn-steps-in-it-again

In an hour-long chat (one winces to imagine what was left on the cutting-room floor), Hahn essentially pulled a Reggie’s, defensively calling out White Sox fans (and their Twitter “hot takes”) for criticizing the terrible offseason the team has had. Hahn spoke specifically of attacks on the team’s (lack of) spending, listing several extremely inappropriate, and frankly tedious, future memes the GM will one day regret:

The Tampa example (the Rays being two wins from a title as the tiniest of small-market teams means exactly ... what to the White Sox, who are richer, bigger-market — and more terrible at scouting, signing and trading — than Tampa?)

“We’ve made a number of high-dollar commitments” (true, on the scale of, yes, the White Sox spent more than I did ... and you, too) 

If the White Sox had signed, say, Manny Machado, the money might not have been there to extend Luis Robert or Eloy Jiménez. (Seriously? The premise of this teardown on the cheap was locking up All-Star talent for pennies on the dollar, but, OK.)

Yasmani Grandal — YASMANI GRANDAL, and his team record-setting four-year, $73 million deal, is cited as more proof of spending. The CHICAGO White Sox have never laid out more than $73 million in a single deal, and it’s being cited as reasons for critics to shut up. (You may recall our coverage of the Grandal signing was otherworldly-positive ... now just another thing Rick crapped on with this Athletic sitdown.)

and, OF COURSE, the pandemic

What really bothers me as a fan, and as writer, is Hahn’s assertion that “criticisms not based in reality bother me.” This is gaslighting, pure and simple.

.....

Not even two years ago, during that odd circle-jerk with the NBC head-bobbers that was his “Reggie’s debacle,” Hahn inferred that a certain (presumably large) segment of White Sox fans wanted the rebuild to fail.

[caulfield12]

Note that the Rays also have basically zero margin for error.

Primary player (or two) goes down? Done.
Manager makes a bad move to the bullpen in the playoffs? Done.
Bad free agent signing? Done.

The White Sox want to operate with the same margin for error with no demonstrated capacity for avoiding said errors.

Posted  by Trooper Galactus  on Feb 26, 2021 | 3:46 PM

 

 

Now the only counter-argument here is that the White Sox have a much larger margin for error because the Twins are spending even less (and likely losing Buxton and Berrios), the Indians now have the lowest payroll in baseball and will have to trade Jose Ramirez and Bieber, logically...the Tigers are the worst team in baseball and that just leaves the small-market Royals and Twins to fight it out with (and the possibility of a Wild Card beating up on Detroit.)

Edited May 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Hard to tell, we keep shifting on a dime around here recently...depending on the daily results.

You can bet your bottom dollar that every time this team beats up on a shithole team like Detroit, there'll be a thread like this. Dylan Cease beats a AAAA opponent, with his first good start since last August? He's on track for the Cy Young Award! Leury Garcia has a 5 RBI day? He's a supersub!

It's the nature of this board to be irrationally exuberant. Sometimes that's refreshing, but in this case, it's exhausting. 

6 hours ago, ron883 said:

Weren't most people upset or at least indifferent regarding the Eaton signing? He's been pretty underwhelming so far. Don't think there would be much crow to be eaten there. 

As of this writing, a 99 wrc+ (with a babip of .261, so possibly some positive regression afoot). Also, a positive DRS. 3 HR in ~100 PA, so an 18 HR pace. 0.6 fWAR so far, so on a pretty fair pace thus far as well.

Nah, there are still some here who weep the loss of Nomar Mazara. They miss his negative fWAR, his (snicker, as of this writing) 89 wrc+, his negative DRS, and his current stint on the IL. He's young, amirite?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[NWINFan]

12 hours ago, Tony said:

I know you're joking, but just because you brought it up.......they simply can't get away with that this year. No "We were a year early to the party" or "Next year is the real start of this." Yes, injuries happen, but they happen to every team. Go back and listen to the interviews given during Spring Training. The expectations were not just the playoffs, but playoff series wins. Anything else is a failure. 

If it doesn't happen this season, shave one year off the "window" because it's wide open right now. They better capitalize on it. 

I agree that expectations were high. Last year was exciting even with the last week melt down and disappointment in the playoffs.  Regardless, fans were going to become more demanding as time went on. That's how rebuilds work. Fans are told to put up with losing for a three or four seasons with the promise of big success later. Now the team has had some injuries and other disappointments. You're right. If the club doesn't turn things around and at least get into the playoffs, the season will be considered a failure. I don't know if Hahn can do anything at this point. As I've said, trades are easier said than done. Regardless, rebuilding can't be used as an excuse.

[GradMc]

On 5/1/2021 at 11:09 PM, caulfield12 said:

Hahaha...deliberately trying to spark an argument, aren’t you?

Well, Abreu, Grandal, Giolito, Keuchel and Hendriks have combined for something like -0.6 value, but the Sox are still sitting pretty with everything in the division resting on the Royals’ starting pitching somehow holding up.

Right now, I would happily hand over the organization to the Brewers, Giants (new GM has hit FA pitcher after FA pitcher right on the head), Astros, Dodgers, Cardinals, Braves, Rays, A’s, Indians, etc., front offices and not even blink.  Heck, I will throw in Kim Ng from Miami fir good measure.  But, with the requirement there be a payroll floor of $150 million going forward in order to legitimately compete for a World Series title.

A stronger GM stands in the way of JR and forces his owner to choose between sentimental heart/emotion and rational logic/pragmatism and risk mitigation, which Hahn mostly represents.  If he’s actually as coveted as everyone claims, he should easily be able find another top position despite the clearly less than stellar FA and drafting record.

 

 

Before summoning security,  a prospective employer would shake their head at Hahn and utter:

"Shields for FTJR ?"

And that's that.

Edited May 4, 2021 by GradMc