Addressing the OF shortage (Robert Injury Spinoff)

[Bob Sacamano]

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

RF, but he has played 55 games in center in his career.

Thanks. Would not be a bad get.

Edit: just look at his stats. He is K'ing a ton but has a .410 OBP. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by manbearpuig

[SonofaRoache]

39 minutes ago, ron883 said:

With Engel's defense, isn't that like a 5 WAR player in CF? I think that is overly optimistic. He's not a 300 hitter.

He believes Engel plays a subpar CF, so no it wouldn't be. 

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, tray said:

Money isn't going to replace Eloy and Robert and the bullpen has been horrible.

It is a hard thing to face up to but realistically, this season is toast.

Maybe some silver linings on the dark clouds of 2021:

Vaughn, Collins and Mercedes get a lot of at bats in the majors to prove whether they can hit consistently. 

Pressure is off Kopech to start until he has built up arm strength.

Continue to develop Crochet on the fly including  some pre-game infield practice.

Assess the value of Rodon, Cease, Giolito  and others to  determine who might get  extended, for how much and who might be tradeable.

Allow Tony to manage these young players (respectfully) while looking for another Manager for next season.

And for the rest of us - enjoy watching the games without worrying who wins.,  Relax and maybe spend time in more useful pursuits over the summer.

 

 

 

I'd agree with you if we didn't already start replacing Eloy's production with Mercedes. Losing Robert hurts, but assuming they put somebody out there who can put up similar defense, and Abreu remembers how to hit, and the pitching starts just performing up to their career averages, the Sox should still be considered ALC favorites.  Remember, Vaughn is capable of putting up ROY numbers that could rival Mercedes. Once it clicks for him, a lot of ppl here are gonna forget about the Robert injury imo

bring on the laughing emojis bitches!

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

25 minutes ago, ron883 said:

You ain't wrong about his splits last year. I was pleasantly surprised after looking them up. Small sample size, but definitely encouraging. I think the Sox need to wait it out until Engel returns. Don't mortgage the future. This division is nothing special. 

I brought this up a month ago but the" he is what we thought he is " and BABIP naysayers shot me down. That's OK but we've been waiting already on Engels return for a month. What's he had 2 or 3 setbacks already with his hamstring injury and he's back to square one and out another 3+ weeks now ? How the heck does that even happen ? He got hurt March 21st and was expected to miss a couple of weeks and now we're looking at around June 1st for his return ?

[ChiSox59]

Bottom line for me, we probably would be fine if Engel were back.  Vaughn-Engel-Eaton OF should be fine most days with Hamilton and Leury filling in.  We just need TLR to pull his head out of his ass and actually put Vaughn in LF 90% of the time.  Problem is, we won't have Engel for another month.  We really need a guy who can cover CF for 4-6 weeks while Engel comes back.  I am sure the answer will just be Leury/Hamilton, and I am not sure there is really anything  available atm that is better.  If I am Hahn, I am just claiming OFs as they become available and sticking them in AAA and maybe some start to hit and when Leury/Hamilton prove incapable rather quickly, we give them a shot.  I guess Goodwin is where I would start.  

Trading Crochet or Kelley or (gasp) Kopech to go get a guy like Gallo or Bryant just doesn't seem wise.  Bryant definitely can't play CF, so he really jsut takes ABs away from Vaughn.  Gallo I guess could make due in CF for a few weeks - but man, this board is going to hate Gallo's game lol.  I like Peralta as a depth move, but again, he's just taking ABs away from Vaughn and is moreso insurance for a future Eaton injury.  Doesn't really solve short term problem.  Heyward would make some sense, but with a $21M salary and $44M due thru 2023, he his hard pass for me unless Cubs are picking up like 65%+ of that deal.  

No easy answers, basically.  I think you'll see Leury and Hamilton out there most days and maybe someone becomes available down the road.  Just need TLR to actually put the best lineup out there daily.  I also think we need to move TA into the middle of the lineup and Madrigal up.  TA needs to produce runs now.  This should be the lineups most days until Engel is back, and hten basically just insert Engel into the 9 hole and CF.  

Madrigal 2B, Moncada 3B, TA SS, Abreu 1B, Grandal C, Mercedes DH, Vaughn LF,  Eaton RF, Leury/Hamilton CF

Edited May 4, 2021 by ChiSox59

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

34 minutes ago, Soxsi75 said:

Well, in a way, I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. I wasn't happy with the "tanking" to begin with. I believe you play to win EVERY year. How much tanking do the Yankees do? I was never a fan of it because of exactly what's happened. You never know what's going to happen in the future. Stripping your team so you can become good in 5 years I've never agreed with. Because there's no guarantee of anything. You can preach future, future, future, but the future is something that never comes. So in the pretense you are spot on. Problem is, I don't think Hahn's going to do what you're saying. What evidence says he will? We lowballed Machado in the "bidding" for him. (Not saying they should have signed him, but just using an example of not going all out.)  This off season I really felt they gave it a "this is good enough" approach. And maybe it would have been........but then Jimenez and Robert are both out all year. Now they're caught with their pants down. So I'm just saying to accept this as a developmental year because I'm not sure anything can or will happen. And when it doesn't, I'll just be pissed off all summer, if I don't take this attitude.  Like I said in another post on here. In the future when this year is looked back on, it will be remembered as a year we didn't do/spend enough in the offseason, we overrated our bullpen, and a couple of indescribably catastrophic injuries. The only one of those three factors that can change is the overrating of the bullpen. Maybe they can turn it around and be the bullpen they were hyped to be? That's the only thing that can save this year. 

Nice to see another anti-tank guy around these parts. We seem to be in the minority. Most Sox fans seem to think that tearing everything down and punting multiple seasons was the only way forward. The Yankees don't have to tank because they have an ownership group that spends big $ and an extremely competent front office. Cleveland would be a more apt comparison in my opinion. The Tribe haven't had a losing season since 2012 and always have a bottom barrel payroll. 

You are right in regards to Hahn I suppose. There is absolutely no pressure on him to win this year so I'm not sure why he would rock the boat. Hahn will likely just continue to be the yes-man that he is. My only hope is that maybe Larussa gets in Reinsdorf's ear and is able to convince him to take on some salary in a trade. 

[GREEDY]

We shouldn't have given Leury 3.5 million if he can't be counted on to play (as early as May 1).  

I understand if it is July and he is still scuffling but it is early May.  Sample size only applies to some players round here.  

If it is about his defense... The same dudes that think Vaughn is fine in LF will have a problem with Leury in CF.  I can't think of 5 teams that have more than 1 legitimate defensive option in CF.  

 

[ron883]

3 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Nice to see another anti-tank guy around these parts. We seem to be in the minority. Most Sox fans seem to think that tearing everything down and punting multiple seasons was the only way forward. The Yankees don't have to tank because they have an ownership group that spends big $ and an extremely competent front office. Cleveland would be a more apt comparison in my opinion. The Tribe haven't had a losing season since 2012 and always have a bottom barrel payroll. 

You are right in regards to Hahn I suppose. There is absolutely no pressure on him to win this year so I'm not sure why he would rock the boat. Hahn will likely just continue to be the yes-man that he is. My only hope is that maybe Larussa gets in Reinsdorf's ear and is able to convince him to take on some salary in a trade. 

Can you name all these posters in the majority that want to blow it up right now?

Or are you saying you are anti-tank in general, despite the squad Hahn put together via tanking?

Edited May 4, 2021 by ron883

[y2chae]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Huh? Engel is an elite defensive CF.  

Oops I meant Eaton!

 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

We shouldn't have given Leury 3.5 million if he can't be counted on to play (as early as May 1).  

I understand if it is July and he is still scuffling but it is early May.  Sample size only applies to some players round here.  

If it is about his defense... The same dudes that think Vaughn is fine in LF will have a problem with Leury in CF.  I can't think of 5 teams that have more than 1 legitimate defensive option in CF.  

 

Leury is worth $3.5 million as the 4th guy off the bench because he can play CF and SS and this team's SS was clearly injury prone coming into the year, so "warm bodies who can fill in at those positions" are very useful. 

That doesn't mean you want him taking over CF nearly-full-time for a month+.

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Heyward would make some sense, but with a $21M salary and $44M due thru 2023, he his hard pass for me unless Cubs are picking up like 65%+ of that deal.  

Given the circumstances, the White Sox need to be flexible with the payroll here. Heyward at $8 million a year over the next 2 years would have been a decent addition in the offseason. Given a desperation penalty on the White Sox - if they could get him right now, today, and pay $12 or $13 million a year without having to give up any real talent, I would say get that done. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Given the circumstances, the White Sox need to be flexible with the payroll here. Heyward at $8 million a year over the next 2 years would have been a decent addition in the offseason. Given a desperation penalty on the White Sox - if they could get him right now, today, and pay $12 or $13 million a year without having to give up any real talent, I would say get that done. 

Is he that much better than Leury? He isn't right now and both would sit when Engel comes back.

[GREEDY]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Leury is worth $3.5 million as the 4th guy off the bench because he can play CF 

That doesn't mean you want him taking over CF 

Got it  

 

------

 

Also, no one "wants" this.  The question is what seemingly upgrade over Leury for the next 20 games is going to be significant enough to warrant giving up anything of value? Likely none.  

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Given the circumstances, the White Sox need to be flexible with the payroll here. Heyward at $8 million a year over the next 2 years would have been a decent addition in the offseason. Given a desperation penalty on the White Sox - if they could get him right now, today, and pay $12 or $13 million a year without having to give up any real talent, I would say get that done. 

Yeah, I'd rather just roll with Leury/Hamilton for the next month until Engel is back than spend clsoe to $40M on 2.75 seasons on washed up Jason Heyward.  He's got ~$60M left on his deal as of today.  I think the number where it starts to maybe make some sense is Cubs kick in $40M, Sox take on $20M.  Taking $40M away from next offseasons budget on Jason Heyward just seems like a terrible use of limited resources.  They dude won't even be playing most days once Engel gets back.  

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Is he that much better than Leury? He isn't right now and both would sit when Engel comes back.

At his best, Leury is a 1 WAR player in a 600 PA season, and some years he's been a 0 WAR player. Heyward is basically a 2 WAR player every year since 2016. Leury also has something of an injury history himself, as does Adam Eaton, as does Billy Hamilton. If Hamilton and Leury are on the IL by May 15, you can't sit here and say "oh how could this possibly have happened no one could ever have seen this coming". 

Heyward would probably platoon with Engel if Engel ever comes back, or could give Eaton some time to get healthy, and would take over RF as the primary option next year when Eaton is gone. That would be a reasonable thing to do as it would give you a RF who can move over to CF if Robert has any long-term lingering issues and needs more time off.

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

15 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Can you name all these posters in the majority that want to blow it up right now?

Or are you saying you are anti-tank in general, despite the squad Hahn put together via tanking?

I'm talking about the tank job that started on the South Side in December of 2016 when Sale was traded to Boston. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah, I'd rather just roll with Leury/Hamilton for the next month until Engel is back than spend clsoe to $40M on 2.75 seasons on washed up Jason Heyward.  He's got ~$60M left on his deal as of today.  I think the number where it starts to maybe make some sense is Cubs kick in $40M, Sox take on $20M.  Taking $40M away from next offseasons budget on Jason Heyward just seems like a terrible use of limited resources.  They dude won't even be playing most days once Engel gets back.  

I'd say having the Sox take on $40 million and the Cubs stake on $20 million is a reasonable premium to pay for having gambled on health this year and lost.

[ron883]

Just now, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

I'm talking about the tank job that started on the South Side in December of 2016 when Sale was traded to Boston. 

Well, that's dumb

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Oh my, if fans hate Grandal this much imagine having Gallo and Grandal in the same lineup. Game threads would be hot take city!

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

29 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Bottom line for me, we probably would be fine if Engel were back.  Vaughn-Engel-Eaton OF should be fine most days with Hamilton and Leury filling in.  We just need TLR to pull his head out of his ass and actually put Vaughn in LF 90% of the time.  Problem is, we won't have Engel for another month.  We really need a guy who can cover CF for 4-6 weeks while Engel comes back.  I am sure the answer will just be Leury/Hamilton, and I am not sure there is really anything  available atm that is better.  If I am Hahn, I am just claiming OFs as they become available and sticking them in AAA and maybe some start to hit and when Leury/Hamilton prove incapable rather quickly, we give them a shot.  I guess Goodwin is where I would start.  

Trading Crochet or Kelley or (gasp) Kopech to go get a guy like Gallo or Bryant just doesn't seem wise.  Bryant definitely can't play CF, so he really jsut takes ABs away from Vaughn.  Gallo I guess could make due in CF for a few weeks - but man, this board is going to hate Gallo's game lol.  I like Peralta as a depth move, but again, he's just taking ABs away from Vaughn and is moreso insurance for a future Eaton injury.  Doesn't really solve short term problem.  Heyward would make some sense, but with a $21M salary and $44M due thru 2023, he his hard pass for me unless Cubs are picking up like 65%+ of that deal.  

No easy answers, basically.  I think you'll see Leury and Hamilton out there most days and maybe someone becomes available down the road.  Just need TLR to actually put the best lineup out there daily.  I also think we need to move TA into the middle of the lineup and Madrigal up.  TA needs to produce runs now.  This should be the lineups most days until Engel is back, and hten basically just insert Engel into the 9 hole and CF.  

Madrigal 2B, Moncada 3B, TA SS, Abreu 1B, Grandal C, Mercedes DH, Vaughn LF,  Eaton RF, Leury/Hamilton CF

Giving up Crochet for Bryant would be awesome. There is plenty of room for Bryant's bat in this lineup. 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Oh my, if fans hate Grandal this much imagine having Gallo and Grandal in the same lineup. Game threads would be hot take city!

Exactly man.  If people can't appreciate Grandal's game (and it seems about 80% of Soxtalk is ready to never see him take another AB in a Sox uni), imagine trading away Crochet ++ for Gallo.  

[GermanSoxFan]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I'd say having the Sox take on $40 million and the Cubs stake on $20 million is a reasonable premium to pay for having gambled on health this year and lost.

This resultis in the Sox being stuck with sub-par RF for two more years.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Giving up Crochet for Bryant would be awesome. There is plenty of room for Bryant's bat in this lineup. 

I thought it was a terrible trade yesterday when we discussed, and I still think its a terrible trade today.  You don't give up TOR SP prospects for 75% of a season of a player making market value.  That is what terrible trades are made of.  

Of course you can make room for a guy like Bryant in this lineup.  The solution is sitting Vaughn, Mercedes or Eaton.  He is a good bat that would make the team better, but he doesn't solve the current problem.  

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, GermanSoxFan said:

This resultis in the Sox being stuck with sub-par RF for two more years.

Technically it results in the Sox having a par RF for 2 more years, because if he remains a 2 WAR player, that's an average MLB player. And he's some depth who can shift over to CF. And he could cover for Eloy if he gets hurt again. And of Adolfo ever put things together, it can be a platoon.

It's more money than this org would want to spend, but that's the kind of player good teams will have around - often overpaid, but capable of being subbed in when needed.

[FriendlyNorthsider]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Given the circumstances, the White Sox need to be flexible with the payroll here. Heyward at $8 million a year over the next 2 years would have been a decent addition in the offseason. Given a desperation penalty on the White Sox - if they could get him right now, today, and pay $12 or $13 million a year without having to give up any real talent, I would say get that done. 

From a Cubs fan perspective that would absolutely get done. I said in the offseason thread that pre-Eaton, Heyward +Kimbrel would be a way to add some solid defense and a great closer for just money. 

I still think Bryant would be a great fit for the Sox, but that would only be done if that plan was to move Engel to center full time