zack collins

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I would generally agree that catchers age poorly because of the demands of the position,but still talking about signing Grandal over McCann hasn't made sense and it still doesn't make sense. I can see an argument for 2 catchers who don't make much money who provide good work with pitchers since that's an often overlooked part of the job.

But preparing to come out of the rebuild the Sox had certain needs like LH power and OBP. Grandal had both those things. He was actually an ideal fit because A.) he had a track record of being that type of player and B.) McCann had 1 one year of being who he was for the Sox and C. )Because of the 2 good years McCann had was always going to test free agency. Could the Sox have tried to extend him based on the 1st year ? Sure, if they really thought he was going to be special moving forward but that still didn't solve finding a LH power hitter who also provided OBP.

Today the Sox are now among the leaders in OBP  and I'd like to think that's because the Sox placed greater emphasis on it when they signed Grandal. It's no coincidence that the Sox are last in HR's but still are among the leaders in run differential and still considered one of the better offensive teams mostly accomplished without Eloy. It has a lot to do with OBP we are getting from guys who have more professional AB's now like Grandal, Moncada, Collins, Vaughn, Madrigal, Mercedes Anderson all guys who have either a high BA or have a good eye or some combination of both.

I understand your take, it’s reasonable and shared by many.

My thoughts on the 2019-2020 offseason (realtime then, I didn’t join until September) were their primary needs were SP and RF. While the contract length for Keuchel scared me, from a roster standpoint it made sense. In terms of Grandal and Parrot, I thought these were more luxury type acquisitions where they still need of SP and RF.

Once Grandal signed, their budget didn’t allow for McCann, and I didn’t argue to also try to resign vs. a $40M offer, which I believe was an anomaly due to Cohen throwing around funny money. 

McCann was a great bridge here as their best pitching coach since Ricky was stuck with Cooper. Lucas led the effort to bring in Katz, who I wanted since Lucas’ turnaround, and stated this here before the manager change.

If Tony’s pitching coach choice said yes (Dave Duncan), I don’t believe the Sox would be .500 at this point, that Cease or Rodon would not have been this good, this quick or what level if any to be coached by Dave Duncan, also far removed from the radical changes in pitching over the past decade. The Sox need to continue to move into the 21st century, and can take a quantum leap once their 20th century manager leaves the building.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I understand your take, it’s reasonable and shared by many.

My thoughts on the 2019-2020 offseason (realtime then, I didn’t join until September) were their primary needs were SP and RF. While the contract length for Keuchel scared me, from a roster standpoint it made sense. In terms of Grandal and Parrot, I thought these were more luxury type acquisitions where they still need of SP and RF.

Once Grandal signed, their budget didn’t allow for McCann, and I didn’t argue to also try to resign vs. a $40M offer, which I believe was an anomaly due to Cohen throwing around funny money. 

McCann was a great bridge here as their best pitching coach since Ricky was stuck with Cooper. Lucas led the effort to bring in Katz, who I wanted since Lucas’ turnaround, and stated this here before the manager change.

If Tony’s pitching coach choice said yes (Dave Duncan), I don’t believe the Sox would be .500 at this point, that Cease or Rodon would not have been this good, this quick or what level if any to be coached by Dave Duncan, also far removed from the radical changes in pitching over the past decade. The Sox need to continue to move into the 21st century, and can take a quantum leap once their 20th century manager leaves the building.

 

For the Sox, the Grandal and Keuchel signings were a promise fulfilled about spending the money as hard as that is for some to except. Those are kind of minimal FA contracts for 3 or 4 years is just what we  as fans should be expecting from the Sox. That is their idea of spending the money.  Anyone expecting much bigger contracts on much better players has always been disappointed.

The Sox normal playground is signings in the 1-3 yr range usually in the $7-15M per year range. That's the mid range for them that they have been terrible with.It might be the lower end for a lot of teams. That's why sometimes we have to accept when the Sox prioritize a need for a certain type of player rather than a position.

I was ok with Mazara because he was still young enough with upside. It didn't work out but it was better than a 30 something with no upside. I was also one of the few ok with McCann, again a younger guy rather than the retreads, 30-38 yr old catchers on the market every year. Or in the case of Grandal, LH power and OBP . The Sox were desperate for both those things.

Pull any old EE thread and or off season threads and whenever DH was brought up as a position of need  you'll find I never wanted to pay for a DH . I thought Collins and Mercedes should be given a shot. The EE signing was a typical Sox signing , a blast from the old past paying some over the hill guy way too much  hoping for just one more good year .

Unfortunately as Sox fans we hate the low budget signings like McCann, Mazara, or Rodon  but I'd rather see them take chances on upside in the bargain basement than paying extra for past production. Sign those youngish guys who showed some promise once below their prime , grab them at 24, 25 ,26,27, and maybe you find a Justin Turner or Max Muncy once in a while. Guys who you can actually keep for more than a yr. or 2 but have the room to give an opportunity to very soon.

The budget is what it is so I try not to fuss about the size of a Grandal type contract because like it or not that's the top of the barrel for the Sox. That was always the challenge for the Sox to win a World Series in the window. We  probably aren't going to get any real big signings like the Cubs or Astro's did in their windows. As much as we wanted a Bauer or a Springer or Machado or even Wheeler the odds are against us winning those battles.

This is Jerry  doing what he does. The Sox need  good luck to win in our window . That's how it is . We got some with Rodon and Mercedes and some bad luck with Eloy and Robert. At least it wasn't all bad . Now we just have to ride out the shit storms, keep playing and find where the holes truly are for the stretch run and hope we can get a reinforcement or 2 at the TDL in positions of need. Like it or not this is the formula we get. Wish us luck ,we are always going to need it more than the other rebuilds.

This is why JR doesn't fire guys like Hahn. He knows he puts all kinds of obstacles in his way. You wanna know why Hahn won Executive of the year as voted by his peers ? It's because his peers know who Hahn's Chairman of the Board is and how difficult it is to get anything accomplished as a GM under JR.

Edited May 9, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Sleepy Harold]

16 hours ago, Vulture said:

Throwing isn’t the only thing a catcher needs to be mobile for; preventing passed balls and wild pitches and fielding your position, for example. Seems a little more important than trying to trick an ump but maybe I’m old fashioned

Those points are valid and catchers should obviously focus on trying to prevent as many as they can. Looking at the stats, the Sox are tied for second with 7 other teams with 4 PBs, which isn't great (Marlins lead the league with 6). They also check in at 26th with 7 WPs this season (the Tigers are in first with a whopping 25). While the PB portion could absolutely use some shoring up, the Sox and their Cs seem to be doing a great job at limiting WPs. It would be interesting to see if there is any direct correlation on the way C's set up leading (or not leading) to more WP/PBs.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

For the Sox, the Grandal and Keuchel signings were a promise fulfilled about spending the money as hard as that is for some to except. Those are kind of minimal FA contracts for 3 or 4 years is just what we  as fans should be expecting from the Sox. That is their idea of spending the money.  Anyone expecting much bigger contracts on much better players has always been disappointed.

The Sox normal playground is signings in the 1-3 yr range usually in the $7-15M per year range. That's the mid range for them that they have been terrible with.It might be the lower end for a lot of teams. That's why sometimes we have to accept when the Sox prioritize a need for a certain type of player rather than a position.

I was ok with Mazara because he was still young enough with upside. It didn't work out but it was better than a 30 something with no upside. I was also one of the few ok with McCann, again a younger guy rather than the retreads, 30-38 yr old catchers on the market every year. Or in the case of Grandal, LH power and OBP . The Sox were desperate for both those things.

Pull any old EE thread and or off season threads and whenever DH was brought up as a position of need  you'll find I never wanted to pay for a DH . I thought Collins and Mercedes should be given a shot. The EE signing was a typical Sox signing , a blast from the old past paying some over the hill guy way too much  hoping for just one more good year .

Unfortunately as Sox fans we hate the low budget signings like McCann, Mazara, or Rodon  but I'd rather see them take chances on upside in the bargain basement than paying extra for past production. Sign those youngish guys who showed some promise once below their prime , grab them at 24, 25 ,26,27, and maybe you find a Justin Turner or Max Muncy once in a while. Guys who you can actually keep for more than a yr. or 2 but have the room to give an opportunity to very soon.

The budget is what it is so I try not to fuss about the size of a Grandal type contract because like it or not that's the top of the barrel for the Sox. That was always the challenge for the Sox to win a World Series in the window. We  probably aren't going to get any real big signings like the Cubs or Astro's did in their windows. As much as we wanted a Bauer or a Springer or Machado or even Wheeler the odds are against us winning those battles.

This is Jerry  doing what he does. The Sox need  good luck to win in our window . That's how it is . We got some with Rodon and Mercedes and some bad luck with Eloy and Robert. At least it wasn't all bad . Now we just have to ride out the shit storms, keep playing and find where the holes truly are for the stretch run and hope we can get a reinforcement or 2 at the TDL in positions of need. Like it or not this is the formula we get. Wish us luck ,we are always going to need it more than the other rebuilds.

This is why JR doesn't fire guys like Hahn. He knows he puts all kinds of obstacles in his way. You wanna know why Hahn won Executive of the year as voted by his peers ? It's because his peers know who Hahn's Chairman of the Board is and how difficult it is to get anything accomplished as a GM under JR.

Agree with most of this. Had no problem with Mazara gamble when they had no more money, but preferred Nick Castellanos due to his age and positional need over another old DH and Mazara.

Successful low budget signings (and young player in house contracts) are the key. I liked the Rodon signing, and thought Lynn made sense due to his contract. Kenny did far more with far less $ in 2005 due to several savvy signings spread out over many players.

I also argued this off-season it made no sense to pursue Bauer or Springer, or before I joined here Machado, unless JR was committed to permanently increasing payroll by the same amount, because it makes even less sense in terms of roster construction and percentage of payroll tied up for a couple of guys.

The Sox are already greatly constrained spending over 40% of current payroll on three older guys (Keuchel, Grandal and Hendriks). They need to pivot to committing future payroll to their young outstanding core, when their deals expire.

[poppysox]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:38 PM, SpringfieldFan said:

So I think the key take is that it's not just about who you acquire and when; it's also about who you let go and when.

Yep...ya gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.  Sorry...I felt a song coming on.

[Dominikk85]

Collins really looks better at the plate this year. His 103 wrc+ is pretty good for a backup and his xWOBA of 338 is a good bit better than his actual production (314 WOBA). 

Defensively he is not great of course but for a good hitting backup it is OK. 

Just wish Tony would use him more to pinch hit instead of batting leury and Billy late in games. 

[Greg Hibbard]

How does one interpret Collins’ WAR? His bWAR is only 0.2 this season and over the course of his career it’s not good obviously. Is that just a bad metric for his position/playing time? He also is sitting at an OPS+ of 90 for 2021. He doesn’t seem this bad to me. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Greg Hibbard

[Dick Allen]

First off, its a back up catcher, so temper the expectations. Secondly, the guy isn't used to sporadic playing time. Finally, he isn't playing based on opposing pitcher match ups. He is catching certain guys for the most part. 

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

How does one interpret Collins’ WAR? His bWAR is only 0.2 this season and over the course of his career it’s not good obviously. Is that just a bad metric for his position/playing time? He also is sitting at an OPS+ of 90 for 2021. He doesn’t seem this bad to me. 

Collins is playing well and doing what the team is expecting him to do. He has improved his defense to the point of being trusted on a regular basis, and has built confidence over the season with the two most important young Sox pitchers.

Can he continue to improve? Sure, but he is fine in his role, and perhaps can continue to grow and be a 3 in 5 game starting catcher in 2024 with more coaching and work.

The platoon brigade freaks out every time he starts against a LHP, but his role as catcher far outweighs a platoon advantage. I get ripped for saying this, but Tony, Katz, Carlos and Lucas agree with this arrangement, and that is all that matters.

In addition, you get the benefit of a fresher Grandal if he can rest or play DH/1B two out of every five games.

Edited July 1, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Chicago White Sox]

I’m one of Collins’ biggest fans, but he’ll still need work on his framing in the coming years.  Right now he’s in the 1% percentile per Statcast and can’t frame a strike on the corners to save his life.  That being said, he appears to handle the staff pretty well and is a plus hitter against RHP (135 wRC+).  To me, he should be starting everyday against RHP, with a couple starts a week at catcher and the rest at DH.  And he could be super valuable in that role similar to a Mike Napoli or Evan Gattis.

[ptatc]

18 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Collins is playing well and doing what the team is expecting him to do. He has improved his defense to the point of being trusted on a regular basis, and has built confidence over the season with the two most important young Sox pitchers.

Can he continue to improve? Sure, but he is fine in his role, and perhaps can continue to grow and be a 3 in 5 game starting catcher in 2024 with more coaching and work.

The platoon brigade freaks out every time he starts against a LHP, but his role as catcher far outweighs a platoon advantage. I get ripped for saying this, but Tony, Katz, Carlos and Lucas agree with this arrangement, and that is all that matters.

In addition, you get the benefit of a fresher Grandal if he can rest or play DH/1B two out of every five games.

Agreed. Not to mention he is still fairly new to the MLB with a total of 212 at bats. It is possible for young ayers to learn and he may get better against LHP. He is too young for a strict platoon role.