Steve Stone / Yoan Moncada's "Lack of Effort and Interest"

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Sounds more like you are making points for the critics. "Not a natural base stealer". So, he isn't going to put in the work to learn to become something, at which he isn't already so gifted that he can't accomplish it, just on his talent. "He gets banged up too much running and sliding...."  Oh, so sorry. We wouldn't want him to get any burns or bruises, from sliding, would we? You may want to reconsider your argument. Those points aren't very convincing. Look, I admire the guy's talent and hope that he becomes a super star. So far, however, he definitely isn't. 

There are guys with flat out sprint speed, quickness and fast acceleration.

Moncada is just not a natural or instinctive base-stealer.

Never has been...and I wouldn’t be shocked if nobody in the front office is all that concerned.  Maybe they just know the likelihood of injury is not worth the extra bag unless it’s an absolutely critical scoring situation.
 

Just like guys such as Dunn, Morneau and Thome never started learning push bunts up the 3B line...against the shift.

[caulfield12]

Yoan Moncada is the 24th ranked player by fWAR.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=22,d

 

Nick Madrigal is currently on pace for 1.2-1.5 fWAR.  Moncada, 5-6.

But clearly Moncada is the bigger issue.  Maybe Burger can be shifted to second if Max Muncy can pull it off.

Even Andrew Vaughn is heading towards 3.5 (besting a healthy but defensively challenged Jimenez), and Grandal and Eaton 2.5ish.

Heck, Collins has the same fWAR as Madrigal.

And when Madrigal hustles his ass off, he’s still 10-15 meters behind Moncada in a 100 meter race.  Engel, Hamilton, Robert and even TA are close to lapping him on the curve if it’s 220 m.

Edited May 15, 2021 by caulfield12

[hogan873]

I like Steve Stone, but his assertion that Moncada is lazy is...bad.  Moncada has a shit ton if talent and makes a lot of things look effortless, especially on defense.  He does have swagger, but it’s a more subdued swagger, definitely in comparison to TA.  The guy is one of the best 3Bs in baseball.  Lazy players don’t become the best in their field.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

I like Steve Stone, but his assertion that Moncada is lazy is...bad.  Moncada has a shit ton if talent and makes a lot of things look effortless, especially on defense.  He does have swagger, but it’s a more subdued swagger, definitely in comparison to TA.  The guy is one of the best 3Bs in baseball.  Lazy players don’t become the best in their field.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=21,d
 

Glad you asked. #1 defensive fWAR in the game today at 3B.  TA is 11th at SS.  Luis Robert 10th for his position.

Nick Madrigal 21st out of 27 qualified.

 

Overall, 10th overall in MLB when looking at all positions.  10/165.  Gold Glover Gallo dead last.

Edited May 15, 2021 by caulfield12

[ron883]

22 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Sounds more like you are making points for the critics. "Not a natural base stealer". So, he isn't going to put in the work to learn to become something, at which he isn't already so gifted that he can't accomplish it, just on his talent. "He gets banged up too much running and sliding...."  Oh, so sorry. We wouldn't want him to get any burns or bruises, from sliding, would we? You may want to reconsider your argument. Those points aren't very convincing. Look, I admire the guy's talent and hope that he becomes a super star. So far, however, he definitely isn't. 

Yoan is simply prone to nagging injuries. I don't want him stealing bases all the time if it will result in injuries. He's simply too valuable. 

[TheTruth05]

Stony would make a horrible manager apparently lol ostracizing a top 3 Player on this team for no reason

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, TheTruth05 said:

Stony would make a horrible manager apparently lol ostracizing a top 3 Player on this team for no reason

And creating a clique by turning half the Cubans against the others and their teammates...not unlike the Yermin lesson that wouldn’t have happened with a veteran player without his own signature burger a month into his rookie campaign.

[Texsox]

Fortunately in today's world a tweet like that is money. You gotta love a stupid old boomer winning at the millennial's game. It's all about the followers and eyeballs. 

[Lillian]

Is it possible that La Russa, Hahn, or someone else in the organization, is using Stone to deliver a message to Moncada? Perhaps he has been criticized by management, but it hasn't been effective and this is simply another way to make the point. I have no idea, just wondering. This has to be coming from somewhere. I don't believe that Stone is simply inventing this public criticism, all on his own, for no reason.

[ron883]

2 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Is it possible that La Russa, Hahn, or someone else in the organization, is using Stone to deliver a message to Moncada? Perhaps he has been criticized by management, but it hasn't been effective and this is simply another way to make the point. I have no idea, just wondering. This has to be coming from somewhere. I don't believe that Stone is simply inventing this public criticism, all on his own, for no reason.

No. I don't think using your announcer to publicly rip a player is how they would "send a message" to a player

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

Is it possible that La Russa, Hahn, or someone else in the organization, is using Stone to deliver a message to Moncada? Perhaps he has been criticized by management, but it hasn't been effective and this is simply another way to make the point. I have no idea, just wondering. This has to be coming from somewhere. I don't believe that Stone is simply inventing this public criticism, all on his own, for no reason.

Very possible. In the old days a manager could call out a player and the player would bust his ass. Today's players will be angry at the criticism and not be able to play as well. A manager has to be much more sensitive to his player's feelings today to get the most out of them.

 

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

No. I don't think using your announcer to publicly rip a player is how they would "send a message" to a player

I believe it's South Side Hit Man who refers to them as the team's paid mouthpiece. 

[KipWellsFan]

Why does this threat title have "lack of effort and interest" in quotations? That's not what Stone said.

That aside, I don't think Stone's comments are ridiculous. He was a sympathetic voice in support of Moncada last year while he was dealing with COVID, and I don't think Stone has a history of beating up on Moncada unfairly.

There have been a few instances in the past couple weeks where Moncada didn't run as hard as he could out of the box. He got caught being a spectator on his deep flyball the other day, and he doesn't always keep on the jets on singles and balls toward the gap in case there is a bobble that allows him to take an additional base. To me those are examples where he isn't maximizing potential positive outcomes. Nonetheless, these weren't major things. And for all we know if he played to the absolute limit all the time he might miss a lot of time due to injury. Instead, he is actually quite reliable.

I think it was the running issues combined with Stone's anger about all the strange pop up plays lately with Moncada. I'm not surprised it boiled over for Stone a little bit.  Doesn't help that Moncada has that natural cool demeanor that players like Madrigal and Eaton don't have. Moncada can make the game look easy sometimes.

If Moncada raises his game a little more he comes pretty elite. I love all the walks he is able to take, and I think he's reached base safely in 25 of the last 26 games. And outside of his weird play on pop outs he is very gifted at third.

Edited May 15, 2021 by KipWellsFan

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

I believe it's South Side Hit Man who refers to them as the team's paid mouthpiece. 

Well they are paid directly by a Jerry owned corporation in Stone's case, radio announcers are indirectly controlled in terms of rights for refusal. Scott Merkin is paid via the team.

I went to the contract page to confirm Yoan's is signed through 2024 with a 1 year option. Sometimes announcers will have inside information in terms of interest in resigning/arbitration, but in this instance I don't believe this is coming from JR or the FO.

Tony would rather have any issues handled by himself and his coaches, especially based on Tony's personal sensitivity regarding broadcaster criticism from the start of his career when he brought his coaching staff to pick a fight with a 50 year old Jimmy Piersall, extending to a few years ago with his "heated discussion" with Pirate announcers while serving as "Chief Baseball Officer" of the Arizona Diamondbacks.

Just Stone being Stone, IMO. Wonder if it will end for him here as it did in 2004 on the North Side.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[pcq]

57 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

I like Steve Stone, but his assertion that Moncada is lazy is...bad.  Moncada has a shit ton if talent and makes a lot of things look effortless, especially on defense.  He does have swagger, but it’s a more subdued swagger, definitely in comparison to TA.  The guy is one of the best 3Bs in baseball.  Lazy players don’t become the best in their field.

It's not about Steve Stone. Steve is not the Oracle of the South Side. 

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

Why does this threat title have "lack of effort and interest" in quotations? That's not what Stone said.

If you read the entire Twitter exchange, Rob Liberty's assessment was in quotes, the twitter poster who praised Stone for Stone's "low key criticizing of Moncada's lack of effort at times, and seeming lack of interest". Steve made no effort to dispute that assessment. What he chose to respond to was the second Twitter poster who defended Yoan.

Steve's responses were first to insult Yoan by comparing him to Jose.

Quote

One busts his butt on every play, the other is named Yoan.

Steve then doubled down by stating

Quote

Opinions are just that. Facts are facts. Tell him what you want and if he doesn't like it tell him to hustle everyday and we'll have no problem.

Those are direct quotes from Steve, which are even more indicting the response to the praise he received for his "low key criticizing". Steve didn't dispute this assessment in anyway, he amplified it. He is also stating it's a "fact" that Yoan lacks everyday hustle, not merely Steve's opinion. Not sure how one can state that as "fact".

All this from the initial post which didn't even mention Moncada, but was team related. Steve Stone could have just ignored the Moncada comments, he choose to engage the poster defending Yoan. It's clear to most readers Steve does have an issue with Moncada's "lack of effort and interest", and those who object to that characterization.

Edited May 15, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Sambuca]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Stone didn’t have 1/4th of Moncado’s talent? Abreu has to go all out to be average? 

Great points. Unlike Stone and all the boomers, I’m certain you will continue to learn more about baseball and not less as you get older. 
 

Exactly what points are you making here besides that omitting an extremely important word from a sentence can drastically change the meaning?

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Sambuca said:

Exactly what points are you making here besides that omitting an extremely important word from a sentence can drastically change the meaning?

Just that you could play ten years in the majors,  win a Cy Young award, then spend decades watching the game and your opinion wouldn't be worth as much as it is now. 

 

[caulfield12]

Darn him for diving/hustling into first base...Stone of course noting that doesn’t get you there any faster.  

[Sambuca]

20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Darn him for diving/hustling into first base...Stone of course noting that doesn’t get you there any faster.  

I admit that was a dumb move by Moncada.

But the weirder and very passive aggressive comment by Pony was “I know a guy who would love to bat in this situation,” referring to Abreu. 

I get Abreu is our guy, but coming into this game, Moncada is slashing .438/.525/.656 with RISP this season.  

I wouldn’t have thought much about Pony’s comment if it weren’t for his recent Tweets. 

 

[fathom]

Don’t worry, Stoney has a history of quickly letting go of grudges....not

[reiks12]

5 hours ago, Lillian said:

Is it possible that La Russa, Hahn, or someone else in the organization, is using Stone to deliver a message to Moncada? Perhaps he has been criticized by management, but it hasn't been effective and this is simply another way to make the point. I have no idea, just wondering. This has to be coming from somewhere. I don't believe that Stone is simply inventing this public criticism, all on his own, for no reason.

Anythings possible but i seriously doubt that. I think its just more likely that Stone is a bit fed up with the mental errors on popups

[fathom]

1 minute ago, reiks12 said:

Anythings possible but i seriously doubt that. I think its just more likely that Stone is a bit fed up with the mental errors on popups

I would be very surprised if Stoney said something that Jerry vehemently disagreed with.   Yoan has long been my pick for the player some in the organization didn’t think he knew what it took to be a champion.

[reiks12]

3 minutes ago, fathom said:

 Yoan has long been my pick for the player some in the organization didn’t think he knew what it took to be a champion.

Based on?

[Sambuca]

6 hours ago, Texsox said:

Stone didn’t have 1/4th of Moncado’s talent? Abreu has to go all out to be average? 

Great points. Unlike Stone and all the boomers, I’m certain you will continue to learn more about baseball and not less as you get older. 
 

For the record, the word you omitted was “defender” in your Abreu question.   In case there was any confusion.