5/23 White Sox vs Yankees

[RG23SoxFan]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

Some of that may be true. And I’m 100% more critical of TLR at this point in the season because he’s given us plenty of reason to be. I know for a fact in the first week or so of the season, I posted how that I felt the hardest part of the TLR stuff was going to be the players accepting him, but once they seemingly got past that in Spring Training, I really felt like he was going to be OK in the dugout. X’s and O’s. He seemed to be pulling the right levers. That QUICKLY changed after the Foster stuff, Hendricks on 2B, Giolito being gassed, etc. So there is no question that a bigger microscope is being placed on TLR right now. But I agree it’s not totally fair to not at least notice some of the good stuff as well, and there certainly has been at times and I’m sure there will be in the future. But as a whole..it’s been pretty bad, in my opinion. 

This series alone I didn't like a couple TLR's decisions.  When Marshall was able to escape the 8th on Friday night I was dumbfounded when he pitched the 9th.  Also as noted I didn't like bringing in Ruiz in today's game.  He has definitely done enough that I understand criticism coming from fans.  I don't care about all this unwritten rules garbage and players getting their feelings hurt or becoming distracted etc...  If these players can't perform because their manager is some old school guy then they are pretty mentally weak and probably won't win anything meaningful anyways.  

[ron jeremy]

2 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Right.  Also he could steal off of Hendriks too.  If Hendriks walks him, he can still steal just the same.

your hypotheticals are ridiculous

[YourWhatHurts]

Just now, ron jeremy said:

Dont think you can assume he would have come in in a clean inning and been wild. No runners on compared to bases loaded and 1 out are 2 very distinct experiences. 

Yes I think I can assume that.  Hendriks gets wild a lot, even if it isn't showing up in the BB column.  He gets wild in the zone and has difficulty getting 2 pitches over at the same time.  In a tie game bottom of the 9th in that stadium vs. that offense he is only 1 hanging breaking ball away from a loss.  And with those corners you can't even spot a FB up and out because someone with some pop can just extend their arms a bit and knock it out.  Wildness generally seems to come from being afraid to miss.  9th in Yankee Stadium vs. that offense and he's still going to be afraid to miss if he's not feeling good in the bullpen before coming out.

As someone said elsewhere, he doesn't want to just groove it down the middle of the plate.  You need both stuff and control to get out of that situation.  Clean inning or not, IMO the Hendriks that pitched today most likely blows the game anyway.

[fathom]

I don’t like that Tony’s whole strategy that inning was Hendriks vs Judge. Judge is the guy they should have been trying to avoid at all costs.

[RG23SoxFan]

Maybe Hendriks and Kopech should switch roles.

[ron jeremy]

2 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Yes I think I can assume that.  Hendriks gets wild a lot, even if it isn't showing up in the BB column.  He gets wild in the zone and has difficulty getting 2 pitches over at the same time.  In a tie game bottom of the 9th in that stadium vs. that offense he is only 1 hanging breaking ball away from a loss.  And with those corners you can't even spot a FB up and out because someone with some pop can just extend their arms a bit and knock it out.  Wildness generally seems to come from being afraid to miss.  9th in Yankee Stadium vs. that offense and he's still going to be afraid to miss if he's not feeling good in the bullpen before coming out.

As someone said elsewhere, he doesn't want to just groove it down the middle of the plate.  You need both stuff and control to get out of that situation.  Clean inning or not, IMO the Hendriks that pitched today most likely blows the game anyway.

if thats the case then there is an over arching question. You seem to believe Hendriks cant close. Thats a closer situation. Period. You dont bring in your closer with bases loaded in the 9th and 1 out. He starts the inning. Did the same thing with Marshall last night and same outcome

[SoCalChiSox]

Just now, RG23SoxFan said:

Maybe Hendriks and Kopech should switch roles.

I'm pretty sure JR isnt gonna be on board with 13m a year for 4 years for middle inning relief. 

And he isnt gonna want to hear about sunk costs either.

 

[YourWhatHurts]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

I don’t like that Tony’s whole strategy that inning was Hendriks vs Judge. Judge is the guy they should have been trying to avoid at all costs.

I think TLR is probably thinking that his 2 best guys available are Bummer and Hendriks.  You need 6 outs minimum to win so stretch those 2 guys and then deal with the rest of it later.

If Bummer gets that GIDP and is out of the inning, then the Sox score top of the 10th and Hendriks comes into the game with a clean inning, it looks like absolutely the correct move.  And really we were pretty close to having that happen.

As I said before, bottom line, if this team is going to win, both Bummer and Hendriks need to be on.  But I do think Hendriks is suffering from not getting regular work and also from having the pressure of a tag on him instead of just going out and pitching.  The Sox should state they will go closer by committee and take the pressure off of Hendriks, and pitch him more, and then go that route.  I think that would yield better results overall.

[YourWhatHurts]

1 minute ago, ron jeremy said:

if thats the case then there is an over arching question. You seem to believe Hendriks cant close. Thats a closer situation. Period. You dont bring in your closer with bases loaded in the 9th and 1 out. He starts the inning. Did the same thing with Marshall last night and same outcome

A tie game in the 9th on the road is not a typical closer situation even though sometimes you see it.  Again we need 6 outs.  Can you really trust Hendriks for 6 outs?  Most closers go less than 2 IP per game.

Also Marshall came in today in the same situation and temporarily saved the game.  The one sorta-complaint I had watching it live was bringing in the garbage man to put the game out of reach.  Instead it actually worked.  We don't get to that spot if Marshall doesn't come through bigtime there.

[RG23SoxFan]

2 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I'm pretty sure JR isnt gonna be on board with 13m a year for 4 years for middle inning relief. 

And he isnt gonna want to hear about sunk costs either.

 

Yeah, I was pretty much joking as I know that would never happen for many reasons.  As a fan the guy in our bullpen that I would feel most comfortable closing games would be Kopech though.

[Tony]

6 minutes ago, RG23SoxFan said:

This series alone I didn't like a couple TLR's decisions.  When Marshall was able to escape the 8th on Friday night I was dumbfounded when he pitched the 9th.  Also as noted I didn't like bringing in Ruiz in today's game.  He has definitely done enough that I understand criticism coming from fans.  I don't care about all this unwritten rules garbage and players getting their feelings hurt or becoming distracted etc...  If these players can't perform because their manager is some old school guy then they are pretty mentally weak and probably won't win anything meaningful anyways.  

I don’t want to go down the whole unwritten rules rabbit hole again because we all beat it to death, but I think a lot of the discussion here came from a misunderstanding of what people were upset over, and it sort of relates to what we are discussing here. 
 

Yermin “ignoring” a sign from the coaching staff isn’t something 98% of fans here are going to agree with. That’s not good when a player does that. Again, I think almost everyone here believes if a player ignores a sign, that should be fixed because you can’t have that happening on a regular basis. If it’s a punishment, so be it. 
 

The issue most had is WHY LaRussa gave him the take sign, and then how he handled the “controversy” after. 1. He called for Yermin to take on 3-0 because of “sportsmanship” and “respecting the game of baseball.” That’s a load of shit to a lot of people, myself included. Still doesn’t make Yermin ignoring the sign Ok, but that’s not the type of manager I want coaching my team. Not when in Spring Training both the players AND Front Office were talking about having more killer instinct, wanting to step on people’s necks. 
2. It came to light because LaRussa awoke from his slumber on the bench and was visibility animated maybe for the first time this season when Yermin was rounding the bases. When the media asked LaRussa about his little “outburst,” the Sox manager had no issue calling his rookie clueless and went out of his way to apologize to a team this fan base absolutely hates. Apologized for hitting a home run. 
 

I don’t believe this weekend had anything to do with what happened in Minnesota. I think the Yankees are playing really good ball and the Sox have been playing a bit over their heads without two of their best players in the lineup. There will be better stretches than this, and there will 100% be worse. 

[ron jeremy]

1 minute ago, YourWhatHurts said:

A tie game in the 9th on the road is not a typical closer situation even though sometimes you see it.  Again we need 6 outs.  Can you really trust Hendriks for 6 outs?  Most closers go less than 2 IP per game.

Also Marshall came in today in the same situation and temporarily saved the game.  The one sorta-complaint I had watching it live was bringing in the garbage man to put the game out of reach.  Instead it actually worked.  We don't get to that spot if Marshall doesn't come through bigtime there.

I have more trust in him starting a clean 9th Than the situation he was put in today. You also have crochet and if need be kopech in extras. Get to extras with the weird extra inning rule and see what happens. At some point he will need to be trusted in those situations. Better to find out now. Its not unheard of to have a closer pitch in a non save situation. To assume he would be wild starting a clean inning is not fair. The 2 scenarios require two different mind sets. Closers are weird. You put them in best possible situation to succeed and that was not it

[hi8is]

We will never win again.

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

I don’t want to go down the whole unwritten rules rabbit hole again because we all beat it to death, but I think a lot of the discussion here came from a misunderstanding of what people were upset over, and it sort of relates to what we are discussing here. 
 

Yermin “ignoring” a sign from the coaching staff isn’t something 98% of fans here are going to agree with. That’s not good when a player does that. Again, I think almost everyone here believes if a player ignores a sign, that should be fixed because you can’t have that happening on a regular basis. If it’s a punishment, so be it. 
 

The issue most had is WHY LaRussa gave him the take sign, and then how he handled the “controversy” after. 1. He called for Yermin to take on 3-0 because of “sportsmanship” and “respecting the game of baseball.” That’s a load of shit to a lot of people, myself included. Still doesn’t make Yermin ignoring the sign Ok, but that’s not the type of manager I want coaching my team. Not when in Spring Training both the players AND Front Office were talking about having more killer instinct, wanting to step on people’s necks. 
2. It came to light because LaRussa awoke from his slumber on the bench and was visibility animated maybe for the first time this season when Yermin was rounding the bases. When the media asked LaRussa about his little “outburst,” the Sox manager had no issue calling his rookie clueless and went out of his way to apologize to a team this fan base absolutely hates. Apologized for hitting a home run. 
 

I don’t believe this weekend had anything to do with what happened in Minnesota. I think the Yankees are playing really good ball and the Sox have been playing a bit over their heads without two of their best players in the lineup. There will be better stretches than this, and there will 100% be worse. 

I also don’t necessarily think this weekend had anything to do with Tony’s handling of Yermin. This team hasn’t been playing great for two weeks. What is annoying is that we even have to consider whether or not the manager and the players have an issue with each other right now.

[RG23SoxFan]

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

I don’t want to go down the whole unwritten rules rabbit hole again because we all beat it to death, but I think a lot of the discussion here came from a misunderstanding of what people were upset over, and it sort of relates to what we are discussing here. 
 

Yermin “ignoring” a sign from the coaching staff isn’t something 98% of fans here are going to agree with. That’s not good when a player does that. Again, I think almost everyone here believes if a player ignores a sign, that should be fixed because you can’t have that happening on a regular basis. If it’s a punishment, so be it. 
 

The issue most had is WHY LaRussa gave him the take sign, and then how he handled the “controversy” after. 1. He called for Yermin to take on 3-0 because of “sportsmanship” and “respecting the game of baseball.” That’s a load of shit to a lot of people, myself included. Still doesn’t make Yermin ignoring the sign Ok, but that’s not the type of manager I want coaching my team. Not when in Spring Training both the players AND Front Office were talking about having more killer instinct, wanting to step on people’s necks. 
2. It came to light because LaRussa awoke from his slumber on the bench and was visibility animated maybe for the first time this season when Yermin was rounding the bases. When the media asked LaRussa about his little “outburst,” the Sox manager had no issue calling his rookie clueless and went out of his way to apologize to a team this fan base absolutely hates. Apologized for hitting a home run. 
 

I don’t believe this weekend had anything to do with what happened in Minnesota. I think the Yankees are playing really good ball and the Sox have been playing a bit over their heads without two of their best players in the lineup. There will be better stretches than this, and there will 100% be worse. 

I don't like how Larussa handled the situation at all.  He could have handled it in a way that it wouldn't even been a story.  I agree that their play this weekend had nothing to do with that whole situation.  To be a winning, successful team it doesn't require a lovefest environment. 

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

17 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I'm pretty sure JR isnt gonna be on board with 13m a year for 4 years for middle inning relief. 

And he isnt gonna want to hear about sunk costs either.

 

Crazy that we less than two months into the first year of Hendrick's contract and we are already looking for alternatives at closer. 

 

[RG23SoxFan]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

I also don’t necessarily think this weekend had anything to do with Tony’s handling of Yermin. This team hasn’t been playing great for two weeks. What is annoying is that we even have to consider whether or not the manager and the players have an issue with each other right now.

Does it matter if the manager and player has issues with each other?  If your a pitcher get hitters out, if you are a position player catch the ball and hit the ball, and if your the manager put your players in position to succeed.  This weekend not many can say they did this.

[SoCalChiSox]

3 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Crazy that we less than two months into the first year of Hendrick's contract and we are already looking for alternatives at closer. 

 

We need good LH bats more than anything. Relievers have alot of volatility. 

I'd like to buy low on Gavin Lux but I doubt the Dodgers are that stupid. 

[Dan of Steel]

A sweep at the hands of the Yankees with 2 of them coming off of blown relief. 

Beyond unacceptable. 

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

8 minutes ago, Dan of Steel said:

A sweep at the hands of the Yankees with 2 of them coming off of blown relief. 

Beyond unacceptable. 

The offense scored 5 runs over 3 games at Yankee Stadium. 

[almagest]

5 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

The offense scored 5 runs over 3 games at Yankee Stadium. 

4 of those came in one game. 1 run over 2 games before that. They're lucky they had a chance to win 2 of the 3.

[elrockinMT]

Does anyone other than me think all these crazy comments and complaints criticizing LaRussa and the gloom and doom panic fueled comments are just getting ridiculous? 

[tray]

As we know, Hendriks has been disappointing  at times and so has Bummer and most of the rest of the pen for that matter.  Even Cody Heuer has had some rough outings.

Not sure where Hahn can go in terms of potential acquisitions/trades to bolster the pen at this point but I am sure he is thinking about it.

Hopefully Katz can help each of them improve or at least become less predictable with what they throw in any count or situation.  Obviously walking people in critical situations doesn't work and we have seen that all too often.

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Hendricks being bad is all Tony's fault.

Hahn, to be more accurate.  Most of us saw this coming a mile away.  Whether it LaRussa’s move or not, Hahn is the one who signed off on it.

[flavum]

4 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

Does anyone other than me think all these crazy comments and complaints criticizing LaRussa and the gloom and doom panic fueled comments are just getting ridiculous? 

I’ll take his bad moves on a case by case basis. Minnesota was a bad look. Leaving Giolito and Foster in games too long were bad moves. I can’t blame him for every bad thing that happens. You have to use the roster, and you have to manage 162 in totality; not just every single game on its own. In the end, Tony will be judged in October because there’s no way this team doesn’t win the division.