"sticky substances"

[Dominikk85]

Was thinking about that after the Gallegos incident. I always thought every pitcher does that so just let them go and we have a level playing field but I listened to a podcast with eno sarris and eno said he spoke with some guys behind the szenes and it was no longer just good old pine tar but teams are experimenting with different substances, mixing stuff and even use different stuff on different fingers and achieving several hundred more RPM on their pitches. 

He even talked about minor league teams doing spin clinics where young pitchers are taught how to optimally add substances. 

I'm not worried so much about cheating but about this being bad for the game as hitters can't handle 3k RPM breaking balls and high spin fastballs thus increasing strikeouts and making games not easier on the eyes. 

I think we are a a point where the league needs to do something, either control the pitcher before every inning or maybe allow one standardized substance with moderate spin effect that everyone can use. 

What is your thought?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Dominikk85

[hogan873]

I don't know how to answer this.  Immediately I want to say ban all substances and enforce it.  But that would be difficult...and quite revealing.  I wonder how many pitchers use some sort of substance when pitching?  Or maybe the better question is, who doesn't?  I don't think approving one substance is the way to go.  That would be the MLB admitting that substances are used, and I don't think they want to do that.  I think right now, aside from hat cop Joe West, the issue is ignored.  That's not saying pitchers can use substances, but it's not saying they can't either.

Even with some sort of substance, it still takes incredible skill to pitch the way some of these guys do.  Banning all substances might level the playing field a bit, but you're still going to have guys who can throw some nasty shit and others who can only throw straight as an arrow.

[raBBit]

Some substances enhance grip (rosin, sunscreen, pinetar). Other substances alter spin rate significantly. 
 

Whatever happened to Gallegos yesterday was a Joe West work. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, raBBit said:

Some substances enhance grip (rosin, sunscreen, pinetar). Other substances alter spin rate significantly. 
 

Whatever happened to Gallegos yesterday was a Joe West work. 

I really don't understand why schildt thinks it's not the job of umpires to deal with foreign substances. The pitcher was asked to change hats not to leave the game.

[raBBit]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I really don't understand why schildt thinks it's not the job of umpires to deal with foreign substances. The pitcher was asked to change hats not to leave the game.

I was in between on Schlidt's reaction. I feel the fact that it was Joe West that started the drama gives his point a bit more credence. We've definitely seen a lot of guys with crap on their hats all year and no one has said anything or done anything about it. Hendriks has a big brown circle in the middle of his brim. In Gallegos case, it was pretty clearly rosin that caught the attention which is entirely legal.

I do think Schlidt's point of there being video of certain pitchers repeatedly going to the same part of their gloves, being unwilling to lick their fingers, etc. (Karinchak comes to mind) and nothing is done and then Gallegos (who pitched great with a substitute hat) gets singled out when he's probably not doing anything wrong. Either way Schlidt was backing his guy. I wish we had a manager who would do that. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

I was in between on Schlidt's reaction. I feel the fact that it was Joe West that started the drama gives his point a bit more credence. We've definitely seen a lot of guys with crap on their hats all year and no one has said anything or done anything about it. Hendriks has a big brown circle in the middle of his brim. In Gallegos case, it was pretty clearly rosin that caught the attention which is entirely legal.

I do think Schlidt's point of there being video of certain pitchers repeatedly going to the same part of their gloves, being unwilling to lick their fingers, etc. (Karinchak comes to mind) and nothing is done and then Gallegos (who pitched great with a substitute hat) gets singled out when he's probably not doing anything wrong. Either way Schlidt was backing his guy. I wish we had a manager who would do that. 

I would agree with the situation. It's the comments after the game that it isn't the job of the umpires. I'm not really sure whose job it is then. Does the league just pick out hats and gloves from video to confiscate?

[raBBit]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would agree with the situation. It's the comments after the game that it isn't the job of the umpires. I'm not really sure whose job it is then. Does the league just pick out hats and gloves from video to confiscate?

Yeah you're right about that. If not the umpires then who? I just don't get why Gallegos is one of the only to get called out.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Yeah you're right about that. If not the umpires then who? I just don't get why Gallegos is one of the only to get called out.

I'm not sure either. I didn't watch the game. Maybe he was obvious with going to it. Or maybe it was just a Joe West thing.

[raBBit]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'm not sure either. I didn't watch the game. Maybe he was obvious with going to it. Or maybe it was just a Joe West thing.

West called it out when Gallegos came to the mound. Gallegos didn't throw a pitch yet when West made him wear a different hat. 

[SpringfieldFan]

I say ban and enforce. If the pitchers are allowed to doctor the ball, the batters should in fairness be allowed to cork their bats, and we don't want that for obvious reasons.

[chw42]

Just now, SpringfieldFan said:

I say ban and enforce. If the pitchers are allowed to doctor the ball, the batters should in fairness be allowed to cork their bats, and we don't want that for obvious reasons.

All this talk about not enough offense and moving the mound back...but the easiest solution really is to make sure guys don't get crazy spin rates from whatever foreign substance they're using. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

West called it out when Gallegos came to the mound. Gallegos didn't throw a pitch yet when West made him wear a different hat. 

I wonder if he saw him doctoring the hat in the dugout. Maybe the MLB is telling them to watch? It just seems weird for how to police it.

[Paulie4Pres]

3 hours ago, raBBit said:

I was in between on Schlidt's reaction. I feel the fact that it was Joe West that started the drama gives his point a bit more credence. We've definitely seen a lot of guys with crap on their hats all year and no one has said anything or done anything about it. Hendriks has a big brown circle in the middle of his brim. In Gallegos case, it was pretty clearly rosin that caught the attention which is entirely legal.

I do think Schlidt's point of there being video of certain pitchers repeatedly going to the same part of their gloves, being unwilling to lick their fingers, etc. (Karinchak comes to mind) and nothing is done and then Gallegos (who pitched great with a substitute hat) gets singled out when he's probably not doing anything wrong. Either way Schlidt was backing his guy. I wish we had a manager who would do that. 

I'm not sure how you determined that it was pretty clearly rosin. The rosin that is legal is that from the rosin bag. That's not what it looked like to me. What was on his hat was shiny. It was not white.

 

 

[Marky Mark]

Whatever they do, they just need to be consistent.

[bmags]

I feel like pitchers should be allowed something to help with grip, just choose what it is and regulate it. I don't really think football would be better if we banned receivers from wearing gloves. Give each pitcher their allotted container of pine tar each game. 

Getting tired of this stuff. Feels like the game just hates itself right now. Figure out what the boundaries are to baseball and let the players play within them, tired of the constant shaming of the players and game when it leads to some gameplay or time consideration people don't like. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I feel like pitchers should be allowed something to help with grip, just choose what it is and regulate it. I don't really think football would be better if we banned receivers from wearing gloves. Give each pitcher their allotted container of pine tar each game. 

Getting tired of this stuff. Feels like the game just hates itself right now. Figure out what the boundaries are to baseball and let the players play within them, tired of the constant shaming of the players and game when it leads to some gameplay or time consideration people don't like. 

There's nothing wrong with telling players to change hats. Maybe I'm optimistic but maybe by confiscating this type of equipment they can settle on a standardized substance that can somehow be easily identified. 

This will be the next step once theyegalize a substance they will need an easy way to identify it as pitchers will continue to try to disguise their substance as the legal one.

This problem will never end as pitchers as well as hitters will always try to get an advantage legal or not.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

There's nothing wrong with telling players to change hats. Maybe I'm optimistic but maybe by confiscating this type of equipment they can settle on a standardized substance that can somehow be easily identified. 

This will be the next step once theyegalize a substance they will need an easy way to identify it as pitchers will continue to try to disguise their substance as the legal one.

This problem will never end as pitchers as well as hitters will always try to get an advantage legal or not.

I don't think the changing hats thing is that big of a deal, I think the "it's illegal but we mostly don't care but also announce very public investigations about it to tarnish star players" part of it is what I hate. The issue is they take a "speed limit" approach to everything in baseball, where a little bit is okay but a lot is too much, but if everyones doing a lot then it's too hard for them to enforce still so they just snipe at the players and randomly make examples out of people.

[tray]

Here are a few interesting videos for those interested in baseball history that touch on the topic.:

Joe Niekro talks about ball scuffing

Gaylord Perry

Hoyt Wilhelm

 

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't think the changing hats thing is that big of a deal, I think the "it's illegal but we mostly don't care but also announce very public investigations about it to tarnish star players" part of it is what I hate. The issue is they take a "speed limit" approach to everything in baseball, where a little bit is okay but a lot is too much, but if everyones doing a lot then it's too hard for them to enforce still so they just snipe at the players and randomly make examples out of people.

Its the "example" stage.  And of course it was Joe West taking the law into is own hands, who else would it be?

[Paulie4Pres]

Why not just make the rosin bag the only acceptable substance and be done with it? Seems simple enough to me.

[ptatc]

48 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Why not just make the rosin bag the only acceptable substance and be done with it? Seems simple enough to me.

Because it's not sticky enough to get a proper grip and they say there would be many hit batters and wild pitches if they do use "a little something else."

[joejoesox]

 

[joejoesox]

 

[joejoesox]

26 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Because it's not sticky enough to get a proper grip and they say there would be many hit batters and wild pitches if they do use "a little something else."

looks like most pitchers are using at bare minimum, sunscreen+rosin+sweat, other guys like Garrett Cole are using Pine Tar or the rumored shit from his Houston days (Melted Coca Cola+Pine Tar)

[Dominikk85]

10 hours ago, hogan873 said:

I don't know how to answer this.  Immediately I want to say ban all substances and enforce it.  But that would be difficult...and quite revealing.  I wonder how many pitchers use some sort of substance when pitching?  Or maybe the better question is, who doesn't?  I don't think approving one substance is the way to go.  That would be the MLB admitting that substances are used, and I don't think they want to do that.  I think right now, aside from hat cop Joe West, the issue is ignored.  That's not saying pitchers can use substances, but it's not saying they can't either.

Even with some sort of substance, it still takes incredible skill to pitch the way some of these guys do.  Banning all substances might level the playing field a bit, but you're still going to have guys who can throw some nasty shit and others who can only throw straight as an arrow.

MLB has said they are analyzing balls and monitoring unusual spin rates. 

 

I think They plan to do something like the Mitchell report where they are doing a secret study as a warning and then start real testing the next year so everyone has the chance to get off the juice. 

 

So it might be this year they are warning guys and occasionally busting one and then next year start real enforcement