Limit of 13 pitchers back in place next season...

[caulfield12]

MLB Planning To Reinstitute Pitcher Limit On Active Rosters In 2022
 

Major League Baseball will again limit teams to carrying thirteen pitchers on the active roster when the 2022 season begins, reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today. MLB instituted a 13-pitcher limit in February 2020, but the rule has been waived in each of the past two seasons as part of the MLB-MLBPA agreements on COVID-19 health and safety protocols. Interestingly, the 13-pitcher limit may just be the beginning. The league is open to capping the number of hurlers on an active roster at twelve or perhaps eleven further down the line, per Nightengale.

Teams have become more aggressive in deploying relievers in recent seasons. Fresher arms have contributed to increased velocity across the board. The league is averaging 93.4 MPH on fastballs, 84.5 MPH on sliders and 79.5 MPH on curveballs this season, per FanGraphs. In 2002- the first year for which FanGraphs has pitch data- those offerings averaged 89.0 MPH, 80.4 MPH and 75.0 MPH, respectively.

More frequent reliever usage isn’t the only reason pitch speeds have dramatically accelerated in recent years; teams are also selecting for and training velocity in a more targeted way than ever. Nevertheless, there seems to be merit to the belief that shorter per-game stints for pitchers has some role in the uptick. By limiting the number of relievers a team can carry at any given time, the hope is teams will be compelled to stick with pitchers (predominantly starters) longer in games, thereby leveling off or decreasing the continued improvement in the quality of pitchers’ repertoires.

That’s all done in an attempt to curb the strikeouts that have become so prevalent in today’s game. 
 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/05/mlb-planning-to-reinstitute-pitcher-limit-on-active-rosters-in-2022.html

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by caulfield12

[WookiesOnRitalin]

So one of the solutions for decreasing ball speed is just to make sure the guys who are pitching to throw more, more often, and likely getting more injured? 

How about pitch minimums for relievers and starters? Or perhaps inning minimums? I think there are other ways to handle the problem then cutting the amount of the staff on the roster. That seems stupid. 

[ChiSoxJon]

How about we leave the game alone the way it was for decades?

[Tony]

19 minutes ago, ChiSoxJon said:

How about we leave the game alone the way it was for decades?

Because it’s a completely different game than it was in 1970?

[CentralChamps21]

If average pitch velocity is a problem, I'd rather move the mound back than dangerously limit the number of pitchers on a roster.

This would force teams to play musical relievers between the majors and AAA.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

If average pitch velocity is a problem, I'd rather move the mound back than dangerously limit the number of pitchers on a roster.

This would force teams to play musical relievers between the majors and AAA.

Changes too many angles...more injuries, better to lower mound than move back.

[Kyyle23]

If they are worried about the pitchers being too good, maybe let's stop some of them from using all the stickum products they can and see what happens

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

If they are worried about the pitchers being too good, maybe let's stop some of them from using all the stickum products they can and see what happens

Lester Hayes doesn’t like this comment.

[Kyyle23]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Lester Hayes doesn’t like this comment.

What does this mean

[MackowiakYakYak]

16 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Changes too many angles...more injuries, better to lower mound than move back.

Without any science, the opposite seems true. A higher mound let’s the pitcher use the momentum in his lower half to create more velocity. Pitchers would still be going full intensity but might have to use more arm to maintain or recover their velocity. Velocity would still be king especially for young relievers that might give up their arm for the chance to reach the majors

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Changes too many angles...more injuries, better to lower mound than move back.

How would it change anything in that way. 

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How would it change anything in that way. 

If you move back the mound...it changes every single aspect of the game.

Do we want to see more bunting?   More stolen bases?   Different angles for the pitcher throwing to bases...holding runners on, etc.   

[YourWhatHurts]

All the league has done over the years is work to make the game easier for hitters and harder for pitchers.  So when pitchers evolve accordingly, then it becomes a problem for the league again.

Fuck manfred and fuck Theo.  I never hated Epstein before but fuck you.  Thanks for Cease and Eloy. You are a fraud who obviously knows nothing and pitching and your horseshit drafting and development record with the Cubs is the reason their franchise is in trouble.  But yeah thanks for doing Cease for Q you fucking dipshit.

[YourWhatHurts]

BTW I think strikeouts are fun as hell.  Watching dominant pitching is exciting.  

There's nothing wrong with the game other than this constant stream of unnecessary rules they keep adding to it to try to make it into something else and then all the trash they have in the league offices and the owners boxes.

[YourWhatHurts]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If you move back the mound...it changes every single aspect of the game.

Do we want to see more bunting?   More stolen bases?   Different angles for the pitcher throwing to bases...holding runners on, etc.   

Stone blows a lot of dumb hot air about the artistry in the game being on the defensive side of the ball.  Only problem is that he is referring entirely to the position players reacting to balls hit at them, not the pitcher and catcher.

What a dipshit Stone is on this also.  The greatest artistry and easiest place to find mastery is looking at what the pitcher and catcher are doing to the hitter and what the manager is trying to do to the hitter via defensive positioning and then what the hitter is trying to do in return.  The fact that a pitcher like Stone would ever say anything so stupid is outrageous.  If there was a pitchers union he should be banned from it.

Hitting MLB pitching has always been one of the very hardest things to do in professional sports.  Literally it is 9 position players vs. 1 hitter.  If you don't love the game being that way then GTFO of it.  Go watch bowling or something.

[southsideirish71]

18 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If you move back the mound...it changes every single aspect of the game.

 Do we want to see more bunting?   More stolen bases?   Different angles for the pitcher throwing to bases...holding runners on, etc.   

Its a foot.  Its not really going to change those angles all that much.  I just think allowing breaking pitches to get one more foot to eat is going to have the exact opposite effect.  

[Timmy U]

40 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

What does this mean

Lester Hayes was a HoF football person who made a lot of interceptions in part because, like many Raiders of his time, he practically coated his entire body in Stickem.

[YourWhatHurts]

Hitters can make more contact more if they want to.  Pitchers can put the ball in play more if they want to.

The problem is that over the years as the bats and balls have changed to increasingly favor offense, so have the ballpark dimensions changed by removing taller walls, removing foul territory, and bringing the OF fences in.  

As a result, hitters want to hit the ball hard in the air and want more than anything to hit it out.  And pitchers are afraid of contact because otherwise harmless flyouts, lineouts or doubles are HRs.  

Their changes have already pushed players like Buehrle and Moyer out of the game.   After Wright went out and RA Dickey retired is there even a knuckler anymore?  You can't walk anyone and the more you walk hitters the more you need a strikeout to bail your self out of the situation.

The league built all of this with their constant prioritization of offense over pitching and defense.  And the way pitchers have adapted in return has been fun to watch.

If you want to police the stickem that is fine.  But I don't see anything wrong with it.  As long as it is equal rules for everyone it is fine.  Ultimately the pitchers need to be able to grip the ball well enough to keep it around the zone and keep it safer for batters.  Maybe there should be a replacement substance or whatever. 

Leave the mound where it is and quit bitching about the strikeouts.  Launch angle and power pitching is how you play bandbox baseball.

[Timmy U]

3 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Hitters can make more contact more if they want to.  Pitchers can put the ball in play more if they want to.

The problem is that over the years as the bats and balls have changed to increasingly favor offense, so have the ballpark dimensions changed by removing taller walls, removing foul territory, and bringing the OF fences in.  

As a result, hitters want to hit the ball hard in the air and want more than anything to hit it out.  And pitchers are afraid of contact because otherwise harmless flyouts, lineouts or doubles are HRs.  

Their changes have already pushed players like Buehrle and Moyer out of the game.   After Wright went out and RA Dickey retired is there even a knuckler anymore?  You can't walk anyone and the more you walk hitters the more you need a strikeout to bail your self out of the situation.

The league built all of this with their constant prioritization of offense over pitching and defense.  And the way pitchers have adapted in return has been fun to watch.

If you want to police the stickem that is fine.  But I don't see anything wrong with it.  As long as it is equal rules for everyone it is fine.  Ultimately the pitchers need to be able to grip the ball well enough to keep it around the zone and keep it safer for batters.  Maybe there should be a replacement substance or whatever. 

Leave the mound where it is and quit bitching about the strikeouts.  Launch angle and power pitching is how you play bandbox baseball.

Awesome analysis.  Home runs are like triples in the NBA:  rulemakers want there to be more than one way to win, but there isn’t.  Look at Sox record when they homer and when they don’t.  If you pitch to put the ball in play and hit to get singles, you will lose a lot of games.

[YourWhatHurts]

35 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Awesome analysis.  Home runs are like triples in the NBA:  rulemakers want there to be more than one way to win, but there isn’t.  Look at Sox record when they homer and when they don’t.  If you pitch to put the ball in play and hit to get singles, you will lose a lot of games.

This is exactly it and the NBA comparison is spot on.

The league office has their own agenda however and they are only interested in making the game into something that they believe is more profitable. 

Case in point: foul territory.  I don't hear anything about adding foul territory but if you did, theoretically it would favor the pitchers by giving them more outs via popups and also favor the hitters by giving them more room to run on line drives.  There would be many more triples and also lots more doubles for guys with merely average or just below average speed.   Pitchers would probably pitch more toward aerial outs and be less afraid of the zone.  And contact for hitters on balls inside the park and fair would be more productive.  Lots of singles aren't singles anymore.

But doing that "removes fans from the game" as though there is some inherent baseball principle that says if the fans can't be behind 3 foot tall walls just outside of the baseline and reaching over into the field of play then it's not baseball anymore.  

But really, going back to more foul territory is fair to the pitchers and hitters, disfavors popups, favors line drives, favors speed, favors contact, favors pitching inside of the strike zone.  And it doesn't disrespect the integrity or history of the game.  But it does however challenge the aesthetic images of an intimate (read: more profitable) fan experience at the ballpark which is a purpose which the trash in the league offices hold far dearer to their hearts than the fundamental play structure of the historical game.

[chitownsportsfan]

Nobody wants more foul ground because it pushes fans away from the action, literally.

The thing to do is lower the mound and enforce the foreign substance rules.  Maybe try the latter first in MLB and the former in the low minors first.

Moving the mound would be like raising the basket in hoops will never happen and never should happen.

[Tony]

4 hours ago, ChiSoxJon said:

How about we leave the game alone the way it was for decades?

I already responded to this, but I just want to add some context:

So far in 2021, there have been 1570 games played. The league slash line as a whole is .236/.312/.393

In 2005 (relevant White Sox year) the league slash line was .264/.330/.419

2021....average hits allowed per game is 7.78

2005.....average hits allowed per game was 9.05

2021....average runs allowed per game is 4.43

2005....average runs allowed per game was 4.59

2021....average K's per game is 8.98

2005....average K's per game was 6.30

(Should also be noted in 2018, it was the first time in baseball history that there were more K's on average per game (8.48) than hits per game (8.44). That stayed true in 2019-2020-2021 and the margin is getting larger each season)

2021....average HR's per game is 1.13

2005...average HR's per game was 1.03

2021....average game time is 3 hours, 7 minutes

2005...average game time was 2 hours, 49 minutes

 

The game is fairly different from even 2005, and in my personal opinion lower batting average, lower slugging percentage, less runs and a longer game time isn't where I want the sport to head. I don't know what the right solution is, but I agree with most that with pitchers seemingly being able to doctor the ball at their choosing is wrong and should be stopped, especially with the trends we are seeing. See if that changes anything, and go from there. 

[South Side Hit Men]

Peter Gammons had a great article regarding injuries. The primary culprits are:

1. Hitters replacing typical baseball activity with ridiculous max effort launch angle swings (oblique injuries the primary result).

2. Emphasis on max pitch velocity vs. the craft of pitching.

https://theathletic.com/2612663/2021/05/27/gammons-the-injury-epidemic-is-robbing-baseball-of-its-stars-and-its-causes-run-deep/?amp#click=https://t.co/MrAy6mVGom

In terms of “fixing” the game, a few easy fixes are:

1. Universal DH (prevents pitcher injuries, improves offense).

2. 20 second pitch clock (prevents pitchers ramping up for max velocity, and speeds game).

3. 1B Softball Safety bag, larger 2B and 3B bags (reduces collusions and base running injuries).

4. Lower the pitching mound (far better than pushing back the number, which has a good chance of backfiring based on additional injuries and unintended consequences of additional pitch break).

Harder fix: What to do about foreign substances (confiscate balls, lab testing, significant suspensions).

[ChiSoxJon]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

I already responded to this, but I just want to add some context:

So far in 2021, there have been 1570 games played. The league slash line as a whole is .236/.312/.393

In 2005 (relevant White Sox year) the league slash line was .264/.330/.419

2021....average hits allowed per game is 7.78

2005.....average hits allowed per game was 9.05

2021....average runs allowed per game is 4.43

2005....average runs allowed per game was 4.59

2021....average K's per game is 8.98

2005....average K's per game was 6.30

(Should also be noted in 2018, it was the first time in baseball history that there were more K's on average per game (8.48) than hits per game (8.44). That stayed true in 2019-2020-2021 and the margin is getting larger each season)

2021....average HR's per game is 1.13

2005...average HR's per game was 1.03

2021....average game time is 3 hours, 7 minutes

2005...average game time was 2 hours, 49 minutes

 

The game is fairly different from even 2005, and in my personal opinion lower batting average, lower slugging percentage, less runs and a longer game time isn't where I want the sport to head. I don't know what the right solution is, but I agree with most that with pitchers seemingly being able to doctor the ball at their choosing is wrong and should be stopped, especially with the trends we are seeing. See if that changes anything, and go from there. 

It's almost like an array of rule changes under the worst commissioner of all time have worsened the game

[tray]

Here is an old article where the author recounts the 1968 rule change concerning mound height.:

1968 Rule change reducing mound height to 10"

I think that prior to discussing possible rule changes, everyone has to agree on what problem they see that needs to be addressed. is it the fact that the game has moved  into all-or-nothing at-bats - strike-out or Home Run?

As a fan, I I like seeing the home run and I also like strike-outs, so I personally do not see a reason to change things.  I do however, acknowledge that all-or-nothing at-bats and defensive shifts take away from excitement of seeing balls hit in play. Therefore, I could see experimenting in the Minors with a lower mound, perhaps lowered from  10" to 6".

At the end of the day, the game has had many changes over the years so I do not think anything is set in Stone. Look at the different configurations of the parks and home run distance...look at the Green Monster or the wall of weeds at Wrigley.