Hendriks AL Reliever of the Month

[southsider2k5]

 

[ChiSox59]

I thought Soxtalk said this guy sucked? 

[CentralChamps21]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I thought Soxtalk said this guy sucked? 

Nobody said he sucked. People said that he wasn't enough of an upgrade over in house options to justify the money that could have gone to a better outfielder or better starting pitcher. I was on the fence. I saw both sides of the argument.

[Two-Gun Pete]

35 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Nobody said he sucked. People said that he wasn't enough of an upgrade over in house options to justify the money that could have gone to a better outfielder or better starting pitcher. 

This. Exactly this.

I would have preferred the cash being invested elsewhere for this years team. At the same time, buying a closer on the wrong side of 32 hasn't exactly worked out for this team over the years.

That said, congrats to him on this honor. Here's hoping he can keep this up and live up to the contract.

[KrankinSox]

This bullpen would be a complete disaster if we didn't have Liam.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Nobody said he sucked. People said that he wasn't enough of an upgrade over in house options to justify the money that could have gone to a better outfielder or better starting pitcher. I was on the fence. I saw both sides of the argument.

It was a tongue in cheek comment.  I wasn't being fully serious.  But there were plenty of people on here that said he was a waste of money, terrible allocation of resources, stuff looked bad, couldn't pitch in the Cell, etc., etc..

$13.5M AAV was never a poor use of resources for an elite closer.  Imagine how things would looks right now with Heuer, Bummer or (god forbid) Colome as the closer.  All of those guys have been somewhere between terrible and underwhelming so far this year. The Sox made the right call.  The people that bitched about overpaying for Hendriks are the same people about the Sox being cheap and never signing anyone.  Can't have it both ways.  

[wegner]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I thought Soxtalk said this guy sucked? 

Hey, I thought what was said in the GameThread stays in the GameThread.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

27 minutes ago, KrankinSox said:

This bullpen would be a complete disaster if we didn't have Liam.

Ain't that the truth. Those thinking Bummer or Heuer could've stepped up would've been in for a rude awakening. Maybe there was a free agent performing well now that could've been had for cheaper but someone would have to point him out to me.

[Two-Gun Pete]

47 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

It was a tongue in cheek comment.  I wasn't being fully serious.  But there were plenty of people on here that said he was a waste of money, terrible allocation of resources, stuff looked bad, couldn't pitch in the Cell, etc., etc..

$13.5M AAV was never a poor use of resources for an elite closer.  Imagine how things would looks right now with Heuer, Bummer or (god forbid) Colome as the closer.  All of those guys have been somewhere between terrible and underwhelming so far this year. The Sox made the right call.  The people that bitched about overpaying for Hendriks are the same people about the Sox being cheap and never signing anyone.  Can't have it both ways.  

So, let's summarize your posts:

1. You engaged in hyperbole in saying that people said he sucked, but later you "weren't serious."

2. You deliberately understated Hendriks' contract; Spotrac has his AAV as $18MM, not "$13.5M AAV." (But hey, who's counting, amirite?)

3. Your next bit of hyperbole is that anyone who points out that overpaying for a closer hasn't worked out for this team, and maybe there are other needs are, each and every one, just "bitching" about the Sox being "cheap." (And not that an AAV of $18MM could be used elsewhere, because in your words, these people are only "bitching.")

 

Did I get your posts right?

Edited June 2, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So, let's summarize your posts:

1. You engaged in hyperbole in saying that people said he sucked, but later you "weren't serious."

2. You deliberately understated Hendriks' contract; Spotrac has his AAV as $18MM, not "$13.5M AAV." (But hey, who's counting, amirite?)

3. Your next bit of hyperbole is that anyone who points out that overpaying for a closer hasn't worked out for this team, and maybe there are other needs are, each and every one, just "bitching" about the Sox being "cheap." (And not that an AAV of $18MM could be used elsewhere, because in your words, these people are only "bitching.")

 

Did I get your posts right?

There is a legitimate reason for this if you understand his contract structure, which is not conventional.

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

It was a tongue in cheek comment.  I wasn't being fully serious.  But there were plenty of people on here that said he was a waste of money, terrible allocation of resources, stuff looked bad, couldn't pitch in the Cell, etc., etc..

$13.5M AAV was never a poor use of resources for an elite closer.  Imagine how things would looks right now with Heuer, Bummer or (god forbid) Colome as the closer.  All of those guys have been somewhere between terrible and underwhelming so far this year. The Sox made the right call.  The people that bitched about overpaying for Hendriks are the same people about the Sox being cheap and never signing anyone.  Can't have it both ways.  

It’s all bitching.  Case closed

[ChiSox59]

39 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So, let's summarize your posts:

1. You engaged in hyperbole in saying that people said he sucked, but later you "weren't serious."

2. You deliberately understated Hendriks' contract; Spotrac has his AAV as $18MM, not "$13.5M AAV." (But hey, who's counting, amirite?)

3. Your next bit of hyperbole is that anyone who points out that overpaying for a closer hasn't worked out for this team, and maybe there are other needs are, each and every one, just "bitching" about the Sox being "cheap." (And not that an AAV of $18MM could be used elsewhere, because in your words, these people are only "bitching.")

 

Did I get your posts right?

Lol - love a good fact checking post that can't even get the facts right.

Spend a little some more time studying Hendriks' Sportrac page, and maybe you'll be able to grasp the $13.5M AAV.  Which is correct, btw.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Lol - love a good fact checking post that can't even get the facts right.

Spend a little some more time studying Hendriks' Sportrac page, and maybe you'll be able to grasp the $13.5M AAV.  Which is correct, btw.  

Sure. Just for you, I checked This link, which says he signed a 3 year, $54MM contract.

$54MM ÷ 3 = $18MM AAV.

But hey, who's counting, amirite?

[Two-Gun Pete]

37 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is a legitimate reason for this if you understand his contract structure, which is not conventional.

Totally understand this.

But, no one said he sucked, his contract is indeed 3 years, $54MM, according to Spotrac, and no one who hates big contracts to closers is "just bitching" about JR being "cheap."

Other than that, those were good posts by ChiSox we enjoyed together as fans.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Totally understand this.

But, no one said he sucked, his contract is indeed 3 years, $54MM, according to Spotrac, and no one who hates big contracts to closers is "just bitching" about JR being "cheap."

Other than that, those were good posts by ChiSox we enjoyed together as fans.

Its actually not 3/54 in any aspect.  If he stays 4 years it is 4/54.  If he only stays 3 years, the last $15 million pays out as $1.5 million a year (no interest) over 10 years making it a 13/54.  The accepted present value in that case is $51.67m.

[ChiSox59]

41 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Sure. Just for you, I checked This link, which says he signed a 3 year, $54MM contract.

$54MM ÷ 3 = $18MM AAV.

But hey, who's counting, amirite?

The contract is by all intents and purposes a 4 year $54M deal.  I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

$54M divided by 4 = $13.5M AAV.  

Not complicated.  

[ChiSox59]

43 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Totally understand this.

But, no one said he sucked, his contract is indeed 3 years, $54MM, according to Spotrac, and no one who hates big contracts to closers is "just bitching" about JR being "cheap."

Other than that, those were good posts by ChiSox we enjoyed together as fans.

I wasn't even referring to you specifically, but since you seem to take this Hendriks talk so personally, I figured I'd check out your posting history on Liam:

From a game thread, so I can't quote it, but here's a gem:

"I can think of 55 million reasons, over 486 games why a 32 year old who was ridden like a rented mule shouldn't have been this team's most expensive acquisition this  offseason. His value was inflated, by insane usage patterns that included Hendriks pitching in 75 games in 2019, for the purposes of a pump-and-dump.

What's worse, is if this is supposed to be what Hendriks is NOW, how much shittier will he be at age 33 or 34, when Father Time just curb-stomps him? [Just think: An $18 MILLION future middle reliever can keep this org from landing a SP to replace Lynn or Rodon next offseason.]

OTOH, I can think of 6.25 million reasons, over a mere 162 games, why Colome would have been the superior FIT for this roster. [Given the self-imposed financial constraints.] There are/were other reasons why Colome would have fit better, if you count up all the closers-in-waiting that populate the MLB roster, and in MiLB for this org."

A few more (there are plenty more, but I got bored reading Liam slander);  

On 5/6/2021 at 10:36 AM, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed, and thank you for stating what I've been stating. In an organization that has financial constraints, asset allocation matters MORE than for the richer orgs.

And I agree that Hendriks' value was bloated by Oakland overusing him. What scares me is that if this is what he is NOW, how much shittier will Hendriks be in a year or two from now?

Sure, Hendriks is and was better than Colome. But 1 year/$6.25MM sounds a fuckton better than 3 and $54MM. I share your hope that Hendriks can get his shit sorted. I just hope that this org doesn't start throwing good money after bad at this point.

 

On 4/14/2021 at 7:17 AM, Two-Gun Pete said:

The short nature of the season, and the extremely reduced travel (especially for ALW division teams) makes that hard to gauge. Especially for relief pitchers, IMO.

Would Hendriks have continued on that pace, or would he shit his pants later in the season, as he's done here? Who knows?

We DO know that Oakland (based on the book Moneyball) does not stupidly squander resources on acquiring a closer. Yet, they seem to routinely have good ones. Given that Hendriks was about to be a FA, Oakland likely rode him like a rented mule in 2020, knowing that any overuse issues would be someone else's problems.

At the same time, dumber FOs squander resources (high draft picks and FA dollars) on closers, when their teams have other needs.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 4:25 PM, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Hendriks has had fWAR that exceeded the league average for closers once in his career. The league average is ~1.8; he had 3.8 in 2019 in pitching-friendly Oakland in 2019. [I draw no conclusions about the anomalous 2020 season.] But we've seen this movie before where the SOX stoopidly acquire a closer from Oakland, only for that closer to immediately shit his pants and fuck over the SOX.

I'm not convinced that Hendriks is a premier closer any more, or if he benefitted from having pitched in a pitcher's paradise in Oakland. I also don't know that he was the best use of funds, since we're a SP injury or SP bout of ineffectiveness away from having both Cease and Lopez walking the yard 2 days out of 5. There is/was some surplus inventory in the BP. There isn't much surplus in the rotation, IMO.

 

2. I don't/didn't view the budget decision as "Colome or Eaton," since they are differing components of the roster. Rather, I viewed it as:

"Hendriks or Colome, PLUS another FA SP, PLUS a FA reliever, PLUS Cease unfucking himself in Charlotte, PLUS being able to play the service time or extension game with Crochet." Or,

"Hendriks vs Colome, + extra money to blow at the TDL or waiver deadline."

 

Regardless, Hendriks hasn't lived up to his obese contract thus far, and I didn't like the idea of using such a large portion of the budget on a closer. He certainly hasn't proven to be three times the pitcher that Colome is, regardless of how one rates Colome.

 

On 5/6/2021 at 10:36 AM, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed, and thank you for stating what I've been stating. In an organization that has financial constraints, asset allocation matters MORE than for the richer orgs.

And I agree that Hendriks' value was bloated by Oakland overusing him. What scares me is that if this is what he is NOW, how much shittier will Hendriks be in a year or two from now?

Sure, Hendriks is and was better than Colome. But 1 year/$6.25MM sounds a fuckton better than 3 and $54MM. I share your hope that Hendriks can get his shit sorted. I just hope that this org doesn't start throwing good money after bad at this point.

[Two-Gun Pete]

44 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its actually not 3/54 in any aspect.  If he stays 4 years it is 4/54.  If he only stays 3 years, the last $15 million pays out as $1.5 million a year (no interest) over 10 years making it a 13/54.  The accepted present value in that case is $51.67m.

Its debatable as to what he will be by age 35. Every source I've looked at, to include spotrac, CBS, NBCsports, and ESPN, and others call it "3 years, $54MM."

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Its debatable as to what he will be by age 35. Every source I've looked at, to include spotrac, CBS, NBCsports, and ESPN, and others call it "3 years, $54MM."

That's why I put both scenarios.  The contract agencies can call it whatever they want, but if you look at the actual contract here, there is no scenario where the Sox pay $54 million over 3 years.  it either happens over 4 years, or 13 years.  That might be a luxury tax rate or something like that, but for the sake of the actual payroll there are exactly zero scenarios where this is $18 million a year over 3 years.  None.

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I wasn't even referring to you specifically, but since you seem to take this Hendriks talk so personally, I figured I'd check out your posting history on Liam:

From a game thread, so I can't quote it, but here's a gem:

"I can think of 55 million reasons, over 486 games why a 32 year old who was ridden like a rented mule shouldn't have been this team's most expensive acquisition this  offseason. His value was inflated, by insane usage patterns that included Hendriks pitching in 75 games in 2019, for the purposes of a pump-and-dump.

What's worse, is if this is supposed to be what Hendriks is NOW, how much shittier will he be at age 33 or 34, when Father Time just curb-stomps him? [Just think: An $18 MILLION future middle reliever can keep this org from landing a SP to replace Lynn or Rodon next offseason.]

OTOH, I can think of 6.25 million reasons, over a mere 162 games, why Colome would have been the superior FIT for this roster. [Given the self-imposed financial constraints.] There are/were other reasons why Colome would have fit better, if you count up all the closers-in-waiting that populate the MLB roster, and in MiLB for this org."

A few more (there are plenty more, but I got bored reading Liam slander);  

There is no "Liam slander," any more than anyone said he sucks. I (and others) have said he's good. I (and others) have said that overspending on a closer is dumb. And in those posts you quoted, thats exactly what was said.

Well that, and that no one is "just bitching" about "being cheap." 

I mean, just look at the "Liam slander." I mean, clutch your pearls!

"Sure, Hendriks is and was better than Colome."

Edited June 2, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's why I put both scenarios.  The contract agencies can call it whatever they want, but if you look at the actual contract here, there is no scenario where the Sox pay $54 million over 3 years.  it either happens over 4 years, or 13 years.  That might be a luxury tax rate or something like that, but for the sake of the actual payroll there are exactly zero scenarios where this is $18 million a year over 3 years.  None.

Good to know.

Its still a bad idea to overspend on a closer. And, I'll write it again that I hope he keeps this up.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

39 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I wasn't even referring to you specifically, but since you seem to take this Hendriks talk so personally, I figured I'd check out your posting history on Liam:

From a game thread, so I can't quote it, but here's a gem:

"I can think of 55 million reasons, over 486 games why a 32 year old who was ridden like a rented mule shouldn't have been this team's most expensive acquisition this  offseason. His value was inflated, by insane usage patterns that included Hendriks pitching in 75 games in 2019, for the purposes of a pump-and-dump.

What's worse, is if this is supposed to be what Hendriks is NOW, how much shittier will he be at age 33 or 34, when Father Time just curb-stomps him? [Just think: An $18 MILLION future middle reliever can keep this org from landing a SP to replace Lynn or Rodon next offseason.]

OTOH, I can think of 6.25 million reasons, over a mere 162 games, why Colome would have been the superior FIT for this roster. [Given the self-imposed financial constraints.] There are/were other reasons why Colome would have fit better, if you count up all the closers-in-waiting that populate the MLB roster, and in MiLB for this org."

A few more (there are plenty more, but I got bored reading Liam slander);  

 

 

 

Dang... You didn't need to roast him like that.. Someone call to check to see if he is okay.

[Blackout Friday]

9 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Nobody said he sucked. People said that he wasn't enough of an upgrade over in house options to justify the money that could have gone to a better outfielder or better starting pitcher. I was on the fence. I saw both sides of the argument.

Some people post irrational things because it’s cathartic

Edited June 3, 2021 by Blackout Friday

[hogan873]

This thread is prime SoxTalk.  Starts as a recognition for the closer being named the AL reliever of the month, shifts to conversations about his worth, and quickly descends into electronic b****-slapping.

[Chisoxfn]

All I know is he has been electric of late, with his slider being good enough - it is keeping hitters honest on that heater which is lethal. Love it - and I wasn’t a huge fan of the move, but turned into a Liam defender early in the season after seeing how good that heater was first hand. 
 

Dude is nasty!