Madrigal goes on 60 day DL, Hamstring tear: Goodwin recalled

[The Grinder]

So the Sept 19 date will work to our advantage assuming the stars align....:)

[tray]

Madrigal was a perfect fit in our line-up..a high on-base, contact hitter.  His spot in the line-up will now be another black hole.

If Vaughn and Mercedes don't pick it up substantially Sox will not score enough runs to remain competitive.

If the White Sox win the Division with the current line-up,  LaRussa will be Manager of the year and he will deserve it.

[hi8is]

4 hours ago, tray said:

Madrigal was a perfect fit in our line-up..a high on-base, contact hitter.  His spot in the line-up will now be another black hole.

If Vaughn and Mercedes don't pick it up substantially Sox will not score enough runs to remain competitive.

If the White Sox win the Division with the current line-up,  LaRussa will be Manager of the year and he will deserve it.

I thought Madrigal sucked.

[ptatc]

After reading about the latest muscle injuries and Engels comments I think the injuries are from what the exercise field refers to as the SAID principle.  Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands. In other words nothing really gets you ready to play baseball other than playing baseball. We've always known this in running. We knew it was unique and you need to run to get your body to run. You can to other thing to prepare the body bit you need to run. 

We've never thought baseball was that specific as we see running to first base is just running. But coming out of the box and stretching to first look to be specific activities that need the adaptations.

Anyway just thought I would share some discussions we've been having in the medical field about all of these injuries. 

[TheFutureIsNear]

14 hours ago, hi8is said:

I thought Madrigal sucked.

Have you also ponder the fact that you might be an idiot?

.774 OPS and 118 WRC+ this season and 1.5 WAR in basically 1/2 season worth of a baseball career so far. Yup, you’re definitely an idiot 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Have you also ponder the fact that you might be an idiot?

.774 OPS and 118 WRC+ this season and 1.5 WAR in basically 1/2 season worth of a baseball career so far. Yup, you’re definitely an idiot 

 

He’s mocking the Madrigal haters

[TheFutureIsNear]

48 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

He’s mocking the Madrigal haters

Well in that case…my bad. Not on here enough to pick up sarcasm like that from a particular user 

["The Kids Can Play"]

On 6/10/2021 at 4:10 PM, Tnetennba said:

 

I think is good optimistic news. If we get Eloy and Robert back by late Aug, early Sept, we will be ok. Hopefully we get Nick back too. We play in the weakest division in baseball. As long as we don't lose any pitchers, we should be able to hang on to first place until we get them back. 

[Chicago White Sox]

53 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Well in that case…my bad. Not on here enough to pick up sarcasm like that from a particular user 

All good...I just know hi8is is a big Madrigal fan and figure I’d share

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

After reading about the latest muscle injuries and Engels comments I think the injuries are from what the exercise field refers to as the SAID principle.  Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands. In other words nothing really gets you ready to play baseball other than playing baseball. We've always known this in running. We knew it was unique and you need to run to get your body to run. You can to other thing to prepare the body bit you need to run. 

We've never thought baseball was that specific as we see running to first base is just running. But coming out of the box and stretching to first look to be specific activities that need the adaptations.

Anyway just thought I would share some discussions we've been having in the medical field about all of these injuries. 

Do you think Madrigal may/will have difficulties being healthy enough throughout the grind of a full MLB season to play 130+ games in any of given season during the remainder of his career?

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Have you also ponder the fact that you might be an idiot?

Pot meet kettle.

[ptatc]

5 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Do you think Madrigal may/will have difficulties being healthy enough throughout the grind of a full MLB season to play 130+ games in any of given season during the remainder of his career?

Not due to this injury but he seems to one of those guys that always has issues. Similar to Robert.

[SonofaRoache]

21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not due to this injury but he seems to one of those guys that always has issues. Similar to Robert.

Eloy, Madrigal, Robert, and Moncada scare me. I'm always concerned they will get some crazy injury. 

[ptatc]

22 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Eloy, Madrigal, Robert, and Moncada scare me. I'm always concerned they will get some crazy injury. 

Agreed. It's tough to call them injury prone because they are all weird injuries. However it does keep happening.

[harkness99]

On 6/11/2021 at 4:54 PM, tray said:

Madrigal was a perfect fit in our line-up..a high on-base, contact hitter.  His spot in the line-up will now be another black hole.

If Vaughn and Mercedes don't pick it up substantially Sox will not score enough runs to remain competitive.

If the White Sox win the Division with the current line-up,  LaRussa will be Manager of the year and he will deserve it.

yeah 2nd in the american league in runs scored with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball...

yes yes only a good manager could save us...

What a seriously shitty post man - that's up there.

Edited June 13, 2021 by harkness99

[South Side Hit Men]

Still more concerned with their bullpen.

Playing time through Labour Day, when any or all of the three starters return, the Sox have enough hitters to stay or climb further above .500, assuming the rest of the core and SP stay mostly healthy.

DH Mercedes 80% Grandal 10% Abreu 5% Lamb 5%
C Grandal 60% Collins 40% (Gio/Rodon)
1B Abreu 90% Grandal 10%
2B Mendick 70% Garcia 30%
SS Anderson 90% Mendick 10%
3B Moncada 90% Garcia 10%
RF Eaton 40% Goodwin 40% Garcia 20%
CF Engel 75% Hamilton 15% Garcia 10%
LF Vaughn 80% Lamb 20%

1. 95% Abreu.
2. 90% Anderson; Moncada.
3. 80% Grandal; Mendick; Mercedes; Vaughn. 
4. 75% Engel.
5. 70% Garcia.
6. 40% Collins; Eaton; Goodwin/OF.
7. 25% Lamb.
8. 15% Hamilton (project ASB return).

Note: Goodwin = Goodwin or someone else on the 40 man, or a trade acquisition.

 

 

[WookiesOnRitalin]

On 6/12/2021 at 10:28 AM, ptatc said:

After reading about the latest muscle injuries and Engels comments I think the injuries are from what the exercise field refers to as the SAID principle.  Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands. In other words nothing really gets you ready to play baseball other than playing baseball. We've always known this in running. We knew it was unique and you need to run to get your body to run. You can to other thing to prepare the body bit you need to run. 

We've never thought baseball was that specific as we see running to first base is just running. But coming out of the box and stretching to first look to be specific activities that need the adaptations.

Anyway just thought I would share some discussions we've been having in the medical field about all of these injuries. 

More simply, it is called Specificity. 

So yes, specificity is king. However, there is something to be said for increasing capacity at a joint in question in terms of stability. 

Let's say I have a client with an ASL range of 80 deg and a passive range of around 105 deg. This tells us that the athlete has stability up to 80 degrees, but instability from 80-105. So we know we have a software problem. The reason why this might be necessary is say an athlete is trying to leg out a slow chopper in the infield or stretch a single into a double. The increase in length of stride will facilitate increased demand at the glute and hamstring from a contractability perspective and at a length perspective (hamstring). So take the example athlete and if he consistently ranges past 80 degrees of hip flexion without stability, he could have an increase an injury at the joint in question. 

Now, running as a modality has a lot of different components to its execution much like pitching (see Eric Cressey). So, with an athlete, I would want to evaluate his symmetry from side to side. Running as a demand for rotation at the T-Spine and Hips along with dynamic, on demand stability at those joints while producing force at said joints (making biomechanics a cool topic of conversation). 

A more likely predictor of injury is an asymmetrical presentation in both length and stability of a particular joint. Now, some of this could be an adaptation to demand (say a Pitcher), but that is all the more reason to stay on top of specific care in order to manage the asymmetry. Pitchers have a greater need due to the nature of force production from one side of their body (where as a position player would not have as great of a demand). We know this due to volume. 

A starting pitcher for example produces 70-100 high production reps per performance whereas a given position player only produces a fraction of those attempts per game in terms of rotation (both swinging and throwing) and not at near the same intensity levels. This is one of the reasons why pitchers must have increased body care and increased rest in order to recover from such. 

The care for the position player is built around managing relative stiffness. These players increase their stiffness in order to move more explosively and quickly to either cover their position or in terms of running bases. This is why the majority of position players will have issues with backs, hips, knees, and less shoulder pathologies. So the athletes need stiffness to perform, but the big key is managing stiffness symmetrically AND find out if they gross discrepancies at a given joint that may increase their risk of injury. 

One of the pieces I find very interesting is how everyone likes to point to studies assessing hamstring ROM and injury risk, but fail to find references that look at the relationship between hip IR and available thoracic rotation. Not everything happens in a vacuum. We have to explore beyond one joint as the body works as a system. Imagine if I have an athlete with limited hip IR and a super stiff t-spine. When an athlete cannot get the extra force production from one area of his or her body, he will find it somewhere else increasing demand at that joint or muscle group. 

I have no insights into Nick's injury specifically, but these are the elements I look at with my athletes. 

[WookiesOnRitalin]

Also, the greatest predictor of injury is previous injury. This is why on ramping after injury is so important which means making sacrifices in performance in the short term to allow for maturity in the healing process. 

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, WookiesOnRitalin said:

Also, the greatest predictor of injury is previous injury. This is why on ramping after injury is so important which means making sacrifices in performance in the short term to allow for maturity in the healing process. 

Which is why Engel sat yesterday.  Thanks for the posts.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, WookiesOnRitalin said:

Also, the greatest predictor of injury is previous injury. This is why on ramping after injury is so important which means making sacrifices in performance in the short term to allow for maturity in the healing process. 

It depends where they are in the healing process. We've found that adding stress to any process increases the strength of the tissue. An example is why we put people in boots for ankle/foot fractures as opposed to casts like we used to. After about 8 weeks nearly all injuries are healed but it takes time to to regain the strength and control of the muscles.

The new part here is how specific baseball activities are. Most of these players getting injured worked out for the last year but for the first time in the lives they worked out more than played baseball. It really seems to have a negative effect in their health. 

[WookiesOnRitalin]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

 

The new part here is how specific baseball activities are. Most of these players getting injured worked out for the last year but for the first time in the lives they worked out more than played baseball. It really seems to have a negative effect in their health. 

Unfortunately, we cannot make any conclusions based on this without any concrete data as there are WAY too many variables to consider. This is why making conclusions based on broad themes is a dangerous game. 

We have to consider several factors. Age. State of training. General condition. Previous injury history. Anthropomorphics. 

Then we have to consider what type, frequency, and intensity of said training they are doing. Then you would have to figure out a control and go from there. Then you would have to figure out what protocols were more impactful. Foam rolling vs stretch. IASTM vs dynamic warm ups. It's crazy to think about the amount of protocols and variables to consider with regards to athlete health and outcomes. 

I agree that baseball specifics are important, but I would not associate an increase in injury frequency with a "working out more and playing ball less" paradigm without something that resembles more concrete data. How much time? How often? Etc. Etc. Etc.  

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, WookiesOnRitalin said:

Unfortunately, we cannot make any conclusions based on this without any concrete data as there are WAY too many variables to consider. This is why making conclusions based on broad themes is a dangerous game. 

We have to consider several factors. Age. State of training. General condition. Previous injury history. Anthropomorphics. 

Then we have to consider what type, frequency, and intensity of said training they are doing. Then you would have to figure out a control and go from there. Then you would have to figure out what protocols were more impactful. Foam rolling vs stretch. IASTM vs dynamic warm ups. It's crazy to think about the amount of protocols and variables to consider with regards to athlete health and outcomes. 

I agree that baseball specifics are important, but I would not associate an increase in injury frequency with a "working out more and playing ball less" paradigm without something that resembles more concrete data. How much time? How often? Etc. Etc. Etc.  

Of course there can be no conclusions as we are looking at just one season to another. The type of workouts they do would be irrelevant from the research perspective as none of the workouts can replicate true baseball activity. The question is is baseball specific enough that workouts can't replicate it. However with an almost double the injury rate from last year to this year it is an interesting discussion and will lead to further research on it because anecdotally it sure looks like there is a relationship. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by ptatc

[WookiesOnRitalin]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

Of course there can be no conclusions as we are looking at just one season to another. The type of workouts they do would be irrelevant from the research perspective as none of the workouts can replicate true baseball activity. The question is is baseball specific enough that workouts can't replicate it. However with an almost double the injury rate from last year to this year it is an interesting discussion and will lead to further research on it because anecdotally it sure looks like there is a relationship. 

The majority of the injury rates increasing in baseball are mostly due to the increase in velocity from pitchers as shoulder and elbow injuries account for 40% of DL assignments and 55% of DL Days. 

I would surmise that comparing injury rate from last year to this year is a complete wash and not much can be relied on data wise from last year. There is not much difference from year to year outside of the fact that the boys last year had more time off then they did this year as the season did not start until later in 2020. So is the conclusion that injury rates decrease with a later start and less games played? 

There really is not much to conclude. It just seems normal to me. Pitchers are the most at risk group for injuries and if they continue to increase velocity, they can fully expect to keep getting injured. The human body was not meant to maintain such heat for such long periods of time. It's not a question of if, but when these guys will blow up or if they are smart enough to dial down the velocity and develop pitches. 

[ptatc]

18 minutes ago, WookiesOnRitalin said:

The majority of the injury rates increasing in baseball are mostly due to the increase in velocity from pitchers as shoulder and elbow injuries account for 40% of DL assignments and 55% of DL Days. 

I would surmise that comparing injury rate from last year to this year is a complete wash and not much can be relied on data wise from last year. There is not much difference from year to year outside of the fact that the boys last year had more time off then they did this year as the season did not start until later in 2020. So is the conclusion that injury rates decrease with a later start and less games played? 

There really is not much to conclude. It just seems normal to me. Pitchers are the most at risk group for injuries and if they continue to increase velocity, they can fully expect to keep getting injured. The human body was not meant to maintain such heat for such long periods of time. It's not a question of if, but when these guys will blow up or if they are smart enough to dial down the velocity and develop pitches. 

Velocity is the primary cause of elbow injuries. Research shows this. Not so much for shoulder injuries. 

The almost double the rate of injuries is not just pitchers, it's a huge increase in position players. It is a big issue as it is a huge increase especially if it's an outlier. This would add credence to the time off from baseball activities could be a cause we have never really considered.  Not to say that it is but it brings up the new ideas to consider.

It is definitely not normal to have this huge increase in injury rate from one year to the next. The lack of baseball specific activity may not be the cause but it certainly needs to be investgated.

[WookiesOnRitalin]

21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Velocity is the primary cause of elbow injuries. Research shows this. Not so much for shoulder injuries. 

The almost double the rate of injuries is not just pitchers, it's a huge increase in position players. It is a big issue as it is a huge increase especially if it's an outlier. This would add credence to the time off from baseball activities could be a cause we have never really considered.  Not to say that it is but it brings up the new ideas to consider.

It is definitely not normal to have this huge increase in injury rate from one year to the next. The lack of baseball specific activity may not be the cause but it certainly needs to be investgated.

Proof will be in the pudding. If they have a full offseason with normal activity and injury rates drop, then you'll have your conclusion. 

If they do not, then the only thing that is really different is the prevalence of vaccination among players.