Heyman: Sox interested in someone on some team. Nightengale: *nods*

[ChiSox59]

51 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

What's the confusion? I want the best players to play every day this year regardless of future player development because I think this year will be the best chance to win a World Series and winning as many games as possible is the main key in getting home field advantage for the playoffs. Vaughn is great against LHP and is going to play against RHP. I just don't think it should've been as much as you think . But now with Engel injured he can continue to develop as you liked.

You on the other hand want to develop Vaughn and possibly sacrifice this year to that end because Vaughn 35 wRC+  vs. RHP is way better than

Leury's 83 now the main CF

Lamb 123

the now injured Engel's 155

Goodwins 216

So yea I wanted those guys to get a shot not so much at the expense of Vaughn ,but certainly equal time because winning now is important and I don't see a better chance in the future years as I see now.

Only time will tell about what I said about not winning a World Series in Vaughns heydays with the Sox.

The White Sox are not in a position to punt Vaughn's development in order to give Jake Lamb, Brian Goodwin or Leury Garcia at bats.  Those guys are all who they are - below average players who are lucky to have MLB jobs right now.  Andrew Vaughn is a consensus top 15-20 prospect in the game who is widely considered to have the potential to be an elite MLB hitter.  IS he right now?  No.  Will be be buy August 2021?  Probably not.  But we already know who Lamb, Goodwin and Garcia are and it isn't pretty.  Vaughn has enormous upside, especially as a LF/RF. 

I also don't think playing any of those guys over Vaughn puts the Sox in a better position to win now.  If Eloy, Engel and Luis were healthy - I'd have no problem sending AV to AAA to get a year of control back and let him get his swing hitting bombs in a bandbox.  But we just simply don't have that luxury at this stage, and I am dumbfounded that some posters (frankly just a couple) can't wrap their head around that.  There are no better options than Vaughn in LF right now.  

[Dominikk85]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is interesting; when looking at 2019 the r value is lower than the .47 value they show for 2018 which isn't THAT big.

Good read in general, and I'll stand partly corrected but still maintain it's not substantial - we're talking a few points, not 20-30.

I also wish the shift was accounted for here in their numbers as 5 of the guys on that top list are shifted against.

 

Yeah I think many of them are extreme pull hitters who pull 45+%

[South Side Hit Men]

57 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Leury has been playing on an every day basis and so has Vaughn. Leury 83 wRC+ ,Vaughn 35 wRC+ both against RHP. If his hitting is terrible what would you call Vaughn's. You're banking on upside happening.

Vaughn the 2nd best defender is quite the stretch. DO you think he'd be better in CF over Goodwin? Goodwin can actually play CF even if not so well because of his speed. Every day that goes by and Vaughn gets more and more chances ,his Outs Against Average will continue to get lower and lower. That cannot be denied when more and more flyballs will be beyond his grasp due to his lack of speed. You put Goodwin in a corner and he's superior to Vaughn.

This Lamb theory about favorable matchups is news to me even though I have seen you say it before. Tell me about it ,make a case. With as many blogs and Sox writers out there I'd love to see anything that supports this favorable matchup theory about Lamb against RHP. If anything you could say Vaughn is being played against favorable RHP matchups and his stats are still terrible against them.

Just like you are banking on Vaughn's upside I'll admit I'm banking on Lamb or Goodwin both being better hitters than Vaughn against RHP based on their handedness and the results to date as small as they might be.

So yes I really believe what I am saying just as you believe what you are saying. I have a tiny bit of proof in small sample sizes. I'm not sure you have any proof unless you want to count any evidence to can find about Lambs favorable matchups or Vaughn being the 2nd best defender left in the OF or Vaughn's upside against RHP happening  relatively soon.

 

Nobody is talking about putting Vaughn in CF. Their corner OF range metrics per Baseball Reference are the same -11 for Vaughn and -10 for Godwin’s entire career (and he is below average at this point since he is 30).Goodwin is already -0.4 dWAR after 8 games (5 CF 3 RF), Vaughn is -0.7 dWAR after 54 OF games.

Lamb, also on the wrong side of 30, can’t play any field position adequately. Vaughn plays everyday, not two or three days a week, and unlike Lamb they can keep Vaughn in the entire game.

Lamb has 9 ABs against LHP, this is the favorable matchups I am referring to. Play Lamb everyday, or every day against RHP, and Lamb will be exposed and his numbers against RHP and LHP will suffer. Vaughn was held back at first for both defense and against RHPs at times, but Tony saw he can field his position. 

In a perfect world, Vaughn would have had a full season last year in the minors, but at this stage of where he is at and where the team is at, Vaughn is best suited playing most games in LF (5-6 games per week). You can rotate the rest of the bunch until Hamilton (CF vs. LHP + late replacement) and Eaton (RF vs. most RHP) can return.

Edited June 22, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So your list consists of the guy who just got put back on to the DL, and one with a literal 32 AB sample, presented as equal information.  OK.  That's all I need to know about how honest you are being here.

You forgot about the much larger sample size of Vaughn being a 35 wRC+ against RHP. Do I want the other guys to get more of shot. Damn straight I do . AT least they aren't crap in the SSS and they are actually LH against a RHP pitcher. Imagine that, wanting LHB against RHP in modern baseball . Who would have thunk it. ? Oh yea apparently not you and your honesty about using your interpretation of my feelings over actually things I said. Let's give Vaughn all the starts against all RHP every day ! See I can draw baseless conclusions on your posts too.

Edited June 22, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

You :Nobody is talking about putting Vaughn in CF. Their corner OF range metrics per Baseball Reference are the same -11 for Vaughn and -10 for Godwin’s entire career (and he is below average at this point since he is 30).Goodwin is already -0.4 dWAR after 8 games (5 CF 3 RF), Vaughn is -0.7 dWAR after 54 OF games.

 

Me: That's right no one is talking about it because it's ludicrous to say Vaughn is a better fielder than Goodwin . Using his dWAR when 5 of his 8 games have been in CF to compare him to Vaughn only playing LF is also ludicrous .CF and RF are infinity harder to play than LF that's why a guy like Vaughn is playing LF. That's why Eloy plays LF . It's why anyone who sucks fielding but can hit plays LF. Vaughn can't hit RHP so why should he be in LF ? It's not for his fielding that's for damn sure.

 

You :Lamb, also on the wrong side of 30, can’t play any field position adequately. Vaughn plays everyday, not two or three days a week, and unlike Lamb they can keep Vaughn in the entire game.

 

Me: Lamb is 30 so if that's the wrong side of 30  dammmmnn. Even if  I concede he can't play anywhere adequately except maybe LF since Vaughn can play there I'd expect the same from you regarding Vaughn in LF against RHP because unless you are a plus defender who can't hit RHP you have no business being out there. He is a terrible LF and it's hard to imagine Lamb being much worse although I suppose it could happen.

 

You: Lamb has 9 ABs against LHP, this is the favorable matchups I am referring to. Play Lamb everyday, or every day against RHP, and Lamb will be exposed and his numbers against RHP and LHP will suffer. Vaughn was held back at first for both defense and against RHPs at times, but Tony saw he can field his position. 

 

Me: I never talked about Lamb playing against LHP so why would I care about that when I'm strictly talking about how he hits RHP. Him being exposed against RHP is pure speculation. I used his wRC+ of 123 against RHP ONLY. All I know is he has done better than Vaughn in his 80 PA sample size against RHP than Vaughn has in his 135 PA sample size by a very very wide margin. Vaughn is the one who has been exposed  against RHP and every day gets more exposed in the OF. And really, you choose now to stick up for TLR ?

Goodwin only has a 32 PA sample size against LHP but it's far from terrible unlike Vaughn.

.333 BA, .455 OBP .722 SLG , 1.177 OPS  216 WRC+

 

 

 

Quote

In a perfect world, Vaughn would have had a full season last year in the minors, but at this stage of where he is at and where the team is at, Vaughn is best suited playing most games in LF (5-6 games per week). You can rotate the rest of the bunch until Hamilton (CF vs. LHP + late replacement) and Eaton (RF vs. most RHP) can return.

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Sadly...I agree.  There is no reason not to give Burger a shot at DH.  Your outfield is the best we have and we both know it's pathetic.  We need a couple of quality replacements and we need them now.

I'm not as pessimistic. Yes, it absolutely sucks ass that the OF is as decimated as it is by injury right now. But, the next 18 games aren't vs the toughest competition.  So, if there was a part of the season to "get by" somewhat easier, it would be now.

And any move should be a temporary one, if Mercedes and Vaughn were to be sent down. We can't be much more than a few weeks away from at least Eaton coming back, and then we have the break.

After the break, maybe Engel and Hamilton come back.

After that, maybe a rental is added for a few weeks, until Eloy gets back. If Mercedes and/or Vaughn are sent down, maybe they could then come back when rosters expand, ready to kick ass.

 

I'll agree, it'll be a mish-mash of various temporary patches over the next ~month or so. But I think that the injury luck has to change a bit, right? Once it does, and if Hahn can add the right rental, we should be just fine.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You forgot about the much larger sample size of Vaughn being a 35 wRC+ against RHP. Do I want the other guys to get more of shot. Damn straight I do . AT least they aren't crap in the SSS and they are actually LH against a RHP pitcher. Imagine that, wanting LHB against RHP in modern baseball . Who would have thunk it. ? Oh yea apparently not you and your honesty about using your interpretation of my feelings over actually things I said. Let's give Vaughn all the starts against all RHP every day ! See I can draw baseless conclusions on your posts too.

I didn't forget it, but I also don't think that AV will be a 35 OPS player at the playoffs, unless you prematurely turn him into a platoon player and turn him into a longer term failure.

 

[poppysox]

Manhandled by one of the worst teams in baseball.  We need reinforcements NOW.

[Chicago White Sox]

Remember when some people thought we wouldn’t lose a beat by moving from Madrigal to Mendick at 2B?  Danny now down to a 81 wRC+.  Eduardo Escobar would be a godsend right now.

[SonofaRoache]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Remember when some people thought we wouldn’t lose a beat by moving from Madrigal to Mendick at 2B?  Danny now down to a 81 wRC+.  Eduardo Escobar would be a godsend right now.

You can't be talking about the untradeable Danny Mendick. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by SonofaRoache

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

You can't be talking about the ubtradeable Danny Mendick. 

Uber-tradeable?

[Bob Sacamano]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Remember when some people thought we wouldn’t lose a beat by moving from Madrigal to Mendick at 2B?  Danny now down to a 81 wRC+.  Eduardo Escobar would be a godsend right now.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Bring Adam Frazier to Chicago please.

[Bob Sacamano]

Has anyone mentioned Freddy Galvis as a rental idea?

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, manbearpuig said:

 

AKA the stealth Shit on Madrigal thread. Gone but not forgotten.

[Chicago White Sox]

Gross as fuck, Josh Nelson wants to trade three of our top 7 prospects for Adam Frazier.

 

[ChiSoxFanMike]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Gross as fuck, Josh Nelson wants to trade three of our top 7 prospects for Adam Frazier.

 

He is delusional.

[Blackout Friday]

I’d like Frazier, as he mashes RHP and has just about his whole career. Reynolds would be great too. Both would be costly, but I wonder if the Sox would be willing to take on Polanco and his salary to lessen the prospect capital. Doubtful given JR still owns the team, just a thought. 

[chw42]

Escobar hit a 441 foot bomb off Devin Williams today.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Huh

[DirtySox]

7 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Huh

Oh?

[iWiN4PreP]

Plz do not go and get career half year adam frazier or subpar Escobar.

 

Go after Starlin Marte or Charlie Blackmon/Story or some other star.

 

How can other teams acquire star rentals for not much, but not us? 

[joejoesox]

has a player ever been traded while sitting out with a season ending injury?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Remember when some people thought we wouldn’t lose a beat by moving from Madrigal to Mendick at 2B?  Danny now down to a 81 wRC+.  Eduardo Escobar would be a godsend right now.

Madrigal was a key cog in helping the Sox beat LHP and so was Mercedes, then Eloy and Robert. That's why I was probably the 1st one around here to say the Sox need help from both sides of the plate and why I always thought Escobar was perfect. Everyone focused on hey wait he hits LHP better than RHP  well guess what the Sox aren't so hot against LHP anymore either without Madrigal and Mercedes in his uber slump  .

Madrigal had a .576 slugging against LHP

Abreu is currently at . 559

Mercedes .524 even after slumping for now over half the season

Moncada .421

Tim Anderson is actually doing better against RHP this year and is only .353  Slg. v LHP

So when you see Madrigal and the slumbering Mercedes are still 2 of your  top 3 big boppers against LHP that should accomplish 3 things  :1. Show just about everyone that that the Sox need help against any handed pitcher.   2. Make you realize that Madrigal is a lot bigger piece to the Sox winning than previously thought. 3. Show anyone who was talking about the offense being fine and pointing to Run Differential as proof  , that is no longer the case.

[SCCWS]

I still feel that the OF needs solving much more than 2B.  We have a struggling Vaughn, an injured Roberts and an injured Eaton.  Hahn needs to find a rental now as even the Pirates have been a challenge.  Several teams have some very talented outfield prospects on the cusp (Seattle (2) Tampa(2) , Bosotn (1) to name a few. The Sox don't have a lot of ammunition, but if Hahn could find some package he would solve what looks to be a long-term OF need.