CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, MiddleCoastBias said: But why not both? You're talking about the wave of guys that are years away from contributing (Kelley, etc) in order to win now. Why not trade the "almost ready" guys like Sheets and Stiever to win now, and then keep those second wave guys like Kelley? We can go both: win now and prepare for replacing Gio and Keuchel in the future. We have so much of the core locked up for 5+ years that guys like Kelley that come cheap are exactly what we need to AVOID Reinsdorf impeding future success. Both is possible. But I am more in the this year mode because this year is the best and cheapest starting pitching staff the Sox will have in the next couple of years and the core will keep getting more expensive in arbitration years and the progression of the contracts that have been extended and Jerry doesn't pay the big bucks like Houston did for Verlander or the Cubs did for Lester or the Dodgers did for Bauer in their windows . If you have faith in the pitchers in the Sox system to replace the loss of Lynn and Rodon after this year and Gio and Keuchel in the coming years and still won't spend much for top of the line pitching that's an awful lot to ask of a bunch of young arms none of whom are top 100 prospects. Lynn and Rodon are 2 of the best pitchers in the AL this year. Giolito at his best isn't far behind. We have an elite closer who we have at his peak now but also have for another 3 years. Kopech next year still building up his arm, Cease, Giolito, Keuchel. Maybe pray we can sign Lynn or Rodon if Rodon can survive the innings this year. It's probable Lynn and Rodon are gone after this year. 2022 we are down our 2 best current starting pitchers. 2023 could be the end of the window if Kopech doesn't become an ace with Crochet hopefully not losing any time to TJS just starting to become a starting pitcher. My main concern is how is the window sustained unless 2 of Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist ,Vera, Kelley, Lambert don't step up to replace the production of Gio and the aging Keuchel between now and 2024 when we will need Kopech and Cease to be a 1 and a 2 .With Crochet a long shot and all those other guys long shots to fill out the rest of the rotation and without Jerry spending enough to fill the holes in the starting pitching staff when the inevitable injuries and failures to the prospects start piling up I don't see sustained success as anything more than blowing smoke up our asses. We've seen this play out time and time again with the Sox. They never do enough to make the playoffs time and time again. It's up to the Sox to decide who is worth giving up . If we see very little action outside of Escobar or someone like him it's either Jerry being frugal or Hahn will come out and say teams were asking for those arms they might not to give up to prop the supposed window open beyond 2023. It's my biggest concern that not only won't the Sox win a World Series and that there also will not be sustained success for more than the next couple years. Anyone who buys the sustained success BS when they've seen how Jerry operates is wearing Sox blinders.Expecting things to get better when he is gone also never works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 33 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: Didn’t they hit on almost every acquisition so far? You will have to be more specific for me to answer that question in detail. Give me details and I will answer the question. What acquisitions are you referencing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 56 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Ok I asked you to quote something I said. That's pretty easy to do here and since you didn't . End of discussion. There's a reason why courtrooms have stenographers but apparently you have no use for using the info easily at hand. This is a really weak defense of the post, but if that is what you have, that's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I think that the oft used process of evaluating two players, especially by WAR, is flawed, when trying to gauge the overall impact on the team. In this particular case, can you really determine the impact of replacing Mendick with Escobar, strictly on the basis of the difference in their anticipated WAR? The Sox lack power, particularly from the left side. Escobar would address that need, while Mendick does not. It's a team problem and while the difference in WAR is important, it doesn't address the overall value of having a more balanced lineup. For example, one can debate the issue of providing "protection" for teammates in the batting order, and you can argue how important it is to avoid letting the opposing pitcher get too comfortable facing consecutive hitters, from the same side. However, those kinds of issues are not considered in the WAR equation. In other words, it may indeed not be worth giving up prospects, just to add .5 in WAR, but being able to construct a lineup, which has a better chance against a particular pitcher, on a particular day might make a significant difference. Let's say that you're facing a tough RH pitcher, who has dramatically favorable splits against RH hitters. On that day, being able to insert a potent, run producing LH bat into the lineup, could certainly be a critical advantage and one which mere WAR does not take into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 27 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: I really don't want to trade the next Bassitt for some rental 2B that will produce .5 more WAR than Mendick and mean jack squat in the playoffs. One of Kelley, Steiver, Lampert and so forth will probably be a decent 4th starter cost controlled for 6+ years at the MLB level. Why make a trade like that? The Sox' window is wide open not just this year but potentially the next 4+. Don't trade a guy that can contribute to another playoff team in 2025 in some misguided attempt to go "all in" needlessly. The younger guys are the difference between a 3-4 year run, and a potential run of the decade. If you are dealing them, you had better be sure you are getting a guy that puts you over the top AND will be around for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XplodingScorbord Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 hours ago, tray said: If Eloy and Robert come back close to full strength, If Engel, Mendick and Vaughn continue to show progress, If Kopech picks up where he left off, and the bullpen improves.. Then ,OK, no drastic need to acquire more players at this point. But those are all big "Ifs." So, assuming all that works out, you have Eloy, Engel and Robert in the outfield, Moncada, TA, Mendick, Abreu in the infield with Yaz catching, Vaughn as the DH Leury and Billy on the bench. Arguably that could work...if everyone remains healthy. I’d rather Eloy was DHing and Vaughn was in left, thanks, at least for the remainder of this season. No reason whatsoever to risk Eloy’s (and anyone he may run into’s) health by putting him anywhere but the batter’s box. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: Would you trade Mendick for Escobar? Personally, I think Frazier is going to cost too much, and regressing to the mean is probable. Yes. I most certainly would trade Danny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, XplodingScorbord said: I’d rather Eloy was DHing and Vaughn was in left, thanks, at least for the remainder of this season. No reason whatsoever to risk Eloy’s (and anyone he may run into’s) health by putting him anywhere but the batter’s box. Eloy really put the pressure on the Sox to let him play left. Because of his injury, they have a built in excuse not to do so when he gets back. At least for this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 One of the better in season trades the Sox made was in 2000 acquiring Charles Johnson for the stretch run. Brooks Fordyce was the cost. He was serviceable, and put up really good numbers the rest of 2000 for Baltimore, but Johnson was nails for the Sox. Just a rental, but he helped make sure they made the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Came in here to say that I'd be really worried about trading for Adam Frazier only for him to be a bench bat the rest of the way, no better than some of our current lackluster options. I'd prefer to strike bigger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said: Yes. I most certainly would trade Danny. Brutal. You're trading a cost controlled totally cromulent 1.5-2.5 WAR SS/2B for a rental. That would be such a shitty trade. That's the sort of dumbass trade that got the sox into a rebuild or signing the Emilio Bonifacios of the world. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 The thing is, if you traded for Escobar, you could re-sign him and let him take the Leury perhaps with less OF appearances in 2022. If they get any semblance of health next season, you won't need that spot to go to the OF very often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: The thing is, if you traded for Escobar, you could re-sign him and let him take the Leury perhaps with less OF appearances in 2022. If they get any semblance of health next season, you won't need that spot to go to the OF very often. Also we've turned a bunch of DH/3rd baseman to corner outfielders next season, not sure I'm worried about Escobar out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 The Sox needs are LH power and pitch BP. TLR will probably like more pitching above all else . Take all the time you want Rick but we know where the needs are right now. That won't change unless it changes for the worse in the next 5 weeks . Do what you feel is necessary and what Jerry allows when he pulls your strings and controls the pocketbook. Experiment with some arms . See if Ofreidy Gomez and the 2 31 yr olds Nik Turley and Mike Wright can contribute . All 3 are doing well in Charlotte. Pitch Burr more w/e it takes but in order to get answers you have to try solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: The thing is, if you traded for Escobar, you could re-sign him and let him take the Leury perhaps with less OF appearances in 2022. If they get any semblance of health next season, you won't need that spot to go to the OF very often. Why the fuck would you take a guy barely above league average as a hitter, who will be in his age 33 season, and give him a contract to move to the OF? Also I'm sure he'd be great with the "you're now a backup" plan. None of that makes any sense from player or org standpoint. Edited June 17, 2021 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Brutal. You're trading a cost controlled totally cromulent 1.5-2.5 WAR SS/2B for a rental. That would be such a shitty trade. That's the sort of dumbass trade that got the sox into a rebuild or signing the Emilio Bonifacios of the world. Whoa calm down there. Danny mendick is solid but he is a backup at best on this team. The Sox need to continue drafting solid players and signing Latin players. That will extend the window, not trading Danny Mendick for a better player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Just now, SonofaRoache said: Whoa calm down there. Danny mendick is solid but he is a backup at best on this team. The Sox need to continue drafting solid players and signing Latin players. That will extend the window, not trading Danny Mendick for a better player. It's almost like nobody watched the Sox struggle to find cheap 1-2 WAR players for a decade. You know why the Sox have a .632 win percentage? Because they have a lot of Danny Mendicks, finally. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: It's almost like nobody watched the Sox struggle to find cheap 1-2 WAR players for a decade. You know why the Sox have a .632 win percentage? Because they have a lot of Danny Mendicks, finally. No it is because we have elite starting pitching. If our pitching was above average, we'd be tied with Cleveland at least. If we have a lot of Mendicks wouldn't that mean we are capable of finding more if we traded him? Hell, Mendick won't be on the roster when we get guys back. Edited June 17, 2021 by SonofaRoache 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: It's almost like nobody watched the Sox struggle to find cheap 1-2 WAR players for a decade. You know why the Sox have a .632 win percentage? Because they have a lot of Danny Mendicks, finally. Yeah, remember the atrocious below replacement level players the Sox trotted out there during their stars and scrubs phase in the past decade? Players like Engel, Mendick and Leury can keep your team afloat when one of the starters go down. Edited June 17, 2021 by GermanSoxFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Brutal. You're trading a cost controlled totally cromulent 1.5-2.5 WAR SS/2B for a rental. That would be such a shitty trade. That's the sort of dumbass trade that got the sox into a rebuild or signing the Emilio Bonifacios of the world. The Sox traded Dunning for a rental . How is that working out so far ? Were you against the Dunning trade too ? Trading a backup 2nd baseman for a big power bat would be a lot better than trading prospects. Danny has done well and it's appreciated but if he is anything more than a utility guy for the rest of his career I can live with whatever he becomes in the future for a shot at winning the World Series. It's not like he's some some 18 yr old super athletic guy barely starting his pro career the Sox traded for a bum pitcher when they weren't even legit contenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-Gun Pete Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: Would you trade Mendick for Escobar? Personally, I think Frazier is going to cost too much, and regressing to the mean is probable. I dont want Frazier, because I too think that he absolutely will turn into a turd the second he's moved. Also, in watching the Will Craig Moronathon Play, Frazier didn't exactly distinguish himself as a leader in the IF, and he didn't exactly make a strong effort on that play, either. Basically, I think Frazier might be too stupid, and/or too lazy, and/or too careless to be on a contending team. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said: I dont want Frazier, because I too think that he absolutely will turn into a turd the second he's moved. Also, in watching the Will Craig Moronathon Play, Frazier didn't exactly distinguish himself as a leader in the IF, and he didn't exactly make a strong effort on that play, either. Basically, I think Frazier might be too stupid, and/or too lazy, and/or too careless to be on a contending team. I was watching a Mic'd up segment with Frazier mic'd up during a game with the Dodgers .He was pretty funny. The whole time he was talking to Justin Turner about brokering a bet between himself and AJ Pollock regarding Miss. St and Notre Dame. The he made a bonehead running play and he wanders off the field telling himself I must be one of the dumbest base runners in the history of baseball or something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Why the fuck would you take a guy barely above league average as a hitter, who will be in his age 33 season, and give him a contract to move to the OF? Also I'm sure he'd be great with the "you're now a backup" plan. None of that makes any sense from player or org standpoint. Leury is technically a back up and he gets more play than most regulars. The team would be stacked, and Escobar isn't exactly a star, so he may like the role. He loves the organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 54 minutes ago, XplodingScorbord said: I’d rather Eloy was DHing and Vaughn was in left, thanks, at least for the remainder of this season. No reason whatsoever to risk Eloy’s (and anyone he may run into’s) health by putting him anywhere but the batter’s box. I haven't looked up the D numbers, but by the eye test, I feel like Vaughn has been a better LF for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 We need to go out and grab Starlin Marte. That's the ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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