Could the Astros Still Be Cheating?

[Lillian]

I don't want to sound like a poor loser, but the thought crossed my mind that the Astros might still be up to their chicanery. They seem to be especially good at scoring runs. They never did receive any punishment for their previous transgressions and they never seemed to exhibit much contrition. Apparently they don't use anything as obvious as beating on a trash can, but they certainly could be employing something much more sophisticated and difficult to detect. I have no proof and therefore this should not be misconstrued as an allegation. I'm just wondering. Hey, that's the price dishonest people pay for their transgressions, especially when they show little, or no remorse. Why should we believe, or trust them?

Although the Astros do have the highest runs per game average in the Majors, they actually score even more, on the road. Therefore, if they are cheating, they might have devised a way to do it all of the time, not just during home games. It's not as though Major League Baseball has suddenly gotten a conscience and decided to refrain from breaking the rules. Witness the current controversy over "sticky substances". And who knows, if they are cheating, maybe they're not alone. Again, I have absolutely no evidence, however I remain suspicious. They do have a history, and you can't blame one for doubting whether they have actually been reformed. Any thoughts?

Edited June 20, 2021 by Lillian

[Lillian]

For me, one of the biggest red flags is Altuve's performance, this month. How does that little guy hit 9 homers, in 17 games, without some kind of help? Is he really that talented? Perhaps, but that just seems other worldly.

[wegner]

I trust these guys about as much as I trust myself around my wife's chocolate chip cookies.  I might resist for awhile, but not for long.  The Astros have earned the right for people to be sceptical and suspicious of them.  Altuve's splits on the road vs at home in that World Series year quite frankly sicken me.  CHEATERS!!!

[Lillian]

The other red flag is that the Astros' almost never look really fooled on a pitch.

[joejoesox]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

The other red flag is that the Astros' almost never look really fooled on a pitch.

this is a huge red flag imo

[Goober]

No doubt, scumbag organization isn't gonna change their ways if they get wins

[reiks12]

Its more likely our pitching coming back down to earth. Rodon pitched fine against them

[NWINFan]

Anything is possible with this team, but it was Keuchel walking hitters with the bases loaded. And he wasn't all that close.

[Balta1701]

It’s blatant for Lynn, but Cease also has had his average spin rate drop the last 3 games compared to what he was throwing in May. So let’s be cautious about the construction of the White Sox’s house before throwing those stones.

[Tnetennba]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It’s blatant for Lynn, but Cease also has had his average spin rate drop the last 3 games compared to what he was throwing in May. So let’s be cautious about the construction of the White Sox’s house before throwing those stones.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the Astros are still up to something.  But it seems way more likely that a few Sox pitchers are missing the grip they’ve enjoyed to this point, and the Sox ran into a red hot Astros team at the wrong time.  Offense and defense have been just as bad as the pitching this series. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Tnetennba

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, Lillian said:

The other red flag is that the Astros' almost never look really fooled on a pitch.

^^^^^^

[southsider2k5]

Unless it is the Sox pitchers who aren't cheating anymore...

[Leonard Zelig]

57 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Unless it is the Sox pitchers who aren't cheating anymore...

During one of the games against Houston, Benetti asked Beckham what percentage of pitchers in the league he thought were using a substance and he said all.  

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Unless it is the Sox pitchers who aren't cheating anymore...

I think that there will be an approved substance in 2022 or whenever the next CBA is finished. 

Too many pitchers think that rosin alone isn't sufficient for MLB baseballs. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[hogan873]

The Sox looked bad this weekend, and the Astros are a good team.  I'm not sure any of us would have thought they were cheating if they hadn't been caught, but it's hard now to think they aren't cheating.  They never looked lost at the plate, never got fooled (except against Rodon).  But, good-hitting teams will hit the baseball, especially when the pitching isn't great.  And our pitching was pretty bad (again, aside from Rodon).

If they're still cheating, they're doing a good job of hiding it.  They have to be under a microscope, so the days of trash cans and monitors are over.

[SCCWS]

16 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Anything is possible with this team, but it was Keuchel walking hitters with the bases loaded. And he wasn't all that close.

Also Keuchel said he is still very close to some members of the Astros. So I doubt his pitches are getting tipped. unless the Astros have a psychic on the bench 

[NWINFan]

49 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Also Keuchel said he is still very close to some members of the Astros. So I doubt his pitches are getting tipped. unless the Astros have a psychic on the bench 

I think that you're right in that the Astros were familiar with Keuchel. Otherwise, this was just an example of a pitcher struggling with his command. Any player can have an off day. The Sox are not as bad as this series seemed to show, but their performance raised some red flags.  The division race will be close.

[Balta1701]

29 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I think that you're right in that the Astros were familiar with Keuchel. Otherwise, this was just an example of a pitcher struggling with his command. Any player can have an off day. The Sox are not as bad as this series seemed to show, but their performance raised some red flags.  The division race will be close.

A rule from about 15 years ago - if baseball didn’t want this question asked they should have kept things clean. A guy struggling with his command because he couldn’t grip the ball like he used to a couple weeks ago…maybe?

[kgrittenburg]

22 hours ago, Lillian said:

I don't want to sound like a poor loser, but the thought crossed my mind that the Astros might still be up to their chicanery. They seem to be especially good at scoring runs. They never did receive any punishment for their previous transgressions and they never seemed to exhibit much contrition. Apparently they don't use anything as obvious as beating on a trash can, but they certainly could be employing something much more sophisticated and difficult to detect. I have no proof and therefore this should not be misconstrued as an allegation. I'm just wondering. Hey, that's the price dishonest people pay for their transgressions, especially when they show little, or no remorse. Why should we believe, or trust them?

Although the Astros do have the highest runs per game average in the Majors, they actually score even more, on the road. Therefore, if they are cheating, they might have devised a way to do it all of the time, not just during home games. It's not as though Major League Baseball has suddenly gotten a conscience and decided to refrain from breaking the rules. Witness the current controversy over "sticky substances". And who knows, if they are cheating, maybe they're not alone. Again, I have absolutely no evidence, however I remain suspicious. They do have a history, and you can't blame one for doubting whether they have actually been reformed. Any thoughts?

Just as good of a chance, the Sox pitchers inability to use spider tack any longer led to this debacle

[Rowand44]

22 hours ago, Lillian said:

I don't want to sound like a poor loser,

Well that didn't work.

[Lillian]

1 hour ago, Rowand44 said:

Well that didn't work.

Touche. LOL. Yeah, I guess maybe you're right. Nevertheless, I still don't trust the Astros, do you? On the other hand, perhaps the entire League cheats. I don't know. As the old adage about baseball goes; "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".

Edited June 21, 2021 by Lillian

[MLB Fun]

First off, let's talk about 2017. The investigation found that the two people who brought the sign stealing scheme to Houston were Carlos Beltran and assistant coach Alex Cora. Both joined the team for the 2017 season. So they were not cheating before then. If you look at Altuve's stats, he hit .338 the year before in 2016, .313 in 2015, and .341 in 2014. He can just rake. 

Let's talk a little more about Altuve and the cheating scandal, since many seem to want him to be the face of it. Based on the evidence, Altuve was clean. 

Look at his home and away batting splits in 2017. At home he hit .311, but on the road he hit .381. Every single stat of his was better on the road. Carlos Correa has said that Altuve did not use the sign stealing scheme, and refused to participate. Here is that interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waxx9kLqnlc

Here's the transcript of Correa in that interview:

Quote

Jose Altuve, Josh Reddick, Tony Kemp.. they didn't use it, at all. They didn't want to. They would get mad if somebody would bang the trash can when they were hitting. And yeah, those guys... they're not gonna say it. They're not gonna say it. Altuve is too humble to go out there and throw his team under the bus. I'm gonna say it because I was there. I saw it. I saw it with my own eyes. They didn't want it. I remember one time, somebody banged the trash can without his consent, when he was hitting. He was heated. And you guys don't see Altuve mad very often, but you don't want to see him mad. When he's mad, he's heated. And I would remember he would get heated any time someone accidentally, or without his consent would bang on the trash can. 

 

And the evidence seems to support that admission from Correa. Here is a chart from a guy who plotted every trash can bang he could from the 2017 season. Here is a comparison of Altuve to some others, such as Marwin Gonzales and George Springer:

 

 

There is a video out there where you can hear a bang when Altuve is up to bat, and he looks at the Astros dugout and looked pissed off. I honestly believe what Correa said is the truth. He has been very candid through the whole thing. Edit: Here is the video of Altuve looking pissed at the dugout after a bang: https://twitter.com/adams_at/status/1402342356456722434?s=21

 

As for the sign-stealing scheme as a whole, there isn't really any evidence that it worked to begin with. If you look at the stats, the Astros hit .279 at home and .284 on the road. Every stat was better on the road than it was at home. 

 

The truth seems to be that the Astros can just flat-out hit. They thought this sign-stealing scheme could make them even better, but in reality at best it seemed to have very little effect at all. I think it's been proven not only in the stats, but also that their team can still absolutely rake even after all this stuff came out. 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by MLB Fun

[southsider2k5]

I wonder who is taking the time to register at random baseball message boards in order to try to make excuses for the Houston Astros cheating.  What a weird thing to feel the need to do.

[Lillian]

And what about the evidence that suggests that Altuve was wearing a wire? Remember when he grabbed his shirt, for fear that his teammates would tear it off, while celebrating a walk off homer?

[raBBit]

9 minutes ago, Lillian said:

And what about the evidence that suggests that Altuve was wearing a wire? Remember when he grabbed his shirt, for fear that his teammates would tear it off, while celebrating a walk off homer?

He hit a walkoff home run. His teammates tried to rip his jersey off. As he rounded third to the team pile he signaled them to not rip it off. As he hit the walkoff, of course Rosenthal wanted to interview him after the game. He had to first run to the clubhouse and change into a t shirt and then took the interview. When asked about taking his jersey off or whatever, he asked Rosenthal to repeat the question - something liars do when thinking of an answer. He then said he was shy and his wife wouldn't want him to have his shirt off. There were dozens of pictures of him shirtless posted on his social media. Something was very sketchy there.