Adam Engel Back to the IL - Hamstring

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

Who knows tbh. He is putting up good numbers in AAA. He is blocked here by Yoan. There might be another team that views him and a legitimate 3rd base prospect. His production after so much time off is really impressive. 

Burgers' numbers are eye-popping and a DH who can back up another position or two is a nice plus.

[South Side Hit Men]

27 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

 

They are going to activate Tony as a player manager at some point. 

[HOFHurt35]

16 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

 

 

You know we're in deep shit when they are looking over their shoulder to check on how Billy Hamilton is progressing from his injury. 

 

[reiks12]

strength and conditioning coaches need to be replaced, this is inexcusable at this point. How are there so many hamstring problems on this team?

[Chisoxfn]

Even if Cease gets out - he has a real nice swing for a pitcher.  His first swing was pretty good - I got to imagine all breaking balls from here on out.  

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Even if Cease gets out - he has a real nice swing for a pitcher.  His first swing was pretty good - I got to imagine all breaking balls from here on out.  

Wrong thread?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:28 AM, Lillian said:

I didn't know that Goodwin was considered such a bad defensive centerfielder. Would Leury be better, and could Goodwin be ok in RF?

Ok let's set the record straight on Goodwin's fielding.

Defensive stats shouldn't be use in short doses. I don't know how many games or innings should be played to get an accurate read on these things but I wouldn't consider 2020 a year in which to judge him or this year.

The last time he had a significant number of time to play the OF was 2019 with the Angels. Let's look at his Outs ABove Average in 2019 when he was 28 years old ( now 30 )

Outs Above Average 2019 ( this is a range based stats that considers speed and jumps and reads .)

CF -   0 which means he was an average CF.

RF -   1 slightly above average.

LF -    4 above average.

Is it possible he has lost a 1/2 step from then til now. Yes. I can't find his sprint speed from 2019 but from this year it's 68 which is pretty good  if you compare it to Vaughn's 39. This was probably the only year in which he played enough to get an accurate read on his defense.

 I have no idea which stats or years Caulfield was talking about when he said he graded out as one of the worst CF's . As usual unless you get stats to back it up I'd ask for them. Lots of people like to use DRS (defensive runs saved) . I'm no expert but I like baseball savants OAA  which uses Statcast video evidence.

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[South Side Hit Men]

Baseball Reference paints a different picture, and takes in account aspects beyond "sprint speed", such as fielding accuracy, range, arm strength and accuracy. By these metrics, Brian Goodwin is the worst alternative among the current (and injured but on the roster) options.

Defensive Runs Saved Above (Below) Average Per Year (1,200 Innings Played / Approximately 135 games as calculated by Baseball Reference):

Center Field

• Luis Robert 15
• Billy Hamilton 13
• Adam Engel 6
• Leury Garcia -5
• Brian Goodwin -13 <= Worst option

Left Field

• Leury Garcia 0 
• Andrew Vaughn -11
• Eloy Jimenez -11
• Brian Goodwin -13 <= Worst option 

Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Saved Above (Below) Average Per Year (same annualization):

Center Field

• Billy Hamilton 11
• Luis Robert 7
• Adam Engel 5
• Leury Garcia -18
• Brian Goodwin -19 <= Worst option

Left Field

• Andrew Vaughn 12
• Leury Garcia 5
• Eloy Jimenez 5
• Brian Goodwin -11 <= Worst Option

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

My post did say OAA is a range based stat that takes into account sprint speed,jump and read  and also route . They use video evidence that shows the players route, distance covered, and the amount of time it took them to cover that distance. So you are greatly short changing it.

I suppose I could look into your claims but I don't see how anyone can fault OAA . It's video proof based on  plenty of things measured by the microsecond. I don't even know what fielding accuracy is. If you are trying to claim Vaughn is a better LF than Leury Garcia by a wide margin that is preposterous and also applies to Brian Goodwin.

Vaughn will never ever have the speed or range or the JUMP. He's as close to the bottom in jump as you can get with a 10 rating which is based on 100 being the best. to be in positive territory in OAA . Speed is the number one factor in what makes an OF above average Sure it's not the end all be all if you can get a good jump and take good routes but Vaughn so far is terrible at getting jumps.  So even if his routes are accurate he just can't cover enough ground to get to balls other players with more speed get to. This is rudimentary stuff. 

If he is so much better than them why can't he play CF like them ? Oh yeah he's slower than shit. Oh yeah he doesn't have the range based on speed and jump to play CF. Come on now. You put Goodwin or Leury in LF and they get to more catchable bloopers , balls down the line and in the gaps faster which will mean more outs and less bases taken by runners.

Vaughn is only propped up by that Total Zone stuff that only Baseball Prospectus uses because he hasn't made any errors and G- Rate does not have an expansive OF.

According to OAA Vaughn is basically equal to Michael Brantley in the OF this year . Brantley covers a little bit more ground and runs better routes and has a better burst to the ball while Vaughn is better at reaction time.

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[South Side Hit Men]

I clearly stated the stats are from Baseball Reference, not Baseball Prospectus. You make assumptions about the methodology that just aren’t true.

If you look at fan graphs, Brian Goodwin also has very poor defensive metrics at CF and LF each and every season. Poor routes, poor decisions, poor throws. It all adds up to a poor OFer.

The only reason he exists is the Sox are on their 9th OFer. He gawn as soon as an everyday (Robert or Engel) or semi regular (Hamilton or Eaton) outfielder returns.

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Vaughn is only propped up by that Total Zone stuff that only Baseball Prospectus uses because he hasn't made any errors and G- Rate does not have an expansive OF.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

CaliSox obsession with Vaughn is nearing that guy who's Yermin obsession must have meant his wife slept with Yermin.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[CentralChamps21]

Sorry to interrupt the Vaughn discussion, but since this thread is about Engel's injury, has anybody heard anything on how long he might be out?

[Vulture]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:23 PM, poppysox said:

True...but with our current DH problem I would give Burger a shot,  Burger has a higher value to us than anyone else would be my guess.

Why not Sheets? Burger has out slugged him but Sheets BB and K rates are better, BA/OBP are marginally better plus he's a lefty hitter

[Two-Gun Pete]

11 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Why not Sheets? Burger has out slugged him but Sheets BB and K rates are better, BA/OBP are marginally better plus he's a lefty hitter

Sheets' Splits

Look at Sheets' road splits away from the hitters paradise that is Truist. Then vomit. Then you'll realize why not Sheets.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Why not Sheets? Burger has out slugged him but Sheets BB and K rates are better, BA/OBP are marginally better plus he's a lefty hitter

As platoon DH, but then those at bats would go to Lamb or Goodwin.  Burger is at least an average 3B, if not trending upwards with repetitions, whereas Sheets is ensconced as a pretty below average corner outfielder. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

CaliSox obsession with Vaughn is nearing that guy who's Yermin obsession must have meant his wife slept with Yermin.

blah blah blah windbag. It's a baseball discussion based on defensive stats which are a highly debatable thing to discuss. You stepping in with nonsense is typical .You are acting like a petulant school child who was scolded because  I admonished you on using lies and distortions when arguing about Vaughn's abilities vs. RHP. If I am obsessed with Vaughn what does that make you? The guy who lied and told everyone that I said send him down to the minors when I did not, then didn't bother to take it out of your post after you admitted I was right.

The only thing you have left is to personally attack me.

Apparently you are obsessed with spreading falsehoods and lies and jokes at my expense like a child among his schoolmates.

Edited June 25, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I clearly stated the stats are from Baseball Reference, not Baseball Prospectus. You make assumptions about the methodology that just aren’t true.

If you look at fan graphs, Brian Goodwin also has very poor defensive metrics at CF and LF each and every season. Poor routes, poor decisions, poor throws. It all adds up to a poor OFer.

The only reason he exists is the Sox are on their 9th OFer. He gawn as soon as an everyday (Robert or Engel) or semi regular (Hamilton or Eaton) outfielder returns.

 

Yes excuse me I said Baseball Prospectus and believe it or not I looked at that Total Zone stat you used on Baseball Reference  and saw the stat you used and spent quite a bit of time looking at it.

Basically I saw you used one column of a whole range of the Total Zone stats, 21 different defensive stats columns.17 of those columns had either a negative, 0 or no data at all  for Vaughn. This indicates he has not yet compiled the necessary stats to properly grade him or you ignored the others and just used the highest number you could find in the positive which was that 12 under the column Rtot/yr.

Rtot/yr defined is: Total Zone  The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1200 innings. This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch into a total defensive contribution , In 3 of those 4 categories there were 2 with no data at all and 1 was a 0. Vaughn has 411 innings of total in his career yet the stat clearly states it needs 1200 inning to truly calculate these things yet it gave him a 12 anyway which you used.

When I look under that same column and look at Vaughn's 2 game sample in RF I see 103. When I look up Dwight Evans Career in RF who is usually considered a great RF I see 77. Would you then think Vaughn is a better RF then Dwight Evans ? This is the danger in using small sample sizes against a larger sample size.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Sorry to interrupt the Vaughn discussion, but since this thread is about Engel's injury, has anybody heard anything on how long he might be out?

Nothing has been said.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

blah blah blah windbag. It's a baseball discussion based on defensive stats which are a highly debatable thing to discuss. You stepping in with nonsense is typical .You are acting like a petulant school child who was scolded because  I admonished you on using lies and distortions when arguing about Vaughn's abilities vs. RHP. If I am obsessed with Vaughn what does that make you? The guy who lied and told everyone that I said send him down to the minors when I did not, then didn't bother to take it out of your post after you admitted I was right.

The only thing you have left is to personally attack me.

Apparently you are obsessed with spreading falsehoods and lies and jokes at my expense because I took you out to the woodshed.

There’s a legitimate discussion to be had about the developmental benefits of playing Vaughn everyday vs. what gives us the highest likelihood of winning each day.

There’s no clear right or wrong answer.  One could certainly argue that with Abreu struggling mightily Andrew Vaughn will be even more important to the White Sox future, but at his natural position of 1B.  Along with that, the fact he simply has to learn how to hit righthanders, as he’s not going to be platooned next season.

(Of course, there’s another argument for holding onto Burger or Sheets, if Jimenez gets hurt yet again playing LF and Vaughn is still needed there...knock on wood.)

This situation...with Vaughn, Kopech and Crochet all caught up in the development vs. win now debate on a daily basis has been with the White Sox for nearly two decades as mid tier payrolls have forced GM’s into these contradictory positions.  We’re just quite fortunate the Twins collapsed, Indians tried to White Flag (minus dealing Ramirez and Bieber) and Mercedes raked the first month.  And being in the AL Central, in general.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes excuse me I said Baseball Prospectus and believe it or not I looked at that Total Zone stat you used on Baseball Reference  and saw the stat you used and spent quite a bit of time looking at it.

Basically I saw you used one column of a whole range of the Total Zone stats, 21 different defensive stats columns.17 of those columns had either a negative, 0 or no data at all  for Vaughn. This indicates he has not yet compiled the necessary stats to properly grade him or you ignored the others and just used the highest number you could find in the positive which was that 12 under the column Rtot/yr.

Rtot/yr defined is: Total Zone  The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1200 innings. This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch into a total defensive contribution , In 3 of those 4 categories there were 2 with no data at all and 1 was a 0. Vaughn has 411 innings of total in his career yet the stat clearly states it needs 1200 inning to truly calculate these things yet it gave him a 12 anyway which you used.

When I look under that same column and look at Vaughn's 2 game sample in RF I see 103. When I look up Dwight Evans Career in RF who is usually considered a great RF I see 77. Would you then think Vaughn is a better RF then Dwight Evans ? This is the danger in using small sample sizes against a larger sample size.

 

And of course it’s almost impossible to calculate how many bases and runs are saved having an arm like Evans or Larry Walker did...because you’re looking at hypotheticals.  Vaughn certainly has a much better than average arm for LF, but to what extent does that counteract all his other defensive deficiencies?  I think most Sox fans would prefer Pierre, Pods or even deAza out there.

Edited June 25, 2021 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

There’s a legitimate discussion to be had about the developmental benefits of playing Vaughn everyday vs. what gives us the highest likelihood of winning each day.

There’s no clear right or wrong answer.  One could certainly argue that with Abreu struggling mightily Andrew Vaughn will be even more important to the White Sox future, but at his natural position of 1B.  Along with that, the fact he simply has to learn how to hit righthanders, as he’s not going to be platooned next season.

(Of course, there’s another argument for holding onto Burger or Sheets, if Jimenez gets hurt yet again playing LF and Vaughn is still needed there...knock on wood.)

This situation...with Vaughn, Kopech and Crochet all caught up in the development vs. win now debate on a daily basis has been with the White Sox for nearly two decades as mid tier payrolls have forced GM’s into these contradictory positions.  We’re just quite fortunate the Twins collapsed, Indians tried to White Flag (minus dealing Ramirez and Bieber) and Mercedes raked the first month.  And being in the AL Central, in general.

Yes there is always legitimate discussion to be  had. That's hard on a message board because most people stick to 2 sentence posts. Things like sabremetric fielding stats are quite tricky and you need advanced knowledge to use them. I will freely admit that is not my forte. But I will do the research necessary.

I think OAA is quite simple. It divides the number of balls caught in the OF into 5 categories from 1 star catch through 5 star catches. 1 star is a catch everyone should make. 5 star catches are those catches only the best OF's make.  2 stars through 5 stars are catches where you have to run more than a few steps. It's range which is jump, route, burst (full speed where you cover the most ground). It shows your strength and weakness when going back ,coming in moving left or moving right) and against RHB and LHB.

It basically shows that Vaughn has only had 15 opportunities to make 2-5 Star catches .So in other words we don't yet have enough data to get a full picture on how he fields when moving over greater distances. OAA shows he makes all the catches on 1 and 2 star catches and 80% on 3  Star and 0 % on 4 and 5 star catches . This show he has been competent, decent on catches that some guys will botch. It also shows he is highly unlikely to save you any runs in the 4 and 5 Star category where greater distances need to be covered.  This isn't a huge  deal in G Rate because it is not one of the more expansive OF's . It's more of a problem on the road in bigger outfields.   But again still not enough data to get an accurate picture.

I could even say that Vaughn may be just as good as Goodwin in LF even though Goodwin  has him by leaps and bounds in speed . All data on Goodwin is also SSS based on year to year stats because he has primarily been  used the least in LF  and most in CF and RF and all in backup roles. Neither one of us can prove his point based on that .

The whole debate started when Southside Hit Men used data to say Vaughn was the 2nd best OF left on the roster . I found that hard to believe so it piqued my interest and made me ask how the heck did he come to that conclusion ? I'm still not convinced he is using them correctly because it would  take hours just to figure out everything that goes into Total Zone and I'm not sure he could explain it because maybe only the guy who developed it can explain it thoroughly.

It's just curiosity not an obsession with Vaughn per se. He's a polarizing figure much like Madrigal.

[hankchifan]

On 6/22/2021 at 12:33 PM, DirtySox said:

Can we catch a break yet? Please?

 

Have the Sox reviewed yet the current strength and conditioning program, including warm ups.?  Too many injuries are happening.

[hankchifan]

10 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

My post did say OAA is a range based stat that takes into account sprint speed,jump and read  and also route . They use video evidence that shows the players route, distance covered, and the amount of time it took them to cover that distance. So you are greatly short changing it.

I suppose I could look into your claims but I don't see how anyone can fault OAA . It's video proof based on  plenty of things measured by the microsecond. I don't even know what fielding accuracy is. If you are trying to claim Vaughn is a better LF than Leury Garcia by a wide margin that is preposterous and also applies to Brian Goodwin.

Vaughn will never ever have the speed or range or the JUMP. He's as close to the bottom in jump as you can get with a 10 rating which is based on 100 being the best. to be in positive territory in OAA . Speed is the number one factor in what makes an OF above average Sure it's not the end all be all if you can get a good jump and take good routes but Vaughn so far is terrible at getting jumps.  So even if his routes are accurate he just can't cover enough ground to get to balls other players with more speed get to. This is rudimentary stuff. 

If he is so much better than them why can't he play CF like them ? Oh yeah he's slower than shit. Oh yeah he doesn't have the range based on speed and jump to play CF. Come on now. You put Goodwin or Leury in LF and they get to more catchable bloopers , balls down the line and in the gaps faster which will mean more outs and less bases taken by runners.

Vaughn is only propped up by that Total Zone stuff that only Baseball Prospectus uses because he hasn't made any errors and G- Rate does not have an expansive OF.

According to OAA Vaughn is basically equal to Michael Brantley in the OF this year . Brantley covers a little bit more ground and runs better routes and has a better burst to the ball while Vaughn is better at reaction time.

 

With Brantley offensive firepower, he can afford to be average in the outfield.  Not so much now with Vaughn.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, hankchifan said:

Have the Sox reviewed yet the current strength and conditioning program, including warm ups.?  Too many injuries are happening.

I would be a lot more worried if all of MLB wasn't having a record year for injuries.  It's silly to overreact to something we don't even understand yet 

[ron883]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

CaliSox obsession with Vaughn is nearing that guy who's Yermin obsession must have meant his wife slept with Yermin.

She was my girlfriend, not my wife, jagoff