Internal Hitting Options (Split from Escobar thread)

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Exactly.  Getting an 80 wRC+ out over Leury isn’t moving the needle, but getting Vaughn to be league average against RHP come the stretch run could be incredibly valuable.  Given how bad this division is, we can afford to take our time with Vaughn, especially if we’re willing to make other changes.

You can also adjust on the fly.  Right now we have a lead in the AL Central.  If that falls apart you can adjust playing time up and down as needed.  But right now, with everything in your favor, you try to prepare yourself to be the best possible team in October, not June.

[Two-Gun Pete]

24 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Some of us don’t consider this an “all in year” and value the 2022 & 2023 seasons near equally.  As such, punting Vaughn’s development this early into the season is a very short-sighted move and will only delay these growing pains into next year. 

Agreed that 22 and 23, if there will be seasons that aren't interrupted by labor strife, will be important. However, every strike thrown by Lynn & Rodon are pitches that will only hasten their departures for 22 and 23. IOW, there will be other challenges to this roster THEN that may be more difficult to solve than those of today.

To the other thing, "punting Vaughns development," I ask: 

Wasn't some bum named Yoan Moncada sent down by his original org? Did that totally fuck him up, and ruin his career?

And there are others that were sent down, and whose development wasn't "punted." Why would Vaughn lose the ability to play baseball if he were sent down?

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Also we did exactly this last year.  We played the guy we viewed with a superior ceiling as much as we could until the end to try to get him to turn around in Nomar Mazara, when it became time to win, we benched him.

I do agree you could scale back more if you had guys like Eloy and Robert around, but for Brian Goodwin and Jake Lamb?  For Luis Gonzalez?  Eh.

And how did that work with Mazara? Did he magically learn how to hit while getting absolutely humiliated all year long in MLB?

Did he become the golden god we were promised? Or did he just continue to suck out loud? And how did his team fare? Did the white sox do well in the postseason?

 

All kidding aside, I believe in Vaughns talent way more than I did in Mazara. (Actually, I've always believed that Mazara was one of the suckiest sucks who ever sucked, but thats beside the point.)

I just look at Vaughn, and see a talented youngster who's a bit out of his depth right now. He looks like a guy who's never played above A+. And he's neither helping his team, nor helping himself right now.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed that 22 and 23, if there will be seasons that aren't interrupted by labor strife, will be important. However, every strike thrown by Lynn & Rodon are pitches that will only hasten their departures for 22 and 23. IOW, there will be other challenges to this roster THEN that may be more difficult to solve than those of today.

To the other thing, "punting Vaughns development," I ask: 

Wasn't some bum named Yoan Moncada sent down by his original org? Did that totally fuck him up, and ruin his career?

And there are others that were sent down, and whose development wasn't "punted." Why would Vaughn lose the ability to play baseball if he were sent down?

And how did that work with Mazara? Did he magically learn how to hit while getting absolutely humiliated all year long in MLB?

Did he become the golden god we were promised? Or did he just continue to suck out loud? And how did his team fare? Did the white sox do well in the postseason?

 

All kidding aside, I believe in Vaughns talent way more than I did in Mazara. (Actually, I've always believed that Mazara was one of the suckiest sucks who ever sucked, but thats beside the point.)

I just look at Vaughn, and see a talented youngster who's a bit out of his depth right now. He looks like a guy who's never played above A+. And he's neither helping his team, nor helping himself right now.

Golden God?

Uh, as a post, these are some words.

[chitownsportsfan]

31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Exactly.  Getting an 80 wRC+ out over Leury isn’t moving the needle, but getting Vaughn to be league average against RHP come the stretch run could be incredibly valuable.  Given how bad this division is, we can afford to take our time with Vaughn, especially if we’re willing to make other changes.

He isn’t going to magically turn into a solid hitter against RHP in the 200 PA between now and September.  Ideally he’d be sent down to AAA but Sox have had their hand forced due to all the injuries.  At this point prolly best to try and limit him against RHP once Godwin is healthy or Engel.  Which shit, that’s where they are at these injuries are just horrible.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah, it's gotten so bad to the point where we are yearnin for Hamilton haha

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He isn’t going to magically turn into a solid hitter against RHP in the 200 PA between now and September.  Ideally he’d be sent down to AAA but Sox have had their hand forced due to all the injuries.  At this point prolly best to try and limit him against RHP once Godwin is healthy or Engel.  Which shit, that’s where they are at these injuries are just horrible.

He might. He was the best hitter in college a few years ago and has faced plenty of RHP, just not at this level. He will figure it out.

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He isn’t going to magically turn into a solid hitter against RHP in the 200 PA between now and September.  Ideally he’d be sent down to AAA but Sox have had their hand forced due to all the injuries.  At this point prolly best to try and limit him against RHP once Godwin is healthy or Engel.  Which shit, that’s where they are at these injuries are just horrible.

He isn't going to magically learn how to hit major league pitching at AAA.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

Giving him at bats to see if he can improve possibly helps their chances to win a World Series.

Wouldn't playing guys with better stats than him also give the Sox a better chance to win the World Series not just possibly but literally?

I was just told " I also don't think playing any of those guys over Vaughn puts the Sox in a better position to win now." 

Let's say I am a Mercedes fanboy but he is in a tremendous slump and I don't want him playing any more because I know he is hurting the team  so lets look at his stats against RHP even after this horrendous slump and compare them to Vaughn vs RHP.

Vaughn : .230 OBP .238 Slg. and .468 OPS

Mercedes : .302 OBP .359 slg .661 OPS

Now lets look at Away ( road) splits vs RHP

Vaughn : .182 OBP .167  Slg.  .348 OPS This is about as bad as it gets

Mercedes : .279 OBP .333 Slg .612 OPS This is also pretty bad but considerably better than Vaughn even after the Grand Canyonesque slump.

Vaughn's Away splits make his overall splits vs. RHP look like All Star numbers . They are that bad. The Sox record right now on the road is 17-18 and that was accomplished with Mercedes contributing way more to their road and overall record than Vaughn against RHP

Yet I keep being told that " There are no better options than Vaughn in LF right now." so once again vs. RHP

Vaughn : .230 OBP, .238 Slg.,  .468 OPS (.348 on the road)

Lamb .333 OBP,  .444  slg., 778 OPS  (.800 on the road)

Leury : .319 OBP, .336 Slg, .665 OPS, (.638 on the road)

Goodwin: .462 OBP, .714 Slg., 1.176 OPS (1.300 on the road)

It would seem to me there are 3 better options no matter what anyone wants to say about them the stats don't lie.  Every one of those guys is substantially better than Vaughn in all 4 categories listed OBP, SLG, OPS and Road OPS .You can quibble with Goodwin's SSS or about who the better fielder is and lets face it Vaughn isn't out there to win games with his fielding or baserunning  so hitting is pretty much all you have to look at even though it's apparent Leury and Goodwin will contribute more to base running.

Also right now Leury or Goodwin will be playing CF and it's possible Lamb could DH against RHP more. So far he has only played 3 games as the DH. So yes now with the thin choices, I can still say there are better options since I doubt all 3 better options will be in the lineup all the time vs. RHP. If all 3 do play every day against RHP lets say in CF RF and DH then Vaughn would have to play In LF. He's going to Play LF anyway even in games where TLR still decides to use Mercedes, Collins or Grandal at DH.

With the Sox starting pitching there is a thin line between winning and losing now without Mercedes contributing what he once did Abreu slumping and Vaughns cold bat all season against RHP.

Even incremental upgrades will help win games. Playing guys who hit better than Vaughn vs RHP will make a difference in winning games especially on the road. All 3  have an OPS .200 better than Vaughn and even higher on the road.

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Wouldn't giving guys with better stats than him also give the Sox a better chance to win the World Series not just possibly but literally?

I was just told " I also don't think playing any of those guys over Vaughn puts the Sox in a better position to win now." 

Let's say I am a Mercedes fanboy but he is in a tremendous slump and I don't want him playing any more because I know he is hurting the team  so lets look at his stats against RHP even after this horrendous slump and compare them to Vaughn vs RHP.

Vaughn : .230 OBP .238 Slg. and .468 OPS

Mercedes : .302 OBP .359 slg .661 OPS

Now lets look at Away ( road) splits vs RHP

Vaughn : .182 OBP .167  Slg.  .348 OPS This is about as bad as it gets

Mercedes : .279 OBP .333 Slg .612 OPS This is also pretty bad but considerably better than Vaughn even after the Grand Canyonesque slump.

Vaughn's Away splits make his overall splits vs. RHP look like All Star numbers . They are that bad. The Sox record right now on the road is 17-18 and that was accomplished with Mercedes contributing way more to their road and overall record than Vaughn against RHP

Yet I keep being told that " There are no better options than Vaughn in LF right now." so once again vs. RHP

Vaughn : .230 OBP, .238 Slg.,  .468 OPS (.348 on the road)

Lamb .333 OBP,  .444  slg., 778 OPS  (.800 on the road)

Leury : .319 OBP, .336 Slg, .665 OPS, (.638 on the road)

Goodwin: .462 OBP, .714 Slg., 1.176 OPS (1.300 on the road)

It would seem to me there are 3 better options no matter what anyone wants to say about them the stats don't lie.  Every one of those guys is substantially better than Vaughn in all 4 categories listed OBP, SLG, OPS and Road OPS .You can quibble with Goodwin's SSS or about who the better fielder is and lets face it Vaughn isn't out there to win games with his fielding or baserunning  so hitting is pretty much all you have to look at even though it's apparent Leury and Goodwin will contribute more to base running.

Also right now Leury or Goodwin will be playing CF and it's possible Lamb could DH against RHP more. So far he has only played 3 games as the DH. So yes now with the thin choices, I can still say there are better options since I doubt all 3 better options will be in the lineup all the time vs. RHP. If all 3 do play every day against RHP lets say in CF RF and DH then Vaughn would have to play In LF. He's going to Play LF anyway even in games where TLR still decides to use Mercedes, Collins or Grandal at DH.

With the Sox starting pitching their is a thin line between winning and losing now without Mercedes contributing what he once did Abreu slumping and Vaughns cold bat all season against RHP.

Even incremental upgrades will help win games. Playing guys who hit better than Vaughn vs RHP will make a difference in winning games especially on the road. All 3  have an OPS .200 better than Vaughn and even higher on the road.

 

 

 

I feel like it's moot point knowing that all of those guys can be in the lineup against righties (Leury 2B, Vaughn LF, Goodwin CF, Lamb RF).

Edit: I also just noticed we are only playing with a 3-man bench right now.

Edited June 25, 2021 by manbearpuig

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed that 22 and 23, if there will be seasons that aren't interrupted by labor strife, will be important. However, every strike thrown by Lynn & Rodon are pitches that will only hasten their departures for 22 and 23. IOW, there will be other challenges to this roster THEN that may be more difficult to solve than those of today.

To the other thing, "punting Vaughns development," I ask: 

Wasn't some bum named Yoan Moncada sent down by his original org? Did that totally fuck him up, and ruin his career?

And there are others that were sent down, and whose development wasn't "punted." Why would Vaughn lose the ability to play baseball if he were sent down?

And how did that work with Mazara? Did he magically learn how to hit while getting absolutely humiliated all year long in MLB?

Did he become the golden god we were promised? Or did he just continue to suck out loud? And how did his team fare? Did the white sox do well in the postseason?

 

All kidding aside, I believe in Vaughns talent way more than I did in Mazara. (Actually, I've always believed that Mazara was one of the suckiest sucks who ever sucked, but thats beside the point.)

I just look at Vaughn, and see a talented youngster who's a bit out of his depth right now. He looks like a guy who's never played above A+. And he's neither helping his team, nor helping himself right now.

I’d be fine with sending down Vaughn if we had other legitimately good options but we don’t.  And the issue development wise isn’t sending him down, but rather delaying his learning on how to hit a major league slider which is his primary problem at the moment.

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

He isn't going to magically learn how to hit major league pitching at AAA.

he has a wRC+ of like 50 against RHP. He's in danger of creating bad habits.  That said, it is what it is.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’d be fine with sending down Vaughn if we had other legitimately good options but we don’t.  And the issue development wise isn’t sending him down, but rather delaying his learning on how to hit a major league slider which is his primary problem at the moment.

I've been full aboard the "sending down Vaughn IF/when everyone else is healthy" train myself.

Edited June 25, 2021 by manbearpuig

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Wouldn't playing guys with better stats than him also give the Sox a better chance to win the World Series not just possibly but literally?

I was just told " I also don't think playing any of those guys over Vaughn puts the Sox in a better position to win now." 

Let's say I am a Mercedes fanboy but he is in a tremendous slump and I don't want him playing any more because I know he is hurting the team  so lets look at his stats against RHP even after this horrendous slump and compare them to Vaughn vs RHP.

Vaughn : .230 OBP .238 Slg. and .468 OPS

Mercedes : .302 OBP .359 slg .661 OPS

Now lets look at Away ( road) splits vs RHP

Vaughn : .182 OBP .167  Slg.  .348 OPS This is about as bad as it gets

Mercedes : .279 OBP .333 Slg .612 OPS This is also pretty bad but considerably better than Vaughn even after the Grand Canyonesque slump.

Vaughn's Away splits make his overall splits vs. RHP look like All Star numbers . They are that bad. The Sox record right now on the road is 17-18 and that was accomplished with Mercedes contributing way more to their road and overall record than Vaughn against RHP

Yet I keep being told that " There are no better options than Vaughn in LF right now." so once again vs. RHP

Vaughn : .230 OBP, .238 Slg.,  .468 OPS (.348 on the road)

Lamb .333 OBP,  .444  slg., 778 OPS  (.800 on the road)

Leury : .319 OBP, .336 Slg, .665 OPS, (.638 on the road)

Goodwin: .462 OBP, .714 Slg., 1.176 OPS (1.300 on the road)

It would seem to me there are 3 better options no matter what anyone wants to say about them the stats don't lie.  Every one of those guys is substantially better than Vaughn in all 4 categories listed OBP, SLG, OPS and Road OPS .You can quibble with Goodwin's SSS or about who the better fielder is and lets face it Vaughn isn't out there to win games with his fielding or baserunning  so hitting is pretty much all you have to look at even though it's apparent Leury and Goodwin will contribute more to base running.

Also right now Leury or Goodwin will be playing CF and it's possible Lamb could DH against RHP more. So far he has only played 3 games as the DH. So yes now with the thin choices, I can still say there are better options since I doubt all 3 better options will be in the lineup all the time vs. RHP. If all 3 do play every day against RHP lets say in CF RF and DH then Vaughn would have to play In LF. He's going to Play LF anyway even in games where TLR still decides to use Mercedes, Collins or Grandal at DH.

With the Sox starting pitching their is a thin line between winning and losing now without Mercedes contributing what he once did Abreu slumping and Vaughns cold bat all season against RHP.

Even incremental upgrades will help win games. Playing guys who hit better than Vaughn vs RHP will make a difference in winning games especially on the road. All 3  have an OPS .200 better than Vaughn and even higher on the road.

 

 

 

Let me keep this simple.

Playing Andrew Vaughn isn't about his stats today or anyone else's stats today.

Playing Andrew Vaughn is about trying to get your best possible team ready for October.

If you want to win series in October, getting Andrew Vaughn to be able to regularly hit major league pitching like his ceiling is able to do is going to make you A MUCH better team in October than Jake Lamb or Brian Goodwin doing exactly what they have done in recent years.  These guys were unemployed in April for a reason.  They are the White Sox 3rd string of OFs for a reason.

If you can get me an OF that makes us better in October, I will listen to that logic, but the guys we have now, aren't it.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He isn’t going to magically turn into a solid hitter against RHP in the 200 PA between now and September.  Ideally he’d be sent down to AAA but Sox have had their hand forced due to all the injuries.  At this point prolly best to try and limit him against RHP once Godwin is healthy or Engel.  Which shit, that’s where they are at these injuries are just horrible.

Fully disagree.  Development isn’t linear and a hitter as gifted as Vaughn can transform over 200 PAs, especially when his baseline is a 40 wRC+.

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

he has a wRC+ of like 50 against RHP. He's in danger of creating bad habits.  That said, it is what it is.

I think the danger is overblown from what I have seen, but that is up to the coaching staff to keep an eye on.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Let me keep this simple.

Playing Andrew Vaughn isn't about his stats today or anyone else's stats today.

Playing Andrew Vaughn is about trying to get your best possible team ready for October.

If you want to win series in October, getting Andrew Vaughn to be able to regularly hit major league pitching like his has the ceiling to be able to do is going to make you A MUCH better team in October than Jake Lamb or Brian Goodwin doing exactly what they have done in recent years.  These guys were unemployed in April for a reason.  They are the White Sox 3rd string of OFs for a reason.

If you can get me an OF that makes us better in October, I will listen to that logic, but the guys we have now, aren't it.

I'll also make this simple. Andrew Vaughn has been so bad against RHP he would have to substantially improve just to reach Leury's level of bad. Also Andrew Vaughn is having the worst month of his season thus far. Expecting him to improve to a level that helps the Sox through the rest of the season and through the playoff is a tall order in which there is probably less than a 50/50 chance of that kind of improvement given what he has done so far.

I also don't not care anything about why Goodwin or Leury or Lamb are here. All I do is look at the stats. I don't expect them to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn. I can only go by what's in front of me now.

If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'll also make this simple. Andrew Vaughn has been so bad against RHP he would have to substantially improve just to reach Leury's level of bad. Also Andrew Vaughn is having the worst month of his season thus far. Expecting him to improve to a level that helps the Sox through the rest of the season and through the playoff is a tall order in which there is probably less than a 50/50 chance of that kind of improvement given what he has done so far.

I also don't not care anything about why Goodwin or Leury or Lamb are here. All I do is look at the stats. I don't expect them to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn. I can only go by what's in front of me now.

If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve.

 

He won't improve as a weak side platoon player.  Even if your arbitrary 50/50 odds are accurate, that is way higher than what they would become with Vaughn sitting out most games waiting for a favorable lefty pitcher match up.

As for the middle paragraph, this isn't what stats are for.  They are a snapshot in time in a dynamic game.  A guy hitting .333 isn't getting a hit every 3 ABs, and shouldn't be expected to do so going forward.  This even more important when looking at talented young players who are going to whip between extremes just by their very nature.  Literally no one is going to put up the exact same ratios of their stats for the rest of the season, so mapping out the season based on that is an exercise in futility.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

He won't improve as a weak side platoon player.  Even if your arbitrary 50/50 odds are accurate, that is way higher than what they would become with Vaughn sitting out most games waiting for a favorable lefty pitcher match up.

As for the middle paragraph, this isn't what stats are for.  They are a snapshot in time in a dynamic game.  A guy hitting .333 isn't getting a hit every 3 ABs, and shouldn't be expected to do so going forward.  This even more important when looking at talented young players who are going to whip between extremes just by their very nature.  Literally no one is going to put up the exact same ratios of their stats for the rest of the season, so mapping out the season based on that is an exercise in futility.

Once again who are you arguing with ? I never said he should  play as a weak side platoon . I said " It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP."

As for your last paragraph. I also said "I don't expect them (the stats) to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn."  If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve. "

You are literally , once again ,telling me things and arguing points I didn't make. It's right there in black and white and I repeated it here for your edification.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't expect them to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn. I can only go by what's in front of me now.

Once again who are you arguing with ? I never said he should  play as a weak side platoon . I said " It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP."

As for your last paragraph. I also said "I don't expect them to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn."  If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve. "

You are literally once again telling me things and arguing points I didn't make. It's right there in black and white and I repeated it here for your edification.

 

That's the entire problem.  You are setting up an imaginary standard.  I am arguing reality.  If you want to live somewhere that everything is made up, there isn't a debate to be had here.

[South Side Hit Men]

Vaughn has improved throughout the month:

• Last 7 days OPS .717
• Last 14 days OPS .643
• Last 28 days OPS .564

I'm more concerned about Abreu, since he needs to be a top 3 producer for the Sox to go far in October, though still confident he can regain his timing and begin being able to hit the heat soon. Just needs to lay off of the bad outside pitches.

• Abreu June OPS .502
• Vaughn June OPS .604
• Abreu April OPS .690
• Vaughn April OPS .725
• Vaughn May OPS .733
• Abreu May OPS 1.053

[pcq]

Hard to truly evaluate a guy until he has played for Tony. Tony makes these guys into heroes.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's the entire problem.  You are setting up an imaginary standard.  I am arguing reality.  If you want to live somewhere that everything is made up, there isn't a debate to be had here.

Please explain to me this imaginary standard. Are current stats imaginary ? Are having reasonable expectations that LH veteran hitters such as Leury , Lamb and Goodwin will continue to outshine Vaughn ,a RH hitter, against RHP ? How is everything made up? I only used stats. You made up what my argument was.

Is it an imaginary standard that the Sox are under .500 on the road and saying that Vaughns  splits against RHP are miserable overall and if there is a level  beyond miserable he has been that on the road ?

Is it imaginary that I said if Vaughn can improve against RHP because he will get playing time against them that I would be thrilled ?

The only thing that you said that is reality  it's that there isn't a debate to be had here because ,as usual, you continue to debate things I said only in your imagination.

I said one arbitrary thing which is Vaughn has a 50/50 chance of improving enough vs. RHP enough to make a difference this year in the playoffs . That isn't unreasonable is it ? What do you think the odds are of that happening? Tell me the type of line that he will put up in the 2nd half that would make him the best choice to be played in the playoffs vs RHP. Give me something ,a  minimal OBP, SLG , OPS independent of his 1st half stats that we can shoot for .

 

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Please explain to me this imaginary standard. Are current stats imaginary ? Are having reasonable expectations that LH veteran hitters such as Leury , Lamb and Goodwin will continue to outshine Vaughn ,a RH hitter, against RHP ? How is everything made up? I only used stats. You made up what my argument was.

Is it an imaginary standard that the Sox are under .500 on the road and saying that Vaughns  splits against RHP are miserable overall and if there is a level  beyond miserable he has been that on the road ?

Is it imaginary that I said if Vaughn can improve against RHP because he will get playing time against them that I would be thrilled ?

The only thing that you said that is reality  it's that there isn't a debate to be had here because ,as usual, you continue to debate things I said only in your imagination.

I said one arbitrary thing which is Vaughn has a 50/50 chance of improving enough vs. RHP enough to make a difference this year in the playoffs . That isn't unreasonable is it ? What do you think the odds are of that happening? Tell me the type of line that he will put up in the 2nd half that would make him the best choice to be played in the playoffs vs RHP. Give me something ,a  minimal OBP, SLG , OPS independent of his 1st half stats that we can shoot for .

 

Because current stats aren't static.  They change as you play games.  That is the literal point.  Player will get better and worse than what they currently are.  There is zero chance that Andrew Vaughn has a 38 OPS+ against RHP by the end of the season, and none of the players you keep pushing will have their same numbers at the end of the season.  In fact the more you play them, the more likely they are to see their numbers take a dive because they are crappy players.  They have a history of being crappy players, who are currently just being played in favorable match ups.  The more you play them, the more exposed they become.

The house of sand that everything can only be determined by their stats today, and that it is the only thing you care about is an imaginary standard.  We are going to play about 90 more games this season to get to October.  I care about progress through the rest of the season, because I know Andrew Vaughn is the one guy out of that group with a real chance to get better the more he plays, unlike the rest of them.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Vaughn has improved throughout the month:

• Last 7 days OPS .717
• Last 14 days OPS .643
• Last 28 days OPS .564

I'm more concerned about Abreu, since he needs to be a top 3 producer for the Sox to go far in October, though still confident he can regain his timing and begin being able to hit the heat soon. Just needs to lay off of the bad outside pitches.

• Abreu June OPS .502
• Vaughn June OPS .604
• Abreu April OPS .690
• Vaughn April OPS .725
• Vaughn May OPS .733
• Abreu May OPS 1.053

Every time I see people use stats to support  Vaughn they use his total numbers. Why is it so hard to use his stats against RHP ? His stats are boosted by his great ability to hit LHP   .  Any arguments I make are strictly regarding his stats against RHP. I fully acknowledge his awesomeness against LHP. I also fully support Vaughn getting  perhaps 75+ %  of the AB's vs. RHP we will face while Eloy, Robert, Engel, Hamilton and Eaton are out. How often he plays against RHP after those guys return is totally based upon how he fares vs RHP until then.

But I do agree that the lineup is bad against both RHP and against LHP and that Abreu's slump, the lose of Mercedes early exploits and losing Madrigal has hurt the line up tremendously. We can only hope Lamb, Leury and Goodwin continue to provide as much as they have so far.

[Lillian]

It does make sense to be thinking about the roster for the Post Season. However, it's also important to be mindful of the possibility that they won't make it, unless they field a competitive offense. Moreover, as has been mentioned, limping in as a wild card, or having a lower winning percentage could mean much tougher Post Season match ups.

It's also important to factor in Eloy and Robert, by that time. If they acquire one decent left handed power bat, the lineup should be fine, without Vaughn.  I love the kid and think that he will become a middle of the order bat, for many years to come. For now, it's understandable that some are more interested in this year. Once we have everyone back, minus Madrigal, the lineup might look something like the following vs. RHP, with 4 LH power bats (3 of them switch hitters) and overall solid defense:

SS  Anderson

3B  Moncada     SH

1B  Abreu

DH  Eloy

2B   LH Bat (Escobar) SH

CF   Robert

C     Grandal       SH

LF   Lamb           LH

RF   Engel 

I left Eaton out of the equation, as I just have no confidence that he can stay healthy and productive. Vaughn would be a great piece to insert into the lineup vs. LHP, perhaps platooning with Lamb in LF, in the Post Season.  Why not let him work on his approach versus RHP, in AAA and gain that extra year of service time?

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lillian