Will We Ever See the Full Impact of Jimenez and Robert ?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Will the Sox ever see the full potential of Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert ? Seems like a pretty simple question on the surface. With young guns like Guerrero , Jr. and Fernando Tatis, jr. currently setting the baseball world on fire how do you feel about it.

This might have been the year to expect huge breakouts from Eloy and La Pantera but in their short careers we have only caught glimpses of the huge upside for both. Both seem to be off the field more than they are on it. Maybe an even more important question is will we ever see it in the same season where both Jimenez and Robert play 140+ games  ?

I know it's in our nature as Sox fans to temper expectations or think that everything that can go wrong will go wrong . So far that's been pretty accurate with Jimenez and Robert.

Their potential impact is huge . Will they ever reach it ?

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Thad Bosley]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Will the Sox ever see the full potential of Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert ? Seems like a pretty simple question on the surface. With young guns like Guerrero , Jr. and Fernando Tatis, jr. currently setting the baseball world on fire how do you feel about it.

This might have been the year to expect huge breakouts from Eloy and La Pantera but in their short careers we have only caught glimpses of the huge upside for both. Both seem to be off the field more than they are on it. Maybe an even more important question is will we ever see it in the same season where both Jimenez and Robert play 140+ games  ?

I know it's in our nature as Sox fans to temper expectations or think that everything that can go wrong will go wrong . So far that's been pretty accurate with Jimenez and Robert.

Their potential impact is huge . Will they ever reach it ?

 

One would think youth being on both of their sides should enable each to reach their enormous potential.  The only question from my view is any long term after effects of each of their serious injuries.  

I think Eloy has a much better chance of reaching his offensive potential if he’s put at DH full time.  I do worry about other potential serious injuries in the outfield with him in the future.

[Sox80]

This hasn't been talked about enough. 

[NWINFan]

The first real question centers on what impact they will have when they return this season. So many are counting on them turning this sad-sack offense around. But they will be coming off injuries and a long layoff. We can only speculate on how they will perform. The season doesn't look so bright now.

In the long run, they should do well. Each has a load of talent, and other players have rebounded from injuries. But this does hurt their short-term development. They can't grow as major leaguers sitting on the IL.

[The Kids Can Play]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Will the Sox ever see the full potential of Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert ? Seems like a pretty simple question on the surface. With young guns like Guerrero , Jr. and Fernando Tatis, jr. currently setting the baseball world on fire how do you feel about it.

This might have been the year to expect huge breakouts from Eloy and La Pantera but in their short careers we have only caught glimpses of the huge upside for both. Both seem to be off the field more than they are on it. Maybe an even more important question is will we ever see it in the same season where both Jimenez and Robert play 140+ games  ?

I know it's in our nature as Sox fans to temper expectations or think that everything that can go wrong will go wrong . So far that's been pretty accurate with Jimenez and Robert.

Their potential impact is huge . Will they ever reach it ?

 

I think they both will be big stars. I do feel Eloy needs to be at DH, as his fielding is weak and he seems to be injury prone out there. In a normal year I think Eloy hits 40-45 HR's and 100 plus RBI's. If Mercedes doesn't start hitting again, then putting Eloy at DH and not left will be an easy choice.

One the reasons Abreu is having an off season is there is nobody protecting him. Jose always feels he has to carry the team and make something happen. When we get Eloy back in the lineup right behind Abreu, I think Jose will see more good pitches and start hitting again, like he did last year when Eloy was behind him. 

As far as Robert goes, I think he will be a star too. Prior to his injury he was already having a great season with .316/.359/.463/.822 and obviously playing and covering centerfield as well as anyone in MLB. Most importantly he learned form last season to be patient and not swing at so many pitches out of the zone. He will only get better than his plate discipline over time. I think in a healthy 145-150 game plus season Robert hits 30-35 HR's and hits for a good average. 

I still believe both Robert and Eloy will be back in early August and by the time we head into the playoffs, which hopefully we won't screw up, I think they both will have shaken the rust off and be huge contributors in the playoffs. 

Losing Eloy and Robert and then Madrigal and now Engel again, has alarmed Hahn enough, that by next season he secures a brand new staff of coaches for strength and flexibility and medical advice.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Will the Sox ever see the full potential of Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert ? Seems like a pretty simple question on the surface. With young guns like Guerrero , Jr. and Fernando Tatis, jr. currently setting the baseball world on fire how do you feel about it.

This might have been the year to expect huge breakouts from Eloy and La Pantera but in their short careers we have only caught glimpses of the huge upside for both. Both seem to be off the field more than they are on it. Maybe an even more important question is will we ever see it in the same season where both Jimenez and Robert play 140+ games  ?

I know it's in our nature as Sox fans to temper expectations or think that everything that can go wrong will go wrong . So far that's been pretty accurate with Jimenez and Robert.

Their potential impact is huge . Will they ever reach it ?

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/best-no-1-prospects-in-mlb-history

While neither of Robert/Jimenez...or Tatis/Soto/Acuna officially made #1 prospect, this list is pretty interesting.

Especially if we think of guys like Delmon Young, Heyward, Buxton, Benintendi, Profar and Bruce.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I think they both will be big stars. I do feel Eloy needs to be at DH, as his fielding is weak and he seems to be injury prone out there. In a normal year I think Eloy hits 40-45 HR's and 100 plus RBI's. If Mercedes doesn't start hitting again, then putting Eloy at DH and not left will be an easy choice.

One the reasons Abreu is having an off season is there is nobody protecting him. Jose always feels he has to carry the team and make something happen. When we get Eloy back in the lineup right behind Abreu, I think Jose will see more good pitches and start hitting again, like he did last year when Eloy was behind him. 

As far as Robert goes, I think he will be a star too. Prior to his injury he was already having a great season with .316/.359/.463/.822 and obviously playing and covering centerfield as well as anyone in MLB. Most importantly he learned form last season to be patient and not swing at so many pitches out of the zone. He will only get better than his plate discipline over time. I think in a healthy 145-150 game plus season Robert hits 30-35 HR's and hits for a good average. 

I still believe both Robert and Eloy will be back in early August and by the time we head into the playoffs, which hopefully we won't screw up, I think they both will have shaken the rust off and be huge contributors in the playoffs. 

Losing Eloy and Robert and then Madrigal and now Engel again, has alarmed Hahn enough, that by next season he secures a brand new staff of coaches for strength and flexibility and medical advice.

 

 

 

 

That last sentence, you’d have to fire the training staffs of 20-25 teams going by this year’s IL...not to mention another possible work stoppage next season. There certainly will be a more thorough investigation of what players did on their own from spring training last year through June/July and also this past offseason again.

After all, it was Hahn just as much as anyone who was forced into the desperate situation of bringing Engel back as early as possible after the original injury.

Another example, Mike Soroka of the Braves just reinjured his Achilles, not unlike Burger...who is that on?  It’s not like he is the same size, either.  What about the Glasnow allegations, blaming the commissioner for changing how pitchers grip the ball in midseason?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/how-sports-science-has-impacted-the-taxing-nba-season-005329202.html

Edited June 27, 2021 by caulfield12

[South Side Fireworks Man]

3 hours ago, NWINFan said:

The first real question centers on what impact they will have when they return this season. So many are counting on them turning this sad-sack offense around. But they will be coming off injuries and a long layoff. We can only speculate on how they will perform. The season doesn't look so bright now.

In the long run, they should do well. Each has a load of talent, and other players have rebounded from injuries. But this does hurt their short-term development. They can't grow as major leaguers sitting on the IL.

This.  And even if the Sox finally wake up and put Eloy at full time DH where he belongs, the Sox are still weak at the corner outfield positions and if Abreu is really washed up as it's beginning to appear, and if Moncada's power doesn't reappear, the Sox will be weak at the infield corners as well.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

This.  And even if the Sox finally wake up and put Eloy at full time DH where he belongs, the Sox are still weak at the corner outfield positions and if Abreu is really washed up as it's beginning to appear, and if Moncada's power doesn't reappear, the Sox will be weak at the infield corners as well.

The rebuild was always predicated on two of three (Jimenez, Moncada and Robert) being superstars or at least All-Stars.  And TA7 continuing to do what he does so well. 

[South Side Hit Men]

 

2 hours ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

This.  And even if the Sox finally wake up and put Eloy at full time DH where he belongs, the Sox are still weak at the corner outfield positions and if Abreu is really washed up as it's beginning to appear, and if Moncada's power doesn't reappear, the Sox will be weak at the infield corners as well.

Moncada is the top 3B in MLB. and has the 19th highest fWAR in MLB. How the hell is he considered weak? This board, and Steve Stone, is truly baffling when it comes to Yoan.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31

 

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

Moncada is the top 3B in MLB. and has the 19th highest fWAR in MLB. How the hell is he considered weak? This board, and Steve Stone, is truly baffling when it comes to Yoan.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31

 

They’re looking at disappointing homer numbers and not XB hits.

Same can be applied to Robert’s first month of 2021.

That said, Eduardo Escobar has 17 homers and 51 RBI’s already, and some are dissatisfied with those numbers since his ops is “only” around 775.

Edited June 27, 2021 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They’re looking at disappointing homer numbers and not XB hits.

Same can be applied to Robert’s first month of 2021.

That said, Eduardo Escobar has 17 homers and 51 RBI’s already, and some are dissatisfied with those numbers since his ops is “only” around 775.

It's a lot easier to grab talent at the corner OFers than a top 3B. He's a perfect 2 hole hitter or even leadoff. Sees a lot of pitches, gets on base a lot, has good gap power, wouldn't write him off turning 26 and coming of COVID. If only he dropped his batting average 100 points for a few more homers, he'd be the consensus MVP or "only good player in the lineup", at least in this bizarro world clamoring for an everyday OF of Gonzalez, Goodwin and Lamb, or dumping Crochet for some garbage rental.

2021 White Sox fWAR Leaders:

1. Carlos Rodon 2.8
2. Yoan Moncada 2.7
3. Lance Lynn 2.1
4. Dylan Cease 2.0
5. Tim Anderson 1.8

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

It's a lot easier to grab talent at the corner OFers than a top 3B. He's a perfect 2 hole hitter or even leadoff. Sees a lot of pitches, gets on base a lot, has good gap power, wouldn't write him off turning 26 and coming of COVID. If only he dropped his batting average 100 points for a few more homers, he'd be the consensus MVP or "only good player in the lineup", at least in this bizarro world clamoring for an everyday OF of Gonzalez, Goodwin and Lamb, or dumping Crochet for some garbage rental.

2021 White Sox fWAR Leaders:

1. Carlos Rodon 2.8
2. Yoan Moncada 2.7
3. Lance Lynn 2.1
4. Dylan Cease 2.0
5. Tim Anderson 1.8

I think you’re severely overvaluing Crochet based on the 2020 version.

We might never see that stuff again, certainly not as a starter.

He could be Sale II, but just as likely another Ring, Burdi or Poreda.

 

But he does suffer for not having the flashiness or flamboyance of those other big names we keep mentioning.  He’s also 2-4 years older, and seemingly bee around forever, like Benintendi, so there’s some excitement fatigue with him as well compared to his first season after being acquired.  Finally, the constant comparisons to Devers, as well.

While not a disappointment, exactly, there’s also not the sense he’s playing to his full potential either.  Hence, the comments from Stone and others.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I think you’re severely overvaluing Crochet based on the 2020 version.

We might never see that stuff again, certainly not as a starter.

He could be Sale II, but just as likely another Ring, Burdi or Poreda.

 

But he does suffer for not having the flashiness or flamboyance of those other big names we keep mentioning.  He’s also 2-4 years older, and seemingly bee around forever, like Benintendi, so there’s some excitement fatigue with him as well compared to his first season after being acquired.  Finally, the constant comparisons to Devers, as well.

While not a disappointment, exactly, there’s also not the sense he’s playing to his full potential either.  Hence, the comments from Stone and others.

Not sure how can you say that I'm "severely overvaluing Crochet". I didn't specify any trades, other than a reference to general garbage names thrown out over time.

He needs to be given a chance to stretch out and work on a 3 pitch repertoire. People are making a judgement base don a short sample out of the bullpen. Crochet needs to attempt to be a starter before anyone can make a judgement on his future. Selling Crochet cheap because our GM pissed away his money on duds like Eaton and Parrot, and overpays the previous season is a poor use of top draft capital. 

[The Kids Can Play]

13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

That last sentence, you’d have to fire the training staffs of 20-25 teams going by this year’s IL...not to mention another possible work stoppage next season. There certainly will be a more thorough investigation of what players did on their own from spring training last year through June/July and also this past offseason again.

After all, it was Hahn just as much as anyone who was forced into the desperate situation of bringing Engel back as early as possible after the original injury.

Another example, Mike Soroka of the Braves just reinjured his Achilles, not unlike Burger...who is that on?  It’s not like he is the same size, either.  What about the Glasnow allegations, blaming the commissioner for changing how pitchers grip the ball in midseason?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/how-sports-science-has-impacted-the-taxing-nba-season-005329202.html

I don't care what the other 20-25 MLB teams do, I only care about what the White Sox do. Other than Eloy's injury which isn't the fault of the training staff, the other injuries are directly correlated to the training staff. Something has to be examined in why so many injuries are happening and for stupid reasons like running down the first base path to run out a single like Robert and Madrigal did. 

Here is an good technical article on the logical explanation for why players are injuring their hamstrings more. 

https://www.mlb.com/news/why-are-there-so-many-mlb-hamstring-injuries-c236844162

The point of the story is players have built up their upper and lower body greatly in the off season, but maybe there isn't enough attention to detail for some quick exercises right before each at bat to get the legs ready. Maybe more quality stretching in the dugout. This article spells this out as well any article I've read on this. Why cant our players be more like pro basketball players for example. When a basketball player comes off the bench to in and they have been sitting for awhile, you see them on the sidelines doing all types of quick exercises to get loose. You rarely see that in baseball. Yes, baseball players stretch before the game, but during the game they probably rarely stretch much again. 

I'm just saying if I were Hahn, I would be looking into a brand new medical/training/fitness/flexibility staff that has the most up to date knowledge on this area of concern. Most importantly a staff that can make sure they get the players onboard with a different program and stay consistent with it. Let's face it, a new staff couldn't do any worse. Sadly this might never happen, but it should.

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't care what the other 20-25 MLB teams do, I only care about what the White Sox do. Other than Eloy's injury which isn't the fault of the training staff, the other injuries are directly correlated to the training staff. Something has to be examined in why so many injuries are happening and for stupid reasons like running down the first base path to run out a single like Robert and Madrigal did. 

Here is an good technical article on the logical explanation for why players are injuring their hamstrings more. 

https://www.mlb.com/news/why-are-there-so-many-mlb-hamstring-injuries-c236844162

The point of the story is players have built up their upper and lower body greatly in the off season, but maybe there isn't enough attention to detail for some quick exercises right before each at bat to get the legs ready. Maybe more quality stretching in the dugout. This article spells this out as well any article I've read on this. Why cant our players be more like pro basketball players for example. When a basketball player comes off the bench to in and they have been sitting for awhile, you see them on the sidelines doing all types of quick exercises to get loose. You rarely see that in baseball. Yes, baseball players stretch before the game, but during the game they probably rarely stretch much again. 

I'm just saying if I were Hahn, I would be looking into a brand new medical/training/fitness/flexibility staff that has the most up to date knowledge on this area of concern. Most importantly a staff that can make sure they get the players onboard with a different program and stay consistent with it. Let's face it, a new staff couldn't do any worse. Sadly this might never happen, but it should.

Then how do you explain old school Herm Schneider having the healthiest team in the majors for 15 years?

Also, it’s not like A.Thomas is from the dark ages, he raised his son to be a modern Top 100 prospect in all of baseball.  That doesn’t happen purely by accident.

Are the Indians firing their training staff because Plesac, Bieber and Civale all got hurt?  Then who gets credit for their keeping Clase on the mound after he missed all of 2020 or Karinchak from going down when he gets used so frequently?

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't care what the other 20-25 MLB teams do, I only care about what the White Sox do. Other than Eloy's injury which isn't the fault of the training staff, the other injuries are directly correlated to the training staff. Something has to be examined in why so many injuries are happening and for stupid reasons like running down the first base path to run out a single like Robert and Madrigal did. 

Here is an good technical article on the logical explanation for why players are injuring their hamstrings more. 

https://www.mlb.com/news/why-are-there-so-many-mlb-hamstring-injuries-c236844162

The point of the story is players have built up their upper and lower body greatly in the off season, but maybe there isn't enough attention to detail for some quick exercises right before each at bat to get the legs ready. Maybe more quality stretching in the dugout. This article spells this out as well any article I've read on this. Why cant our players be more like pro basketball players for example. When a basketball player comes off the bench to in and they have been sitting for awhile, you see them on the sidelines doing all types of quick exercises to get loose. You rarely see that in baseball. Yes, baseball players stretch before the game, but during the game they probably rarely stretch much again. 

I'm just saying if I were Hahn, I would be looking into a brand new medical/training/fitness/flexibility staff that has the most up to date knowledge on this area of concern. Most importantly a staff that can make sure they get the players onboard with a different program and stay consistent with it. Let's face it, a new staff couldn't do any worse. Sadly this might never happen, but it should.

A once in a century circumstance happens, then we see record numbers of injuries around all of baseball, but you want to hand wave that away for no good reason.  

If it were just the Sox, sure throw your temper tantrum,  but you can't ignore what is happening with the rest of the sport.

[Jack Parkman]

Moncada, as of right now has an identical isolated power to Nick Madrigal. They're both at .120. 

[Soxfest]

No team survives unscathed losing entire outfield 

[TitoMB345]

This thread has made me sad.

[35thstreetswarm]

48 minutes ago, TitoMB345 said:

This thread has made me sad.

Yeah, imagining worst case outcomes for core players tends to be sad.  Let me help—imagine they both come back and turn into the franchise players they could easily be.  Yay!  

[The Kids Can Play]

On 6/27/2021 at 10:55 AM, southsider2k5 said:

A once in a century circumstance happens, then we see record numbers of injuries around all of baseball, but you want to hand wave that away for no good reason.  

If it were just the Sox, sure throw your temper tantrum,  but you can't ignore what is happening with the rest of the sport.

I realize its happening around the league. The point the gentleman was making in the article I posted refers to all MLB players. Maybe all teams should be looking into better ways to stay loose and stretch during the game especially before they go to the plate for their next at bat.

So the Sox according you, should just put up with these injuries and say, "just a bad break, hopefully these injuries will stop", or "yeah bad breaks and fluke inquires this year, I'm sure this won't happen next year".  This is crazy and absurd. The Sox need to research and perhaps change medical/training staffs and find a staff that will be more into proactive modern day fitness and flexibility measures. As the article stated, players going to the plate to bat after a long period of resting and not stretching and then doing a huge burst of speed, can affect a hamstring injury. 

I get injuries like Abreu and Eloy are just unlucky and part of the game. However all the hamstring and hip flexor injuries are a direct result of not having those muscles properly stretched. Ever notice how Jose Abreu never pulls his hamstring? Go to a game and watch the ritual Jose goes thru before each at bat. Lots of stretching, jumping up and down, knee bends, etc before each at bat. It doesn't guarantee avoiding a hamstring pull, but it sure does help prevent one. 

 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I realize its happening around the league. The point the gentleman was making in the article I posted refers to all MLB players. Maybe all teams should be looking into better ways to stay loose and stretch during the game especially before they go to the plate for their next at bat.

So the Sox according you, should just put up with these injuries and say, "just a bad break, hopefully these injuries will stop", or "yeah bad breaks and fluke inquires this year, I'm sure this won't happen next year".  This is crazy and absurd. The Sox need to research and perhaps change medical/training staffs and find a staff that will be more into proactive modern day fitness and flexibility measures. As the article stated, players going to the plate to bat after a long period of resting and not stretching and then doing a huge burst of speed, can affect a hamstring injury. 

I get injuries like Abreu and Eloy are just unlucky and part of the game. However all the hamstring and hip flexor injuries are a direct result of not having those muscles properly stretched. Ever notice how Jose Abreu never pulls his hamstring? Go to a game and watch the ritual Jose goes thru before each at bat. Lots of stretching, jumping up and down, knee bends, etc before each at bat. It doesn't guarantee avoiding a hamstring pull, but it sure does help prevent one. 

 

Uh no.  He directly blamed the Sox training staff for these injuries.  There was nothing about looking to see what was causing the injuries.  They can investigate all they want, and Rick Hahn already said they would, but when a large trend is right in front of you, odds are pretty high it is the trend, and firing your training staff in the middle of the season will cause more problems than it fixes, and probably create a lot of others.

[The Kids Can Play]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Uh no.  He directly blamed the Sox training staff for these injuries.  There was nothing about looking to see what was causing the injuries.  They can investigate all they want, and Rick Hahn already said they would, but when a large trend is right in front of you, odds are pretty high it is the trend, and firing your training staff in the middle of the season will cause more problems than it fixes, and probably create a lot of others.

I never said anything about firing the staff this year. You need to go back and read more carefully. I suggested it for next year. Plus, if they keep the same staff, which they probably will, then I would hope Hahn makes sure they attend several medical training seminars to get educated better. 

Furthermore In all my posts on this topic, I am highly suggesting that the Sox need to be proactive and look into how to prevent these injuries. Hence form my last post: Maybe all teams should be looking into better ways to stay loose and stretch during the game especially before they go to the plate for their next at bat. 

You seriously need to read and understand a post more carefully before you post false statements. 

[southsider2k5]

47 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I never said anything about firing the staff this year. You need to go back and read more carefully. I suggested it for next year. Plus, if they keep the same staff, which they probably will, then I would hope Hahn makes sure they attend several medical training seminars to get educated better. 

Furthermore In all my posts on this topic, I am highly suggesting that the Sox need to be proactive and look into how to prevent these injuries. Hence form my last post: Maybe all teams should be looking into better ways to stay loose and stretch during the game especially before they go to the plate for their next at bat. 

You seriously need to read and understand a post more carefully before you post false statements. 

Yes, because Rando message board posters are qualified to comment on what makes a quality training staff.  I would like to see your credentials on this topic if that is your standard.  The ONE PERSON here who has a background in this area seems to feel the pandemic is the issue. What makes you more qualified to understand what is going on here than he is?