The Grandal will come out tomorrow, you can bet your bottom dollar

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Really? interesting. Ptatc was speculating that it could have been one of the tendons behind the knee

Yep. This is an odd one. Not that I expect anything different from the Sox This year. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, SleepyWhiteSox said:

I don't believe it until I hear it from ptatc

Sorry, no clue on this one. Purely a guess but maybe the gastroc only had a partial one and they were able to tack it down. Even still those are closer to 6-8 weeks.

The 5 weeks for a repaired tendon is really odd.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Nope. Expected to be about 5 weeks from what I was told today. 

I wonder if it was the plantaris but only partially torn so there just went in and released it and it really wasn't a repair.

I just can't see a 5 week timeline for a repair. It goes against all principles of healing.

[JoeCredeYes]

43 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I wonder if it was the plantaris but only partially torn so there just went in and released it and it really wasn't a repair.

I just can't see a 5 week timeline for a repair. It goes against all principles of healing.

Thanks for doing the lord's work here ptatc, it is much appreciated.  Find myself quoting a random physical therapist on Soxtalk to my gf on a daily basis these days, after the Grandal news she asked me "what'd the dude on SoxTalk say about it?"  You're officially a cult hero.  

[hi8is]

51 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said:

what'd the dude on SoxTalk say about it?

He has a name. Thy household shall show respect to ptatc.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, JoeCredeYes said:

Thanks for doing the lord's work here ptatc, it is much appreciated.  Find myself quoting a random physical therapist on Soxtalk to my gf on a daily basis these days, after the Grandal news she asked me "what'd the dude on SoxTalk say about it?"  You're officially a cult hero.  

Thanks. Doing what I can

[JoeCredeYes]

26 minutes ago, hi8is said:

He has a name. Thy household shall show respect to ptatc.

Hahaha, I'm just happy she hasn't yet tuned out my daily sky-is-falling rants about a 1st place baseball team with the biggest lead in the sport.  We'll get her trained up on SoxTalk handles after the ASB.

[hi8is]

2 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said:

Hahaha, I'm just happy she hasn't yet tuned out my daily sky-is-falling rants about a 1st place baseball team with the biggest lead in the sport.  We'll get her trained up on SoxTalk handles after the ASB.

Just get her this to wear during games and all will be forgiven.

https://www.mlbshop.com/chicago-white-sox/womens-chicago-white-sox-concepts-sport-gray/black-t-shirt-and-pants-sleep-set/t-25994245+p-6943745066327+z-9-2163975513?_ref=p-DLP:m-GRID:i-r2c0:po-6

 

[JoeCredeYes]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Just get her this to wear during games and all will be forgiven.

https://www.mlbshop.com/chicago-white-sox/womens-chicago-white-sox-concepts-sport-gray/black-t-shirt-and-pants-sleep-set/t-25994245+p-6943745066327+z-9-2163975513?_ref=p-DLP:m-GRID:i-r2c0:po-6

 

Oh yeah she's got some Sox gear, sadly I'm out in the Bay Area these days and not making many games that aren't in Oakland.

[hi8is]

10 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said:

Oh yeah she's got some Sox gear, sadly I'm out in the Bay Area these days and not making many games that aren't in Oakland.

I’m south of you about 6 hours.

[Vulture]

5 hours ago, ptatc said:

I wonder if it was the plantaris but only partially torn so there just went in and released it and it really wasn't a repair.

I just can't see a 5 week timeline for a repair. It goes against all principles of healing.

That’s got to be it, no? I think I read 2-4 weeks for that for normal everyday recovery. Maybe 2 more to get back in playing condition?

The only thing it really does is help with toe gripping, which is hardly ever used anyway. Could make sense, maybe he was curling his toes to help take pressure off his knee somehow and the unusual usage caused the strain. Maybe he curled his toes when coming out of a crouch to shift the weight off the knee. If you crouch and then come up with the majority of weight on one leg, you can see for yourself the foot has to do something abnormal to maintain the balance as you rise. Pressing down with the toes to compensate, which is basically the only thing the plantaris does.

[Vulture]

I know about this because I had trouble with plantaris fasciitis when I was waiting tables. Seems the trouble was my shoes. The heel was too high related to my toes, which caused my toes to grip down when I was standing to maintain balance. Seems weird the muscle that pulls the tendon that results in toe grip is behind the knee, but that is the case. A remnant of our monkey past

Edited July 8, 2021 by Vulture

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Vulture said:

That’s got to be it, no? I think I read 2-4 weeks for that for normal everyday recovery. Maybe 2 more to get back in playing condition?

The only thing it really does is help with toe gripping, which is hardly ever used anyway. Could make sense, maybe he was curling his toes to help take pressure off his knee somehow and the unusual usage caused the strain. Maybe he curled his toes when coming out of a crouch to shift the weight off the knee. If you crouch and then come up with the majority of weight on one leg, you can see for yourself the foot has to do something abnormal to maintain the balance as you rise. Pressing down with the toes to compensate, which is basically the only thing the plantaris does.

The plantaris goes from from the femoral condyle to the calcaneus.  It does not go to the toes. It might assist the triceps surae (gastroc and soleus) with plantar flexion but it's so small that no one really can agree.

[greg775]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:02 PM, hogan873 said:

Sounds like about what we expected, at least for time lost.

It's going to be an ugly 4-6 weeks from the catcher's spot...offensively and defensively.

This obviously is not a good injury for a catcher. I'll just betcha he isn't back this season. Remember this post as the months go by, please. ... It's sink or swim for Collins. I wish him well. I've liked Collins from the start, but I'm not positive he's a big leaguer. Hope so.

Edited July 8, 2021 by greg775

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I know about this because I had trouble with plantaris fasciitis when I was waiting tables. Seems the trouble was my shoes. The heel was too high related to my toes, which caused my toes to grip down when I was standing to maintain balance.

That's the plantar fascia. It's a piece of inert fascia that supports your arch. 

The rest is correct. A large heel to toe drop will add too much stress to to the area and cause an inflammation and subsequent degradation to the plantar fascia which goes from the anterior part of the heel to your toes. Shoes are a very important part of the process. Hence the minimalist shoes with a zero drop, are a good intervention.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

This obviously is not a good injury for a catcher. I'll just betcha he isn't back this season. Remember this post as the months go by, please. ... It's sink or swim for Collins. I wish him well. I've liked Collins from the start, but I'm not positive he's a big leaguer. Hope so.

Although it's a very odd situation, and is a trouble spot for catchers, I can't see it going more than 8 weeks. He should be back.

[Vulture]

I didn’t say it went to the toes. But the muscle contracts in toe gripping. Any fool can verify this by forming a grip with the toes while touching the back of the knee or looking at the calf while making a gripping movement. This just a basic fact. The forearm muscles aren’t attached to fingers either. Would you say that means they arent contracted when you grip your fingers??

 

[Vulture]

27 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's the plantar fascia. It's a piece of inert fascia that supports your arch. 

The rest is correct. A large heel to toe drop will add too much stress to to the area and cause an inflammation and subsequent degradation to the plantar fascia which goes from the anterior part of the heel to your toes. Shoes are a very important part of the process. Hence the minimalist shoes with a zero drop, are a good intervention.

And the plantaris muscle behind the knee is part of that mechanism

Plantaris injury

Anatomy

The plantaris muscle is a fine rope-like tendon running next to the larger Achilles Tendon. Its function is to work with the Achilles to flex the ankle and knee joint by extending from the outside (lateral) back of the femur (allowing you to stand on your toes or point your foot)

If youre standing on your toes the same mechanism is used as gripping, which extends from the toe to the heel up to the plantaris muscle. Which is why I speculated the weight shift when coming out of the crouch due to sore knee may have caused the strain. If you put an uneven load on one foot while coming out of a crouch there is compensation in the toes, which ultimately involves contraction of the plantaris, pulling on the tendon and causing strain.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Vulture

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, Vulture said:

I didn’t say it went to the toes. But the muscle contracts in toe gripping. Any fool can verify this by forming a grip with the toes while touching the back of the knee or looking at the calf while making a gripping movement. This just a basic fact. The forearm muscles aren’t attached to fingers either. Would you say that means they arent contracted when you grip your fingers??

 

I would disagree. The muscle is so small and inconsequential to activity. It is so far underneath the gastroc and soles that you really can't feel a contraction of it.

The forearm muscles are attached to the fingers. The flexor digitorum superficialis and profundus originate at the medial epicondyle of the elbow.

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Vulture said:

And the plantaris muscle behind the knee is part of that mechanism

Plantaris injury

Anatomy

The plantaris muscle is a fine rope-like tendon running next to the larger Achilles Tendon. Its function is to work with the Achilles to flex the ankle and knee joint by extending from the outside (lateral) back of the femur (allowing you to stand on your toes or point your foot)

If youre standing on your toes the same mechanism is used as gripping, which extends from the toe to the heel up to the plantaris muscle
 

It is not the same as gripping with the toes as the gripping mostly comes from the flexor digitorum longus, flexor digitorum brevis and the small intrinsic muscles in the bottom of the foot.

Even if you go with what you posted look at the size of the gastroc and the size of the soleus. Do you really think the the tiny muscle of the plantaris is really going to be under stress when this bigger muscles are there?

Edited July 8, 2021 by ptatc

[DanofDuPage]

The Sox need to draft another catcher that they can develop. Joe Mack. Or please give me a better option. Sign cheap. 

 

[Vulture]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It is not the same as gripping with the toes as the gripping mostly comes from the flexor digitorum longus, flexor digitorum brevis and the small intrinsic muscles in the bottom of the foot.

Even if you go with what you posted look at the size of the gastroc and the size of the soleus. Do you really think the the tiny muscle of the plantaris is really going to be under stress when this bigger muscles are there?

It is the same. You curl the toe inward to stabilize the toe. Can you even stand on the tips of your toes? If you can you can more easily feel the plantaris muscle flexing. You can easily feel the thin cord right above the back of the joint. It really pops out.

[Vulture]

18 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It is not the same as gripping with the toes as the gripping mostly comes from the flexor digitorum longus, flexor digitorum brevis and the small intrinsic muscles in the bottom of the foot.

Even if you go with what you posted look at the size of the gastroc and the size of the soleus. Do you really think the the tiny muscle of the plantaris is really going to be under stress when this bigger muscles are there?

Yes I do because the plantaris extends beyond the base of those muscles. It feels like a relatively thin cord right above the joint. I said I can feel it in post you’re responding to so obviously I think it can be felt. Therapist showed me.

Do I think it would be stressed with larger muscles right there? Yes the other muscles aren’t attached to the plantaris tendon, which is involved in toe gripping. It would be more easily stressed since it isnt normally used much. I really don’t get how you find this anyway controversial

Edited July 8, 2021 by Vulture

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

It is the same. You curl the toe inward to stabilize the toe. Can you even stand on the tips of your toes? If you can you can more easily feel the plantaris muscle flexing. You can easily feel the thin cord right above the back of the joint. It really pops out.

That is most likely the lateral head of the gastroc which is on top of the plantaris.  Could also be the tendon of the popliteus which is also superficial to the plantaris. 

If you are only moving your toes the flexor digitorum longus attaches just below the knee as well. Just moving your toes will not get a contraction of the plantaris.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Yes I do because the plantaris extends beyond the base of those muscles. It feels like a relatively thin cord right above the joint. I said I can feel it in post you’re responding to so obviously I think it can be felt. Therapist showed me

The plantaris does not extend further than the gastroc. The gastroc attaches on the femoral condyle as well and is much bigger and superficial than the plantaris. I have never seen nor heard of someone trying to palpate it as it is inconsequential to any actions which is why it is commonly used as a tendon for reconstructions.  

If you found it more power to you. I've never found a reason to do it. However it has nothing to do with toe motion. Just because it theoretically can help with ankle plantar flexion doesn't mean it's active during that motion.