Superstar Lamar Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 I only care about the return in comparison to Cease+ so that Bernstein can be further exposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 The Cubs got out of it fairly cheaply, but it shows you signing guys to trade for prospects in a couple of months rarely pays off. The way Pederson was paid, the Cubs only paid him a couple million, but couldn't you get a prospect like Ball for that amount or much less? The Braves are going for it. The Cubs are folding. They are only a half game apart record-wise. This is definitely a sign the Cubs are going to finally dump some guys because they wouldn't have made this trade if they were still going to give it a shot. The way they handled what many thought was going to be a multiple championship dynasty should be studied. I know people say trading for Chapman was well worth it, but they could have got someone who got saves and not traded Gleybar. They shouldn't have traded Eloy or Cease either. They didn't want to trade any of their core, and they all get so expensive together even the Cubs can't pay it. I think it means with this and next wave of guys with the Sox, they may trade their vets for prospects and let the younger guys get sprinkled in, all while adding younger talent to keep the winning happening. There is no reason they shouldn't own the AL Central always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: The Cubs got out of it fairly cheaply, but it shows you signing guys to trade for prospects in a couple of months rarely pays off. The way Pederson was paid, the Cubs only paid him a couple million, but couldn't you get a prospect like Ball for that amount or much less? The Braves are going for it. The Cubs are folding. They are only a half game apart record-wise. This is definitely a sign the Cubs are going to finally dump some guys because they wouldn't have made this trade if they were still going to give it a shot. The way they handled what many thought was going to be a multiple championship dynasty should be studied. I know people say trading for Chapman was well worth it, but they could have got someone who got saves and not traded Gleybar. They shouldn't have traded Eloy or Cease either. They didn't want to trade any of their core, and they all get so expensive together even the Cubs can't pay it. I think it means with this and next wave of guys with the Sox, they may trade their vets for prospects and let the younger guys get sprinkled in, all while adding younger talent to keep the winning happening. There is no reason they shouldn't own the AL Central always. The fact they couldn't develop pitching made this deal a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, ptatc said: The fact they couldn't develop pitching made this deal a necessity. Plus they bought Quintana while he was still pretty darned close to peak value from the previous season…hard to time those Big 3 trades any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Plus they bought Quintana while he was still pretty darned close to peak value from the previous season…hard to time those Big 3 trades any better. Yes, but Q wasn't as good the year he was traded. The slip had begun. He was still was pretty good with the Cubs, but certainly not an ace. And they really paid an ace price. Edited July 16, 2021 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Just now, Dick Allen said: Yes, but Q wasn't as good the year he was traded. The slip had begun. The whole cost controlled concept was used as another reason. Cost controlled doesn't matter if they aren't very good however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Yes, but Q wasn't as good the year he was traded. The slip had begun. His ERA and peripherals were elevated but there was at least one advanced metric that made him reminiscent of his former self…kind of waiting for the roof to cave in but it didn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Just now, caulfield12 said: His ERA and peripherals were elevated but there was at least one advanced metric that made him reminiscent of his former self…kind of waiting for the roof to cave in but it didn’t. He was always serviceable as a Cub and probably a little better than that, but they paid a gigantic price. Teams get burned occasionally trading prospects who develop into great players, but these 2 were expected to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 43 minutes ago, FriendlyNorthsider said: Not sure how a .750 OPS is more disappointing than a double digit ERA in rookie ball as the teams top prospect but okay. Longenhagen, who unlike you has seen this guy play, gave the guy a 70 grade for raw power. Mlb pipeline has him ahead of Gavin sheets in updated rankings. They aren't in rookie ball, besides rehab innings, so unless you're counting Kelley's whopping .2 IP as he's returning from injury, sure. But that's also the thing - with the minor league restructure and COVID, Kelley (and the other two) didn't get rookie ball like Ball (who also got college) did. Instead, the three of them are pitching at a level where they're 3 to 2 years younger than league average, which also less pro experience than Ball. So yes, Mr. 70-grade power is more disappointing. We've seen from Adolfo that big power can only get you so far. You're right that MLB pipeline has him ahead of Sheets in their 1B rankings - Ball is 8, Sheets is 9. Sheets isn't a top prospect. This guy was touted as the 1B of the future by Nightengale and Bernstein almost immediately, but he was only available because he's been a disappointment. Anyone local thinking they can bet that on an A-ball dude is forgetting guys like Josh Vitters or Jake Fox. I'll give you some of ours to be fair - Viciedo and Josh Fields were heralded and busted, and Casey Gillaspie was a former top prospect who flamed out hard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Superstar Lamar said: I only care about the return in comparison to Cease+ so that Bernstein can be further exposed. They were discussing the Quintana trade yesterday and both actually think it was an even trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said: They were discussing the Quintana trade yesterday and both actually think it was an even trade. Quintana produced about 7 WAR over 3.5 seasons for the Cubs and got paid $26 million while doing it. He was basically a ML average starter for them overall. Eloy has produced 3.4 WAR in 2 seasons and Cease had produced 2.3 WAR in a little over 2 seasons. That's almost 6 WAR alone in just 2 seasons of play for them. You also have to take into account that we control them both for 4+ more years. When you consider how much Quintana underperformed for them, I really don't think you can say it was a even trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriendlyNorthsider Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Quin said: They aren't in rookie ball, besides rehab innings, so unless you're counting Kelley's whopping .2 IP as he's returning from injury, sure. But that's also the thing - with the minor league restructure and COVID, Kelley (and the other two) didn't get rookie ball like Ball (who also got college) did. Instead, the three of them are pitching at a level where they're 3 to 2 years younger than league average, which also less pro experience than Ball. So yes, Mr. 70-grade power is more disappointing. We've seen from Adolfo that big power can only get you so far. You're right that MLB pipeline has him ahead of Sheets in their 1B rankings - Ball is 8, Sheets is 9. Sheets isn't a top prospect. This guy was touted as the 1B of the future by Nightengale and Bernstein almost immediately, but he was only available because he's been a disappointment. Anyone local thinking they can bet that on an A-ball dude is forgetting guys like Josh Vitters or Jake Fox. I'll give you some of ours to be fair - Viciedo and Josh Fields were heralded and busted, and Casey Gillaspie was a former top prospect who flamed out hard. Yeah, the cubs shouldn’t get any power prospects because Dayan Viciedo sucks. And Kelley gave up a homer to a Yu Darvish teen on the cubs last night so he’s still in rookie ball FYI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Harry Chappas said: They were discussing the Quintana trade yesterday and both actually think it was an even trade. We should do more trades with the Cubs if they are that easy to please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinky Stanky Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 On 7/7/2021 at 8:19 PM, Tnetennba said: Moncada at 2B is not a solution. Have we forgotten how bad he was before moving? Easy to forget something that didn't happen. He grew as a player on both sides of the ball, but he was never bad at 2B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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