Is it time to give TLR his due? And maybe some apologies?

[The Kids Can Play]

On 7/8/2021 at 5:18 PM, VAfan said:

I don't expect anyone who didn't like TLR to ever change their tune.  They will always find something about him they don't like to hang their hat on.  

TLR is not a perfect manager, by any means.  No one is.  He has his strengths, and weaknesses.  But he didn't get into the HOF and help his teams win the most games in integrated baseball by being an idiot.  He has reasons for the decisions he makes.  They don't always turn out, but often they do.

Before the season and during the early part, the biggest problem I had with TLR critics is the way many of them came off thinking they are smarter than TLR, and somehow would be more qualified to be a MLB manager than he is.  That struck me as complete BS.  One reason is that there's a whole lot more to managing than deciding the lineup or when to take out the starter, etc.  You have to be a manager of people and a clubhouse, and you need to get guys pulling the same direction.  There's a lot that goes into managing that no one on the outside who has never been in those shoes has any real clue about.  

I still think the TLR hire was a good one, and was way better than hiring AJ Hinch, who couldn't keep his team from blatantly cheating their way to a WS win.  

I think the resilience of the team in the face of all the injuries and the breakdowns in what was expected to be a great bullpen is due at least in part to TLR.  I expected nothing less. 

But, as much as I've defended TLR, I agree that it's a long season and we aren't done yet.  The Sox need to get their horses back and to add at the deadline if we want to beat Boston or Houston or Tampa or Oakland in the playoffs.  So far, we've crushed the weaker teams but not matched up nearly as well against the top ones. TLR isn't going to make that difference.  We need Eloy and Robert and Yazmani and others back, and an upgrade at 2B and RF if we want to win in the postseason. 

TLR was not a good hire. Personally I would have preferred AJ Hinch. If not Hinch, then some other qualified manager. I don't like when an owner decides he screwed up 35 years ago, when he allowed Hawk Harrelson to fire TLR. It was wrong when JR decided to make right and go over Hahn and Hahn's responsibility and make the decision for him. Owners in baseball do not hire managers. Oh I forgot, we are talking about Jerry Reinsdorf. Oh yeah, he allowed Jerry Krauss to get rid of Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson. 

Of course this team is winning and is extremely talented, even when we bring several minor league players up. The credit needs to go to Hahn and all his staff in the scouting system and minors who develop this talent. 

[RibbieRubarb]

40 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Despite him! We are in first place because of the amazing talent Rick Hahn brought to the Sox. ?

Then you can't blame him when the team loses. 
Its Rick Hahn's fault then too.

[The Kids Can Play]

Just now, RibbieRubarb said:

Then you can't blame him when the team loses. 
Its Rick Hahn's fault then too.

No I will not blame Hahn! I will blame Jerry R. Hahn did not hire TLR. If TLR screws this up, which he probably wont due to the incredible talent he has, then we blame JR for not allowing Hahn to hire his own manager. 

[RibbieRubarb]

12 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

No I will not blame Hahn! I will blame Jerry R. Hahn did not hire TLR. If TLR screws this up, which he probably wont due to the incredible talent he has, then we blame JR for not allowing Hahn to hire his own manager. 

At least its logical...

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Sounds more like your opinion than fact. But you go with that.

Do you have any quotes of Tony discussing Ethan Katz, or anything else prior Lucas and Rick bringing him in? There was a years long connection between Lucas and Katz, including Hahn and the organization approving of Lucas' work with Katz over the years.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-chicago-white-sox-coaching-staff-20201201-l2lndmiu7raexiuzjoatfwyhai-story.html

This hiring article discussed Giolito's work and history with Katz, Hahn and the organization approved of Lucas working with Katz over the past few years. Katz said he had ZERO previous connection and never met or spoke with La Russa prior to Hahn and Lucas bringing him in. 

[RibbieRubarb]

Just now, South Side Hit Men said:

Do you have any quotes of Tony discussing Ethan Katz, or anything else prior Lucas and Rick bringing him in? There was a years long connection between Lucas and Katz, including Hahn and the organization approving of Lucas' work with Katz over the years.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-chicago-white-sox-coaching-staff-20201201-l2lndmiu7raexiuzjoatfwyhai-story.html

This hiring article discussed Giolito's work and history with Katz, Hahn and the organization approved of Lucas working with Katz over the past few years. Katz said he had ZERO previous connection and never met or spoke with La Russa prior to Hahn and Lucas bringing him in. 

Why would I need to do that? I don't like LaRussa

 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Why would I need to do that? I don't like LaRussa

Well then cut with your bullshit opinions. There is zero evidence Tony had any knowledge of Katz, and in fact a statement by Katz they never met or ever had a discussion prior to Lucas' recommendation, based on the well documented history with Lucas and the team approving of Katz' work with their Ace pitcher.

Edited July 12, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[The Kids Can Play]

2 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Why would I need to do that? I don't like LaRussa

 

You would need to read that because you are the one who said  to the poster, "Sounds more like your opinion than fact. But you go with that." Katz is only here because of Giolito and Hahn. Start doing your homework before telling someone he is making an opinion. 

[RibbieRubarb]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Well then cut with your bullshit opinions. There is zero evidence Tony had any knowledge of Katz, and in fact a statement by Katz they never met or ever had a discussion prior to Lucas' recommendation, based on the well documented history with Lucas and the team approving of Katz' work with their Ace pitcher.

That's a pleasant way of talking to someone on Soxtalk. Tell me how that turns out for you.

Edited July 12, 2021 by RibbieRubarb
bold

[RibbieRubarb]

14 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

You would need to read that because you are the one who said  to the poster, "Sounds more like your opinion than fact. But you go with that." Katz is only here because of Giolito and Hahn. Start doing your homework before telling someone he is making an opinion. 

I don't like LaRussa. But if you truly believe the Manager of a MLB ballclub had nothing to do with the hiring of his staff...well. It sounds more of personal bias to me. 

I am of the belief, based on logic, that if you blame him for losses you have to give him some credit for wins. Whether you like it or not.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by RibbieRubarb
typo

[The Kids Can Play]

26 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

I don't like LaRussa. But if you truly believe the Manager of a MLB ballclub had nothing to do with the hiring of his staff...well. It sounds more of personal bias to me. 

I am of the belief, based on logic, that if you blame him for losses you have to give him some credit for wins. Whether you like it or not.

 

 

TLR being a manager of a MLB ballclub has nothing to do with it. The job was handed to him and it shouldn't have been, based on normal baseball executive protocols. Regardless if he is a HOF manager and won 3 WS titles, that was light years ago. He is 76 now and acts, manages and talks like someone even older. It's not a bias that I don't like him. It's based on the facts I see watching him manage and lead this team. Again, this is a immensely talented team that Hahn put together. TLR is simply along for the free ride. 

[IWokeUpLikeThis]

8 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

TLR being a manager of a MLB ballclub has nothing to do with it. The job was handed to him and it shouldn't have been, based on normal baseball executive protocols. Regardless if he is a HOF manager and won 3 WS titles, that was light years ago. He is 76 now and acts, manages and talks like someone even older. It's not a bias that I don't like him. It's based on the facts I see watching him manage and lead this team. Again, this is a immensely talented team that Hahn put together. TLR is simply along for the free ride. 

Are these the same facts that have you judging players by their number of RBI's in the other thread?

[South Side Hit Men]

29 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

I don't like LaRussa. But if you truly believe the Manager of a MLB ballclub had nothing to do with the hiring of his staff...well. It sounds more of personal bias to me. 

I am of the belief, based on logic, that if you blame him for losses you have to give him some credit for wins. Whether you like it or not.

More BS opinions. Whether you, I or anyone else likes or dislikes La Russa has baring on what took place. I stated the White Sox brought in Katz for interviews based on his long working relationship with Giolito, Tony and Katz had no relationship whereas Lucas had a longstanding relationship and recruited Katz. These statements are true, not "opinions" that you attributed to me.

Quote

"My first interactions with (La Russa) were part of the interview process." - Ethan Katz

And enough with the weak strawman statements. Never said Tony had "nothing" to do with hiring his staff. He brought in his crony friend's son, and had a prior knowledge or Cairo based on Walt Jocketty's relationship in Cincinnati. Tony also inherited several staff and coaches who were already here, including Frank Menechino, who you claimed Tony "hired".

[RibbieRubarb]

47 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

More BS opinions. Whether you, I or anyone else likes or dislikes La Russa has baring on what took place. I stated the White Sox brought in Katz for interviews based on his long working relationship with Giolito, Tony and Katz had no relationship whereas Lucas had a longstanding relationship and recruited Katz. These statements are true, not "opinions" that you attributed to me.

And enough with the weak strawman statements. Never said Tony had "nothing" to do with hiring his staff. He brought in his crony friend's son, and had a prior knowledge or Cairo based on Walt Jocketty's relationship in Cincinnati. Tony also inherited several staff and coaches who were already here, including Frank Menechino, who you claimed Tony "hired".

Keep calling my posts BS and see how long you last here. We have some rules here and being insulting to fellow members is not one of them. Learn some manners.

Edited July 12, 2021 by RibbieRubarb
typo

[DannyWright]

Tony LaRussa --- Your AL Manager Of the Year. 2021

On 7/8/2021 at 6:39 PM, bmags said:

Congrats on making a summer off day when we are up 8 games annoying as hell.

 

[RibbieRubarb]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

More BS opinions. Whether you, I or anyone else likes or dislikes La Russa has baring on what took place. I stated the White Sox brought in Katz for interviews based on his long working relationship with Giolito, Tony and Katz had no relationship whereas Lucas had a longstanding relationship and recruited Katz. These statements are true, not "opinions" that you attributed to me.

And enough with the weak strawman statements. Never said Tony had "nothing" to do with hiring his staff. He brought in his crony friend's son, and had a prior knowledge or Cairo based on Walt Jocketty's relationship in Cincinnati. Tony also inherited several staff and coaches who were already here, including Frank Menechino, who you claimed Tony "hired".

But to answer your question...he interviewed with LaRussa. Hahn may have brought him in and recommended him, but LaRussa, like all MLB managers, hire and control their staff. You are correct about Menechino already being on staff, but LaRussa decided to retain him.

It can be a team effort with LaRussa getting some credit.

Edited July 12, 2021 by RibbieRubarb
added more

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Well then cut with your bullshit opinions. There is zero evidence Tony had any knowledge of Katz, and in fact a statement by Katz they never met or ever had a discussion prior to Lucas' recommendation, based on the well documented history with Lucas and the team approving of Katz' work with their Ace pitcher.

You can't go after people like this for their opinions.

[The Kids Can Play]

5 hours ago, RibbieRubarb said:

At least its logical...

 

4 hours ago, IWokeUpLikeThis said:

Are these the same facts that have you judging players by their number of RBI's in the other thread?

Oh my bad, you're right, all this team success is completely because of TLR. He has done an awesome job! Of course he is the reason we got all this talent here. Hell why doesn't Jerry fire Hahn, he doesn't need Hahn. He has the HOF stud manager TLR. 

[The Kids Can Play]

5 hours ago, RibbieRubarb said:

At least its logical...

Maybe you should try logic! 

[BRDSR]

4 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

TLR being a manager of a MLB ballclub has nothing to do with it. The job was handed to him and it shouldn't have been, based on normal baseball executive protocols. Regardless if he is a HOF manager and won 3 WS titles, that was light years ago. He is 76 now and acts, manages and talks like someone even older. It's not a bias that I don't like him. It's based on the facts I see watching him manage and lead this team.  Again, this is a immensely talented team that Hahn put together. TLR is simply along for the free ride. 

Hahn and his crew get a TON of credit for putting together a team that could weather the injuries this team has experienced.  But pull me a lineup from the last four weeks that any baseball fan, let alone analyst, would call “immensely talented” as of 1 April 2021 and you’ll either be lying or delusional.  The win/loss record that TLR has been able to achieve with the talent he’s been given is remarkable.  (The players themselves have of course been remarkable too, but you can’t discount TLR’s role of putting them in positions to succeed.)

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, BRDSR said:

Hahn and his crew get a TON of credit for putting together a team that could weather the injuries this team has experienced.  But pull me a lineup from the last four weeks that any baseball fan, let alone analyst, would call “immensely talented” as of 1 April 2021 and you’ll either be lying or delusional.  The win/loss record that TLR has been able to achieve with the talent he’s been given is remarkable.  (The players themselves have of course been remarkable too, but you can’t discount TLR’s role of putting them in positions to succeed.)

My bad, yeah you're right this is 100 percent due to TLR. Who needs Hahn. I forgot TLR brought all those minor league players to the Sox! 

[chitownsportsfan]

17 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

My bad, yeah you're right this is 100 percent due to TLR. Who needs Hahn. I forgot TLR brought all those minor league players to the Sox! 

It's a team effort.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

It's a team effort.

Interestingly, JR, KW and bad managing took the blame for the majority of 2013-2019.

We can cite the first round draft picks making it, and Rodon’s success this season, but who has exceeded expectations from those drafts, besides Tim Anderson?

I guess Crochet making it up so quickly in 2020 and looking dominant, Madrigal his last three weeks before going down to injury, Burger even making it to AAA, let alone the majors…but there are just as many question marks about the future of all those guys other than TA7 and Vaughn having a place in the lineup SOMEWHERE next season.

[RG23SoxFan]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

It's a team effort.

Of course it is and I haven't read where anyone suggested that TLR deserves 100% of the credit.  It's hard for me to take anyone seriously who believes that when a team is successful that the manager doesn't have a hand in it.  The amount of credit a manager deserves is definitely debatable and it varies from team to team.  However, anyone who states that a manager deserves no credit sounds just as silly as someone who wants to give a manager all the credit.

[black jack]

He's the best manager we've had in my lifetime.

 

I'm 47.