Vaughn v. Sheets v. Burger v. Mercedes

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I was being sarcastic about being set for years with Moncada. I was making fun of the posters in here who think Moncada is a superstar and we can let Burger go, like we have the best third baseman in baseball and no reason to keep Burger. Like we are set at 3B for years.  We need to keep both! 

Again this is not about going for the WS title this year only. This is about maintaining sustained success for years to come, which obviously Theo Epstein and the Cubs screwed up. We don't want to win a WS like the Cubs did in 2016 and then have to do a major sell-off and 2nd rebuild. 

I know you were being sarcastic but we are literally set for years. You can’t just keep a guy down in the minors however long you want and no point of wasting him on the bench.

[southsider2k5]

Let me put it this way.  The older  grouping of guys like Stiever/Sheets/Lambert/Burger/Adolfo, etc are guys that are primed to be moved. 

#1, they ALL have significant competition ahead of them

#2 in the cases of Burger and Sheets they don't have the ability to add other defensive positions, or the ability to move around the diamond to get into games more regularly.

#3 the Sox have a list of players they will have to add to the 40 man roster and a roster full of decisions to make that they don't want to lose in the rule 5 draft which will also force them to make moves.

#4, options are running out for a lot of these guys.

#5 the Sox are trading players in the next few weeks to add to the major league roster, and they seem to be making a concerted effort to bring in a lot more young upside talent to really build for when the core of players that we have in Chicago right now start to get expensive and potentially able to leave Chicago.  I get the impression they are more interested in keeping the younger guys than the older ones.

[mqr]

28 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

All the sabermetrics are great, but it's still about BA, and scoring runs.

This is half right

[The Kids Can Play]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

With Moncada at 3B, Abreu at 1B, and Madrigal at 2B, you really don't have a future starting spot for Jake Burger.  His profile doesn't make him a super sub kind of player, as he hasn't apparently shown the defensive versatility to do much else than 3b or 1b, you  really don't have somewhere to put him.

Oh like Moncada is this defensive guru that can play multiple spots? lmao! Moncada is injured often and his power numbers are not there. Btw, if you haven't been paying attention, the Sox have not been trading away their 1st round picks except for Chris Sale and that was worth the trade, based on how much they got back at the time. Unless you can get unbelievable talent back, Burger is not going to be traded. 

Everybody keeps forgetting when Kenny Williams was running the show, all he did was trade prospects away for veterans. That did not work out very well. Hence why he is never heard from anymore. Now we have Hahn who believes in building the team from the minors and home grown talent. It seems to be working pretty well. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Oh like Moncada is this defensive guru that can play multiple spots? lmao! Moncada is injured often and his power numbers are not there. Btw, if you haven't been paying attention, the Sox have not been trading away their 1st round picks except for Chris Sale and that was worth the trade, based on how much they got back at the time. Unless you can get unbelievable talent back, Burger is not going to be traded. 

Everybody keeps forgetting when Kenny Williams was running the show, all he did was trade prospects away for veterans. That did not work out very well. Hence why he is never heard from anymore. Now we have Hahn who believes in building the team from the minors and home grown talent. It seems to be working pretty well. 

First off, Yoan Moncada is a gold glove caliber 3B.  He's 7th in all of baseball in 3B fangraphs defensive rating, and 7th in UZR/150.  He was 4th in both last year.  So yes, I am going to going ahead and proclaim Yoan Moncada a defensive guru.  He already played multiple spots, playing a MUCH better 2B than Burger did (remember they wouldn't even let him play it daily at AAA?), also coming through baseball while playing a respectable SS, but was moved off because of the players in front of him in Boston In Xander Boegarts, and then Tim Anderson is Chicago.

Yeah, if you want a flex on Yoan, you might have an argument on the power stuff, but defensively?  No.  No way.

[chitownsportsfan]

Yoan Moncada has 13.1 fWAR before age 27-29 (usually considered the absolute prime of a player's career) and on a rate basis is worth about 4 fWAR per 162 games.   You are talking about trading him because a 25 year has had a nice half season in AAA and a half dozen decent MLB starts?

You're insane dude.  Like, there's no other way about it.  What you're arguing isn't even a thing.  There isn't a single team in MLB that would take Jake Burger over Yoan Moncada over the next 5 years. Yoan Moncada is one of the most 30 or so valuable players in MLB over the next few years as a trade asset thanks to his contract and ability.  Jake Burger would barely net a decent reliever rental or maybe like a "B" grade low level minor leaguer if the Sox wanted to go that route.

This is nothing against Jake Burger, he has made himself from an absolute zero, into a legit fringe MLB player with potential to be an solid everyday regular by the time he's 28 or so, but listen to yourself! That's all he is, a fringe MLB player at the moment.  Yoan Moncada is a proven everyday star.  You want to talk about  Yoan's history of minor INJURIES as a reason to go with Jake?  You gotta be bleeping me! Who is the guy with a twice shredded achilles? It ain't Yoan!

Edited July 12, 2021 by chitownsportsfan

[VAfan]

Which of these is the best option?  

1.  Trade Burger and other prospects for Adam Frazier, if the Pirates are willing.  We don't know how the Pirates would value Burger in this swap. We don't know if they would think of him as a major part of the deal, or would be the extra they would accept behind someone else.  

2. Trade Burger and potentially other prospects to Arizona for Escobar.  Same as above.  It this Burger and a throw-in, or someone else with Burger thrown in? 

3.  Move Yoan Moncada back to 2B for the rest of the year and install Burger at 3B.  Is this idea insane?  How would Yoan feel about it?  Will he do whatever is best for the team?  He played 200 games at 2B in 2017-18.  

4.  Keep everyone and play Leury Garcia as the primary 2B for the rest of 2021.   The Sox seemed to be testing out Leury at 2B prior to the break as the fall-back if they can't pry a better 2B in a trade the Sox can live with.  

I don't think the Sox have easy options.  

My main concern is that Jake Burger could become a very good hitter.  He exploded back onto the scene this year in AAA with almost no prep the last few years.  He's been rocking it for the Sox in his first 23 PAs, with a 1,006 OPS.  Sure, he's 25, but so far he's crushing it as a 25-year-old.  He doesn't look like he needs any more AAA seasoning.  

I'm not going to say he's better than Moncada after 23 PAs, because you have no idea of the trajectory of the 2 players.  But for those 23 PAs, his OPS has been better, and his fielding at 3B has seemed very good.  Is it Yermin-like flash in the pan?  Or is it sustainable?  Certainly Burger has a quality pedigree, which suggests he's not a flash-in-the-pan.

So, while this may be crazy, I think if I were the Sox I would try option #3.  There have already been a lot of sacrifices and player position movements this year for the team.  Why not Moncada?  Sure, you lose some defense.  But I wonder if this might spur Moncada to have a better second half because he would have competition for his spot.  He wouldn't want to leave any doubt who should play 3B going into 2022 and beyond.  

The upsides of this move are:

A.  Puts the best offense on the field -- with Burger likely much better than Garcia and Mendick.
B.  Finds out what you have in Jake Burger.  His value is much more likely to go up, perhaps significantly, than down.  
C.  Keeps you from underselling Burger when you don't really have enough info to properly evaluate him.  

The downsides? 

A. Could piss off Yoan Moncada, and perhaps other Cubans if they feel he's being mistreated. 
B. Would likely hurt defensively, as Moncada is a gold glover at 3B but wasn't as good at 2B.  

I doubt this is going to happen, but if it does, I'll be ready to claim I told you so!  

 

 

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

First off, Yoan Moncada is a gold glove caliber 3B.  He's 7th in all of baseball in 3B fangraphs defensive rating, and 7th in UZR/150.  He was 4th in both last year.  So yes, I am going to going ahead and proclaim Yoan Moncada a defensive guru.  He already played multiple spots, playing a MUCH better 2B than Burger did (remember they wouldn't even let him play it daily at AAA?), also coming through baseball while playing a respectable SS, but was moved off because of the players in front of him in Boston In Xander Boegarts, and then Tim Anderson is Chicago.

Yeah, if you want a flex on Yoan, you might have an argument on the power stuff, but defensively?  No.  No way.

In a recent post when I suggested putting Burger at 3rd and moving Moncada to 2B, since it was his original position, you blasted me that he sucked as a 2nd baseman. So please with this he can play multiple spots crap. Be consistent and don't contradict yourself. 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

In a recent post when I suggested putting Burger at 3rd and moving Moncada to 2B, since it was his original position, you blasted me that he sucked as a 2nd baseman. So please with this he can play multiple spots crap. Be consistent and don't contradict yourself. 

He is WAY better at 2nd than Burger. While below average overall, he was still one of the top OOZ guys there.

Meanwhile what have YOU actually shown that Burger is better?

[Bob Sacamano]

13 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Oh like Moncada is this defensive guru that can play multiple spots? lmao! Moncada is injured often and his power numbers are not there. Btw, if you haven't been paying attention, the Sox have not been trading away their 1st round picks except for Chris Sale and that was worth the trade, based on how much they got back at the time. Unless you can get unbelievable talent back, Burger is not going to be traded. 

Everybody keeps forgetting when Kenny Williams was running the show, all he did was trade prospects away for veterans. That did not work out very well. Hence why he is never heard from anymore. Now we have Hahn who believes in building the team from the minors and home grown talent. It seems to be working pretty well. 

Of course they weren’t trading their #1 picks. They were just in a rebuild. ???? They will absolutely be more open to trading them going forward in competitive window. Especially one that doesn’t really have a position going forward.

Edited July 13, 2021 by manbearpuig