What’s driving the White Sox success? Start with hitting it big in the draft.

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bill-madden-driving-white-sox-211700294.html
NY Daily News story…looks at Sox success with scouting picking high character college players like Rodon, Burger and Collins

 

We’ll get to that in a minute. In the meantime, to put the White Sox‘s unparalleled draft success in perspective, after failing to sign Gerrit Cole (their No. 1 pick in 2008), the Yankees have had 16 first-round draft picks, with only one — Aaron Judge in 2013 — even making it to the big leagues with them. On their present roster, there are only five players who were drafted by them — Judge, Brett Gardner, Kyle Higashioka, Jordan Montgomery and Nick Nelson.

At the same time, there are the Houston Astros, who under analytics guru Jeff Luhnow, executed a tear-down back in 2012 with the idea of using all their analytics data to build the team up with high draft picks. When they won the World Series in 2017 (before it was compromised by their cheating scandal), Luhnow and the Astros were acclaimed throughout baseball for their analytics-first approach to building a ballclub — at the same time they were gutting their scouting department.

But upon closer inspection, it’s hard to see how analytics had anything to do with the Astros’ rise. On that 2017 team, there were only four players — Carlos Correa, Lance McCullers Jr., George Springer and Dallas Keuchel — who were obtained through the draft and Springer was a No. 1 pick by Luhnow’s predecessor, Ed Wade, who also had signed Jose Altuve back in 2007. Moreover, Luhnow had three straight overall No. 1 picks in the draft from 2012-2014, came up empty on two of them (pitchers Mark Appel in 2013 and Brady Aiken in 2014 who never made the majors) and nearly blew it in 2012 when he had decided to take Appel over Correa, the universally acknowledged best player in the draft, only to back off when Appel’s rep Scott Boras wouldn’t give him a discount bonus.

 

Also, in all fairness, Bregman was pretty important and Cameron was an integral aspect of the Verlander deal.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Ducksnort]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bill-madden-driving-white-sox-211700294.html
NY Daily News story…looks at Sox success with scouting picking high character college players like Rodon, Burger and Collins

 

We’ll get to that in a minute. In the meantime, to put the White Sox‘s unparalleled draft success in perspective, after failing to sign Gerrit Cole (their No. 1 pick in 2008), the Yankees have had 16 first-round draft picks, with only one — Aaron Judge in 2013 — even making it to the big leagues with them. On their present roster, there are only five players who were drafted by them — Judge, Brett Gardner, Kyle Higashioka, Jordan Montgomery and Nick Nelson.

At the same time, there are the Houston Astros, who under analytics guru Jeff Luhnow, executed a tear-down back in 2012 with the idea of using all their analytics data to build the team up with high draft picks. When they won the World Series in 2017 (before it was compromised by their cheating scandal), Luhnow and the Astros were acclaimed throughout baseball for their analytics-first approach to building a ballclub — at the same time they were gutting their scouting department.

But upon closer inspection, it’s hard to see how analytics had anything to do with the Astros’ rise. On that 2017 team, there were only four players — Carlos Correa, Lance McCullers Jr., George Springer and Dallas Keuchel — who were obtained through the draft and Springer was a No. 1 pick by Luhnow’s predecessor, Ed Wade, who also had signed Jose Altuve back in 2007. Moreover, Luhnow had three straight overall No. 1 picks in the draft from 2012-2014, came up empty on two of them (pitchers Mark Appel in 2013 and Brady Aiken in 2014 who never made the majors) and nearly blew it in 2012 when he had decided to take Appel over Correa, the universally acknowledged best player in the draft, only to back off when Appel’s rep Scott Boras wouldn’t give him a discount bonus.

 

Also, in all fairness, Bregman was pretty important and Cameron was an important part of the Verlander deal.

 

Excellent article. The story of the Sox rebuild and their current team truly is remarkable. I wish more people around baseball would recognize it. Maybe they will after the team gets deep in the playoffs. But each one of these guys has had to face some major adversity and maneuver some tricky obstacles to get to where they are.

And kudos to the scouting team. 

[bmags]

I was actually thinking about Sox v yankees yesterday.

You know how the Yankees always have these prospects we all know of, that make their way into top 100 lists and we get national writers on their minor league progress constantly?

They all seem to bust. In fairness, they’ll find a Gio urshela out of nowhere.

Meanwhile the all star rosters come out. Marcus Semien, Narvaez, Escobar, Bassitt. All ho hum Sox prospects. (And Tatis)

The only place that seems to value Sox prospects accurately is Oakland.

The Sox thankfully seem to be self scouting much better recently.

[35thstreetswarm]

It’s always interesting to see the outsider’s perspective on the Sox and their success, which is often simpler, and in my opinion more accurate, than the ones that proliferate among hardcore Sox fans who are just a little too close to, and personally invested in, the rebuild process.  The Sox drafted well.  The rebuild worked.  We have lots of good players now.  Enjoy.

[Ducksnort]

33 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It’s always interesting to see the outsider’s perspective on the Sox and their success, which is often simpler, and in my opinion more accurate, than the ones that proliferate among hardcore Sox fans who are just a little too close to, and personally invested in, the rebuild process.  The Sox drafted well.  The rebuild worked.  We have lots of good players now.  Enjoy.

Absolutely 

[poppysox]

34 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It’s always interesting to see the outsider’s perspective on the Sox and their success, which is often simpler, and in my opinion more accurate, than the ones that proliferate among hardcore Sox fans who are just a little too close to, and personally invested in, the rebuild process.  The Sox drafted well.  The rebuild worked.  We have lots of good players now.  Enjoy.

We cashed in on 3 quality players (Sale, Q, Eaton) who were under favorable contracts.  Had several quality drafts and some nice international signings. Also picked up several quality FA's at high but affordable prices.   Rick Hahn should be given much credit for building this powerhouse on a middle-of-the-road budget.

[Pants Rowland]

I have not read the article yet, but I have noticed what appears to be a high percentage of young Sox position player callups  making an immediate positive impact this year. I can not recall anything like it in my 40 years of watching the Sox, even during the Himes era. It is like the 2000s Twins the way every random dude comes up and contributes. 

It may be all drafting and good trades, but I am curious if Chris Getz also has played a significant role in his revamp of the player development side of the organization. We seem to be producing better all around ballplayers and not just the good body natural athlete guys that flopped here (and sometimes found success elsewhere after struggles) in the past. 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Pants Rowland said:

I have not read the article yet, but I have noticed what appears to be a high percentage of young Sox position player callups  making an immediate positive impact this year. I can not recall anything like it in my 40 years of watching the Sox, even during the Himes era. It is like the 2000s Twins the way every random dude comes up and contributes. 

It may be all drafting and good trades, but I am curious if Chris Getz also has played a significant role in his revamp of the player development side of the organization. We seem to be producing better all around ballplayers and not just the good body natural athlete guys that flopped here (and sometimes found success elsewhere after struggles) in the past. 

Getz deserves a ton of credit. But Hostetler went after guys with good makeup and they have survived adversity so much better than many of our position player picks 2005-2015

[Nokona]

Time to thank Hahn and Hostetler.  The hype was real. 

[southsider2k5]

I will mention it here again.  Every single White Sox top draft picks since Tim Anderson in 2013 has made it to the big leagues with the White Sox at some point.  The draft and development team which was a mockery about a decade ago, has figured it out to a high degree.

[SpringfieldFan]

And coincidentally Blake Rutherford came from the NYY as one of the high ceiling prospects in our rebuild and has been one of the few disappointments.

I think the reason for the success of the rebuild has been because a "gamble" that paid off, which was probably less of a gamble due to how well they have been at projecting green talent. At the beginning of the rebuild the Sox system was ranked a bit lower than a couple of the others because the trade-off for the high ceilings of their acquisitions was the fact they were so young that it was hard to predict which ones would fulfill it. Amazingly nearly all of them have so far, injuries notwithstanding.

 

[mqr]

2 hours ago, Nokona said:

Time to thank Hahn and Hostetler.  The hype was real. 

Kinda funny in retrospect that hostetler was pseudo fired

[mqr]

Also Tim as a drafting and development story is so wildly good that if you told me it could happen ten years ago I’d call you a dummy

[caulfield12]

45 minutes ago, mqr said:

Kinda funny in retrospect that hostetler was pseudo fired

If you look back to just a year ago, Fulmer, Burger, Rodon, Collins, Burdi, etc., all looked like failures.  Sheets, as well.  Yermin had 2-3 outspoken defenders who wanted to give him a shot at DH, and that was pretty much it, besides the big four guys graduating from rookie status this year.

The crazy part to me in all this is that Madrigal was starting to look in many ways like the second best of all those draft picks after Anderson.  He hardly gets mentioned anymore because of the Disney-ish Carlos and Burgatron storylines.
 

That and the draft “miss” on Fulmer versus the less highly touted Vanderbilt teammate at the time Walker Buehler.

Edited July 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Dominikk85]

I wouldn't say the draft was a big driving force in their success yet. Maybe it will be in the future if Vaughn, crochet, Burger, madrigal all hit big, but really most of their productive guys right now are from trades (giolito, Lynn, cease, eloy) or international signings (abreu, Robert) or free agent signings (grandal). 

The only drafted guys with double digit career WAR are Anderson and rodon. 

I would say the biggest factor was how well the Sox hit on those big trades. Sure they had great players to sell but Really almost none of their guys busted and kopech, cease, giolito, dunning (who brought in Lynn) and eloy all seem to be above average mlb players. 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Dominikk85

[Nokona]

13 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

I wouldn't say the draft was a big driving force in their success yet. Maybe it will be in the future if Vaughn, crochet, Burger, madrigal all hit big, but really most of their productive guys right now are from trades (giolito, Lynn, cease, eloy) or international signings (abreu, Robert) or free agent signings (grandal). 

The only drafted guys with double digit career WAR are Anderson and rodon. 

I would say the biggest factor was how well the Sox hit on those big trades. Sure they had great players to sell but Really almost none of their guys busted and kopech, cease, giolito, dunning (who brought in Lynn) and eloy all seem to be above average mlb players. 

 

I mean Vaughn, Crochet, Burger and Madrigal only have like 100 games played a piece.  Of course they don't have double digit career WAR yet

[mqr]

58 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

I wouldn't say the draft was a big driving force in their success yet. Maybe it will be in the future if Vaughn, crochet, Burger, madrigal all hit big, but really most of their productive guys right now are from trades (giolito, Lynn, cease, eloy) or international signings (abreu, Robert) or free agent signings (grandal). 

The only drafted guys with double digit career WAR are Anderson and rodon. 

I would say the biggest factor was how well the Sox hit on those big trades. Sure they had great players to sell but Really almost none of their guys busted and kopech, cease, giolito, dunning (who brought in Lynn) and eloy all seem to be above average mlb players. 

 

The 2021 team is Twins bad without the draft picks playing well though

[Quin]

2 hours ago, mqr said:

The 2021 team is Twins bad without the draft picks playing well though

Yup. Right now, the stars / core aren't draft picks (outside of Anderson), but a lot of the depth has been – if we had all this in 2016 (and the the free agents had been performing) the Sale / Q / Eaton era might have gone differently.

[caulfield12]

29 minutes ago, Quin said:

Yup. Right now, the stars / core aren't draft picks (outside of Anderson), but a lot of the depth has been – if we had all this in 2016 (and the the free agents had been performing) the Sale / Q / Eaton era might have gone differently.

The Courtney Hawkins Era of White Sox baseball.

Also have to give a lot of credit to Engel persevering the last couple of years…when he can actually stay on the field.

And Yermin’s April.

Edited July 11, 2021 by caulfield12

[Jack Parkman]

Yep, it's not fair to say that the Sox suck at developing talent at the moment......however let's see what happens when they stop picking near the top of each round. 

If they can still develop players over the next 3-5 seasons, then sure.......

[Chick Mercedes]

The most overlooked area is the lack of  production from international free agency. (Non Cuban mega contract variety players) Lots of work to do there, and then stop trading them away when you have them. Surprising success with the draft picks lately picking up steam. The Sox can finish the job and maintain success. Will they?

Edited July 11, 2021 by Chick Mercedes

[Stinky Stanky]

11 hours ago, bmags said:

I was actually thinking about Sox v yankees yesterday.

You know how the Yankees always have these prospects we all know of, that make their way into top 100 lists and we get national writers on their minor league progress constantly?

They all seem to bust. In fairness, they’ll find a Gio urshela out of nowhere.

Meanwhile the all star rosters come out. Marcus Semien, Narvaez, Escobar, Bassitt. All ho hum Sox prospects. (And Tatis)

The only place that seems to value Sox prospects accurately is Oakland.

The Sox thankfully seem to be self scouting much better recently.

At least they got value for Narvaez and replaced him easily.  The others?  Hurts to think about it.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

At least they got value for Narvaez and replaced him easily.  The others?  Hurts to think about it.

Well, except McCann/Colome became Hendriks and Grandal/Collins and now the payroll is limiting what we can do for the time being.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

The most overlooked area is the lack of  production from international free agency. (Non Cuban mega contract variety players) Lots of work to do there, and then stop trading them away when you have them. Surprising success with the draft picks lately picking up steam. The Sox can finish the job and maintain success. Will they?

Not to mention but while in the rebuild they dumped international bonus pool money a couple of times too.

Sox Machine Article from 11/1/2019

https://www.soxmachine.com/2019/11/01/white-sox-continue-shedding-international-money-while-rebuilding-for-some-reason/

 

 

[GreenSox]

Actually, most of the Astros best players Are/WERE draftees. 
Most of the Sox' best players aren't draftees.   But the draftees are currently providing a lot of depth and making it up in volume.

And several of these guys contributing on the major league team are also probably part of the 30th-ranked farm system.  it's all so weird.