CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, SCCWS said: Agree but I was talking about strictly offense. Vaughn, Madrigal, Eloy and Robert do not address RF and C long term. You don't need long term options for every position unless you are drafting it or paying big money for a guy like Bryce Harper you just feel lucky to get a short term guy to perform above average for a couple of years. The Sox have a good amount of long term options which is why I mentioned those guys. Lots of teams win consistently using short term guys and catchers who can't hit very well but call a good game , frame well and have good technique blocking pitches. Most trades you make are for short term guys as are the usual space the Sox operate from on Free Agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Not to mention the Tigers are closing the gap fast…the biggest question is whether the son will spend like the father (or remain leery after watching the Cabrera contract painfully wind down.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 At this point we just need to keep that pipeline to Latin America. If we do well in that area we will be okay. Then draft BPA with our late first and second round picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, SonofaRoache said: At this point we just need to keep that pipeline to Latin America. If we do well in that area we will be okay. Then draft BPA with our late first and second round picks. The problem is that there are limited opportunities to exploit this advantage. It not like the 2016 intl. cycle where the Padres were able to exploit the system and spend $70-80 million in one fell swoop, and added Tatis as well via trade. Maybe if we did a better job covering Japan and Korea… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You don't need long term options for every position unless you are drafting it or paying big money for a guy like Bryce Harper you just feel lucky to get a short term guy to perform above average for a couple of years. The Sox have a good amount of long term options which is why I mentioned those guys. Lots of teams win consistently using short term guys and catchers who can't hit very well but call a good game , frame well and have good technique blocking pitches. Most trades you make are for short term guys as are the usual space the Sox operate from on Free Agency. I disagree. The Sox have done a great job this season patching together an outfield and won w them. But they really have 3 outfield positions and 1 MLB outfielder in Robert. Now we have Eloy but is he long term LF? Vaughn? Eaton in RF? Engel a starter or 4th OF. Is there a prospect in the organization that looks to be a pretty sure bet? I hope either at the trade deadline or next winter the Sox determine who is playing LF and RF next year and if it is still questionable go out and get someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, SCCWS said: I disagree. The Sox have done a great job this season patching together an outfield and won w them. But they really have 3 outfield positions and 1 MLB outfielder in Robert. Now we have Eloy but is he long term LF? Vaughn? Eaton in RF? Engel a starter or 4th OF. Is there a prospect in the organization that looks to be a pretty sure bet? I hope either at the trade deadline or next winter the Sox determine who is playing LF and RF next year and if it is still questionable go out and get someone. Well, you can already cross Eaton off that list. And not be shocked if one of the other spots is Engel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) On 7/11/2021 at 3:01 AM, FriendlyNorthsider said: I'm sorry in advance if this has been covered elsewhere or is the wrong place but Eric Longenhagen of Fangraphs released his updated Farm System Rankings and the Sox are dead last. The Sox are probably top 5 in the league in under 25 year old talent so this highly misleading, but is in important consideration as the deadline approaches. The Sox are inside their championship window and are golden for at least three years thanks to some great trades by Hahn and nailing most every first rounder for the past three years. The state of the system is strong, despite it being dangerously top heavy. The biggest issue with this is that the Sox have a LOT less trade capital in the minors than most the other sellers at the deadline. The Dodgers have 10 pitchers and 5 hitters at or above Jared Kelley. The Rays, Padres, Red Sox, and Mets are way ahead as well. Oakland and Houston, who are in the bottom third, each have nearly triple the value in prospects. The Sox have starting pitching issues: Lynn and Rodon after this season, then Keuchel after 22 and Giolito after 23. Yes, Kopech and hopefully Crochet will enter the rotation, but there's not a lot of depth there. Any weakness in SP will put this team into that 83-89 win purgatory. I would guess , when the farm system is ranked last (!!), there is not a lot to trade. And there is no excuse for it to be last: the Dodgers, Tribe, Astros, RedSox are neither last nor wallowed in the mire most of the last decade. The Padres wallowed, but they aren't last. And the Sox shouldn't be either. Nevertheless, the Sox have generally churned out more good players than the farm rankings would suggest they could. The glaring example was 2014-2016 talent churn, which, sadly, was completely squandered. Hopefully that (the development; not the squandering) continues. Sox can't trade a lot of farm talent to go all in this year. This rebuild and all the associated pain for a decade can't have been for just 1 or 2 years. 8 years of pain for 2-3 years of pleasure is just not the right ratio. Edited July 12, 2021 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, GreenSox said: The Sox have starting pitching issues: Lynn and Rodon after this season, then Keuchel after 22 and Giolito after 23. Yes, Kopech and hopefully Crochet will enter the rotation, but there's not a lot of depth there. Any weakness in SP will put this team into that 83-89 win purgatory. I would guess , when the farm system is ranked last (!!), there is not a lot to trade. And there is no excuse for it to be last: the Dodgers, Tribe, Astros, RedSox are neither last nor wallowed in the mire most of the last decade. The Padres wallowed, but they aren't last. And the Sox shouldn't be either. Nevertheless, the Sox have generally churned out more good players than the farm rankings would suggest they could. The glaring example was 2014-2016 talent churn, which, sadly, was completely squandered. Hopefully that (the development; not the squandering) continues. Sox can't trade a lot of farm talent to go all in this year. This rebuild and all the associated pain for a decade can't have been for just 1 or 2 years. 8 years of pain for 2-3 years of pleasure is just not the right ratio. That said, most would prefer Keuchel gone after next season and money better reinvested. Minnesota is tearing down, the Indians will eventually trade Ramirez (perhaps this offseason) if Bieber is out long term…KC has a long ways to go with their starters and the Tigers with their position players. Hard to imagine anyone but the Tigers emerging as a serious rival in the next 2-3 seasons. Even an 86-89 win team likely is enough to get to the postseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, GreenSox said: The Sox have starting pitching issues: Lynn and Rodon after this season, then Keuchel after 22 and Giolito after 23. Yes, Kopech and hopefully Crochet will enter the rotation, but there's not a lot of depth there. Any weakness in SP will put this team into that 83-89 win purgatory. I would guess , when the farm system is ranked last (!!), there is not a lot to trade. And there is no excuse for it to be last: the Dodgers, Tribe, Astros, RedSox are neither last nor wallowed in the mire most of the last decade. The Padres wallowed, but they aren't last. And the Sox shouldn't be either. Nevertheless, the Sox have generally churned out more good players than the farm rankings would suggest they could. The glaring example was 2014-2016 talent churn, which, sadly, was completely squandered. Hopefully that (the development; not the squandering) continues. Sox can't trade a lot of farm talent to go all in this year. This rebuild and all the associated pain for a decade can't have been for just 1 or 2 years. 8 years of pain for 2-3 years of pleasure is just not the right ratio. I'm trying to understand your post. You rightly point out the starting pitcher issues for the near future and even go so far as to say that any weakness puts the Sox in the barely over .500 territory. Yet you ignore your own knowledge by saying the Sox can't trade a lot of farm talent to go all in. What if "this rebuild and all the associated pain for a decade" actually does turn out to be "2-3 years of pleasure" because the bottom ranked farm system doesn't provide what's necessary to continue the sustained success we have been promised. Then we only have Jerry's pocketbook and the ability of Hahn to make good trades to sustain the window . You will reap what you sow if you trust JR and Hahn to guide this team to sustained success. We were told repeatedly by Rick Hahn that the goal of the process was to ensure the White Sox “were competing for multiple championships.” https://ontapsportsnet.com/2020/02/10/defining-success-for-the-white-sox-in-the-competitive-window/ Wouldn't it be better to go for it by trading that talent to help the team now ,when we have the pitching ,rather than wait until we no longer have the pitching ? The Padres built a great farm system and have made a lot of trades but they had a plan going back to 2016 on how to build the farm. I'm not sure the Sox ever had a plan to build the farm. Sure they built the farm by trading Sale, Eaton and Quintana but a plan outside of that , one to go hand in hand with sustaining success never seemed to materialize. We still saw them trading away international, money and taking gambles on other teams rejects like Palka, Skole, AJ Reed and others like most teams do. They didn't invest in players to try to flip them for more international money or minor leaguers. Instead they invested in friends of Manny Machado to try to lure him to the Sox. Does everyone conveniently forget these wonderful plans to sustain the farm system ? I'm going to give you links about how the Padres did it and when they started it and sustained it. Maybe no one reads them but it doesn't sound like how the Sox have done it at all . The Padres had players graduate to the majors and traded half their top 30 prospects yet still had the 6th or 7th ranked farm system https://www.mlb.com/news/how-the-padres-rebuilt-their-farm-in-9-months-c193571200 https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/comparing-padres-rebuild-cubs-mets-astros/ https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/a-j-preller-and-the-san-diego-padres-have-built-a-monster-farm-system-01dm2y62b3mn https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/padres-join-excellent-company-as-no-1-farm-system/ https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/yu-darvish-trade-grades-padres-cubs/1m9d0eavxu9tk1uybp77g50i0a https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2020-12-28/padres-farm-system-blake-snell-trade-luis-patino https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2021-02-10/padres-farm-system-baseball-america-rankings-mackenzie-gore-cj-abrams https://friarsonbase.com/2021/02/10/padres-farm-system-ranked-seventh-best/ https://friarsonbase.com/2021/03/18/padres-top-prospects-farm-system-rankings/ The Sox did a good job of getting good minor league talent for good major league talent with good contracts. But did they ever get a superstar by trading someone who sucked with a big contract ? That's essentially how the Padres got Tatis, jr. from the Sox a measly 6 months or so before the Sox decided they didn't have the brains or wouldn't spend enough money to find a way to win without tearing it all down. Don't worry if the Sox miss the playoffs next year and Keuchel sucks maybe Hahn can trade him and find the next Tatis, Jr. Good luck with that. Edited July 12, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 System got a lot better within the last 24 hours Colas will help soon too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Just now, ChiSoxJon said: System got a lot better within the last 24 hours Colas will help soon too Montgomery, Kath, and probably Burke are all Top 10 guys and the others are super interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/11/2021 at 10:46 AM, Chicago White Sox said: Here’s how I have them ranked at the moment: Top 10 List (Pipeline Rank | Level | Age) Jared Kelley, RHP (#1 | Low A | 19) Bryan Ramos, 3B/2B (#12 | Low A | 19) Jake Burger, 3B (#11 | Majors | 25) Yoelqui Cespedes, OF (#2 | High A | 23) Jose Rodriguez, SS (#14 | Low A | 20) Jonathan Stiever, RHP (#4 | AAA | 24) Matthew Thompson, RHP (#3 | Low A | 20) Norge Vera, RHP (#7 | N/A | 21) Andrew Dalquist, RHP (#5 | Low A | 20) Gavin Sheets 1B/OF (#9 | Majors | 25) Baseball Prospectus had a piece on the Top 8 Risers/Fallers during the first half of the minor league season, and Jose "Popeye" Rodriguez was listed among the Risers. Clipped a few sentences from the write-up. Quote Somehow signed for only $50,000 in 2018 out of Valverde, D.R., Rodríguez is stout, muscular, and probably bigger (not in a bad way) than his listed 5-foot-11 and 175 pounds. ...... He really drives the ball already and there is potential above-average power output if he makes improvement to pitch selection. Rodriguez also possesses above-average speed, and has managed to rack up double-digit steals along with his six homers and 15 doubles thus far. The primary present (and possibly future) downside to Jose's game is his defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I'm trying to understand your post. You rightly point out the starting pitcher issues for the near future and even go so far as to say that any weakness puts the Sox in the barely over .500 territory. Yet you ignore your own knowledge by saying the Sox can't trade a lot of farm talent to go all in. What if "this rebuild and all the associated pain for a decade" actually does turn out to be "2-3 years of pleasure" because the bottom ranked farm system doesn't provide what's necessary to continue the sustained success we have been promised. Then we only have Jerry's pocketbook and the ability of Hahn to make good trades to sustain the window . You will reap what you sow if you trust JR and Hahn to guide this team to sustained success. We were told repeatedly by Rick Hahn that the goal of the process was to ensure the White Sox “were competing for multiple championships.” https://ontapsportsnet.com/2020/02/10/defining-success-for-the-white-sox-in-the-competitive-window/ Wouldn't it be better to go for it by trading that talent to help the team now ,when we have the pitching ,rather than wait until we no longer have the pitching ? The Padres built a great farm system and have made a lot of trades but they had a plan going back to 2016 on how to build the farm. I'm not sure the Sox ever had a plan to build the farm. Sure they built the farm by trading Sale, Eaton and Quintana but a plan outside of that , one to go hand in hand with sustaining success never seemed to materialize. We still saw them trading away international, money and taking gambles on other teams rejects like Palka, Skole, AJ Reed and others like most teams do. They didn't invest in players to try to flip them for more international money or minor leaguers. Instead they invested in friends of Manny Machado to try to lure him to the Sox. Does everyone conveniently forget these wonderful plans to sustain the farm system ? I'm going to give you links about how the Padres did it and when they started it and sustained it. Maybe no one reads them but it doesn't sound like how the Sox have done it at all . The Padres had players graduate to the majors and traded half their top 30 prospects yet still had the 6th or 7th ranked farm system https://www.mlb.com/news/how-the-padres-rebuilt-their-farm-in-9-months-c193571200 https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/comparing-padres-rebuild-cubs-mets-astros/ https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/a-j-preller-and-the-san-diego-padres-have-built-a-monster-farm-system-01dm2y62b3mn https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/padres-join-excellent-company-as-no-1-farm-system/ https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/yu-darvish-trade-grades-padres-cubs/1m9d0eavxu9tk1uybp77g50i0a https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2020-12-28/padres-farm-system-blake-snell-trade-luis-patino https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2021-02-10/padres-farm-system-baseball-america-rankings-mackenzie-gore-cj-abrams https://friarsonbase.com/2021/02/10/padres-farm-system-ranked-seventh-best/ https://friarsonbase.com/2021/03/18/padres-top-prospects-farm-system-rankings/ The Sox did a good job of getting good minor league talent for good major league talent with good contracts. But did they ever get a superstar by trading someone who sucked with a big contract ? That's essentially how the Padres got Tatis, jr. from the Sox a measly 6 months or so before the Sox decided they didn't have the brains or wouldn't spend enough money to find a way to win without tearing it all down. Don't worry if the Sox miss the playoffs next year and Keuchel sucks maybe Hahn can trade him and find the next Tatis, Jr. Good luck with that. Ohmigod Cali this is the most ridiculous negative post. We have the top record in all the AL and Bill James, the father of sabermetrics, says players hit their prime at 27. Here are the Sox 27 or younger on the roster NOW....that's 15 guys...and those are almost all of our star players...and they are JUST BEGINNING. We have five years with just this group. Garrett Crochet 22 Andrew Vaughn 23 Luis Robert 23 Codi Heuer 24 Eloy Jiminez 24 Nick Madrigal 24 Michael Kopech 25 Dylan Cease 25 Gavin Sheets 25 Jake Burger 25 Lucas Giolito 26 Matt Foster 26 Jose Ruiz 26 Yoan Moncada 26 Zack Collins 26 You know why our Farm system is ranked so poorly?? Because our young guys are SO good they are in the majors. Man if you want to continue to sour puss over the random bad luck of Tatis...or the possibility that the White Sox won't sign free agents even though there is lots of evidence that they will (top five pay roll in 00's, 90's and 80's when the team was competitive...Sox are currently $50 MILLION under the top five payroll) go for it. But almost all evidence is the team is on the cusp of greatness and I'd sure like more of the regulars on Soxtalk to recognize that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Ohmigod Cali this is the most ridiculous negative post. We have the top record in all the AL and Bill James, the father of sabermetrics, says players hit their prime at 27. Here are the Sox 27 or younger on the roster NOW....that's 15 guys...and those are almost all of our star players...and they are JUST BEGINNING. We have five years with just this group. Garrett Crochet 22 Andrew Vaughn 23 Luis Robert 23 Codi Heuer 24 Eloy Jiminez 24 Nick Madrigal 24 Michael Kopech 25 Dylan Cease 25 Gavin Sheets 25 Jake Burger 25 Lucas Giolito 26 Matt Foster 26 Jose Ruiz 26 Yoan Moncada 26 Zack Collins 26 You know why our Farm system is ranked so poorly?? Because our young guys are SO good they are in the majors. Man if you want to continue to sour puss over the random bad luck of Tatis...or the possibility that the White Sox won't sign free agents even though there is lots of evidence that they will (top five pay roll in 00's, 90's and 80's when the team was competitive...Sox are currently $50 MILLION under the top five payroll) go for it. But almost all evidence is the team is on the cusp of greatness and I'd sure like more of the regulars on Soxtalk to recognize that. I don't think it's negative or ridiculous at all. I know all the young talent we currently possess . Yes the Sox guys are so good they are in the majors now but it's not like I am the first one to say the Sox had a top heavy Farm System. Anyone who's been paying attention to the Sox farm knew this. And that's facts are as I presented them during the rebuild about trading Int'l money away and spending money on Manny's friends. I didn't even go into how they have only in the years few years upgraded biomechanics and analytics because it would ve taken a lot more research and a much longer post to support my claims that the Sox didn't make changes fast enough to make the talent on the farm deeper nor simply didn't care about it enough judging by the Machado fiasco and trading away money. i know there are a certain amount of very positive posters who don't like negative posts but if you objectively look at the ownership of the team and see the results of so so many top 5 payrolls it always ends the same way. No sustained success. Feel free to trust the Sox to do the things you fully expect them to do. I won't call your post overly positive or ridiculous. I love the Sox and am enjoying this season very much. That's why I want the Sox to win the World Series this year when the talent level is in all likelihood at the peak as far as a balance between pitching and hitting. You won't find me in game threads complaining about every decisions TLR makes or the lineup. I keep my eyes focused on the big picture and what to expect in the future from indicators from the past. Apparently you trust JR . It's not like there has ever been any sustained success. It's always been one and done despite you pointing out the obvious to me. I am optimistic for this year but cynical for sustained success. You can believe in Santa Clause if you want to but it's not ridiculous if I don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/11/2021 at 10:46 AM, Chicago White Sox said: Here’s how I have them ranked at the moment: Top 10 List (Pipeline Rank | Level | Age) Jared Kelley, RHP (#1 | Low A | 19) Bryan Ramos, 3B/2B (#12 | Low A | 19) Jake Burger, 3B (#11 | Majors | 25) Yoelqui Cespedes, OF (#2 | High A | 23) Jose Rodriguez, SS (#14 | Low A | 20) Jonathan Stiever, RHP (#4 | AAA | 24) Matthew Thompson, RHP (#3 | Low A | 20) Norge Vera, RHP (#7 | N/A | 21) Andrew Dalquist, RHP (#5 | Low A | 20) Gavin Sheets 1B/OF (#9 | Majors | 25) Montgomery/Kath are likely in or near top 10 system prospects at this point, with Burke likely being in the top 15 The system has had so many graduations as of late that it should be no surprise that the cupboard is pretty bare. Colas signing will help over the winter, but this is still a bottom 5 farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 9 hours ago, SCCWS said: I disagree. The Sox have done a great job this season patching together an outfield and won w them. But they really have 3 outfield positions and 1 MLB outfielder in Robert. Now we have Eloy but is he long term LF? Vaughn? Eaton in RF? Engel a starter or 4th OF. Is there a prospect in the organization that looks to be a pretty sure bet? I hope either at the trade deadline or next winter the Sox determine who is playing LF and RF next year and if it is still questionable go out and get someone. I wouldn't mind a platoon of Engel and Goodwin for a year in RF. The thought of Vaughn playing LF next year is acceptable as well. We've got Cespedes and Colas coming, hopefully by 2023. The one wild card in all this could be Yoan, If he would accept a move to the outfield for the good of the team.. Burger could then slide in at 3B. Luckily the Sox are young. This will help while we rebuild the system. One last thing we have going for us, is the Cuban connection. We do better than just about any body there. It acts as a draft supplement every couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I don't think it's negative or ridiculous at all. I know all the young talent we currently possess . Yes the Sox guys are so good they are in the majors now but it's not like I am the first one to say the Sox had a top heavy Farm System. Anyone who's been paying attention to the Sox farm knew this. And that's facts are as I presented them during the rebuild about trading Int'l money away and spending money on Manny's friends. I didn't even go into how they have only in the years few years upgraded biomechanics and analytics because it would ve taken a lot more research and a much longer post to support my claims that the Sox didn't make changes fast enough to make the talent on the farm deeper nor simply didn't care about it enough judging by the Machado fiasco and trading away money. i know there are a certain amount of very positive posters who don't like negative posts but if you objectively look at the ownership of the team and see the results of so so many top 5 payrolls it always ends the same way. No sustained success. Feel free to trust the Sox to do the things you fully expect them to do. I won't call your post overly positive or ridiculous. I love the Sox and am enjoying this season very much. That's why I want the Sox to win the World Series this year when the talent level is in all likelihood at the peak as far as a balance between pitching and hitting. You won't find me in game threads complaining about every decisions TLR makes or the lineup. I keep my eyes focused on the big picture and what to expect in the future from indicators from the past. Apparently you trust JR . It's not like there has ever been any sustained success. It's always been one and done despite you pointing out the obvious to me. I am optimistic for this year but cynical for sustained success. You can believe in Santa Clause if you want to but it's not ridiculous if I don't. http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2013_payroll White Sox payroll ranks 2016. 20 2015. 15 2014. 20 2013. 8 2012. 11 2011. 5 2010. 7 2009. 12 2008. 5 2007. 5 2006. 4 2005. 13 2004. 14 2003. 22 2002. 18 2001. 16 2000. 26 Stripping away 2000, a surprise playoff season, you get an average of 12th. But that’s not considering how high top tier the prices for everything (tickets, parking, concessions) were up until the last 5-10 years, where the revenues were consistently higher than average attendance of around let’s say 18th - 24th. To be a Top 4-5 payroll, or even catch the Padres, they would have to increase by at least $40+ million. Nobody expects Top 3, or likely even 4-5, but the last half decade of NOT spending (2016-2019/20) in the top half should get some type of return for the fans’ patience with the rebuild…and seven consecutive non-competitive seasons from 2013-2019, despite the first month+ of 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I don't think it's negative or ridiculous at all. I know all the young talent we currently possess . Yes the Sox guys are so good they are in the majors now but it's not like I am the first one to say the Sox had a top heavy Farm System. Anyone who's been paying attention to the Sox farm knew this. And that's facts are as I presented them during the rebuild about trading Int'l money away and spending money on Manny's friends. I didn't even go into how they have only in the years few years upgraded biomechanics and analytics because it would ve taken a lot more research and a much longer post to support my claims that the Sox didn't make changes fast enough to make the talent on the farm deeper nor simply didn't care about it enough judging by the Machado fiasco and trading away money. i know there are a certain amount of very positive posters who don't like negative posts but if you objectively look at the ownership of the team and see the results of so so many top 5 payrolls it always ends the same way. No sustained success. Feel free to trust the Sox to do the things you fully expect them to do. I won't call your post overly positive or ridiculous. I love the Sox and am enjoying this season very much. That's why I want the Sox to win the World Series this year when the talent level is in all likelihood at the peak as far as a balance between pitching and hitting. You won't find me in game threads complaining about every decisions TLR makes or the lineup. I keep my eyes focused on the big picture and what to expect in the future from indicators from the past. Apparently you trust JR . It's not like there has ever been any sustained success. It's always been one and done despite you pointing out the obvious to me. I am optimistic for this year but cynical for sustained success. You can believe in Santa Clause if you want to but it's not ridiculous if I don't. You are generally one of my favorite posters...but I think two things are unfair...1) suggesting the Tatis disaster was some sort of systematic failure. Red Sox traded 80 career WAR Jeff Bagwell to Houston for 22 innings of Larry Anderson...that was a systematic failure...trading the 30th ranked prospect in all of baseball for a middle reliever in a walk year was bad thinking. Like trading Cespedes for Ian Kennedy...so risky. And I know you hated the James Shields trade but the Sox throwing in a nobody that was available a month before to any MLB team that was willing to pay chump change for him wasn't risky...until it was a total disaster. Including a lottery ticket in a birthday card is a funny joke until it hits for $100 million...and then it's the dumbest thing you ever did. Everyone feels bad about the bad luck...but every single trade any team ever makes has the chance of blowing up. 2) listing the "failures of the rebuild" as some kind of evidence of organizational incompetance. Signing crappy free agents was the plan...running out bad players was the plan. Losing lots of games for five years, while painful, was the plan. Now we are witnessing the plan succeeding. As for trusting JR...I think he's a businessman and I think he loves the White Sox...he wants to win but has a budget. They did have some sustained success...that five years from 90-94 they won an average of 90 games a year...culminating in the greatest team I ever saw...that never had a chance to win because of the strike. 2000-2006 they also won about 90 games a year including winning a WS. Hey it's not a glorious franchise but it's ours...and now is our time in the sun...dunking on something as silly as someone's evaluation of our 20 year old prospects seems mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 3 hours ago, steveno89 said: Montgomery/Kath are likely in or near top 10 system prospects at this point, with Burke likely being in the top 15 The system has had so many graduations as of late that it should be no surprise that the cupboard is pretty bare. Colas signing will help over the winter, but this is still a bottom 5 farm. Montgomery is pretty much the slam dunk #1 and Kath is arguably #2 overall. Just depends on how much your valuation of Kelley changes with a tough 2021 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Montgomery is pretty much the slam dunk #1 and Kath is arguably #2 overall. Just depends on how much your valuation of Kelley changes with a tough 2021 season. Is it crazy to think Jose Rodriguez is the best prospect in the system? Eric Longenhagen had a 40+ FV on Rodriguez entering the season, which is the same grade he has on Montgomery, and I think Rodriguez has pretty clearly improved his prospect stock from where he was when the FG list was published in December. Rodriguez would be #1 on my prospect list right now but it seems as if that's a minority opinion. Give me that combination of hit tool, power, speed, ability to play a premium position, plus 3 different years of a strong statistical track record. If Montgomery hits the way Rodriguez has at Kanny (assuming he goes there) I think we'd all be thrilled. Edited July 13, 2021 by maxjusttyped 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 5 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Baseball Prospectus had a piece on the Top 8 Risers/Fallers during the first half of the minor league season, and Jose "Popeye" Rodriguez was listed among the Risers. Clipped a few sentences from the write-up. I’m more concerned about an overly aggressive approach at the plate hurting him as he moves up levels than his defense, but regardless he’s one of the more exciting prospects in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said: Is it crazy to think Jose Rodriguez is the best prospect in the system? Eric Longenhagen had a 40+ FV on Rodriguez entering the season, which is the same grade he has on Montgomery, and I think Rodriguez has pretty clearly improved his prospect stock from where he was when the FG list was published in December. Rodriguez would be #1 on my prospect list right now but it seems as if that's a minority opinion. Give me that combination of hit tool, power, speed, ability to play a premium position, plus 3 different years of a strong statistical track record. If Montgomery hits the way Rodriguez has at Kanny (assuming he goes there) I think we'd all be thrilled. I’d personally take Ramos over Rodriguez. Either way, I’d take Colson over both of them. Think about it this way, would Rodriguez be the in the mix 22nd pick in this year’s draft if eligible? As fun / exciting of a prospect as he is, I don’t think he’s anywhere near that conversion. Also, I believe Longenhagen is lower on Montgomery than most of the other experts (except Law). And I say all this a big Rodriguez fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjusttyped Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’d personally take Ramos over Rodriguez. Either way, I’d take Colson over both of them. Think about it this way, would Rodriguez be the in the mix 22nd pick in this year’s draft if eligible? As fun / exciting of a prospect as he is, I don’t think he’s anywhere near that conversion. Also, I believe Longenhagen is lower on Montgomery than most of the other experts (except Law). And I say all this a big Rodriguez fan. Given his age, tools, and history of production, I think that he would. It's fine to disagree on this, but one reason I'm a big fan of the FV grades on Fangraphs is that it allows you to directly compare prospects regardless of the level of baseball they're currently at. All things being equal, I think a ~20 year old international prospect in Low A is going to receive less prospect coverage than they would if the tools were the same and they're a draft eligible prospect. I know there's a scouting element to this as well, but if Montgomery were to go to Kanny and put up a 117 wRC+ with an elite strikeout rate I think everyone here would be thrilled about that. Rodriguez is only 9 months older than Montgomery, he has very good tools, and he also has a multi year track record of good statistical production. Given the fact their ages is so similar, the bit more certainty is why I'd put Rodriguez ahead of Montgomery on my personal rankings, but I understand why others would disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, maxjusttyped said: Given his age, tools, and history of production, I think that he would. It's fine to disagree on this, but one reason I'm a big fan of the FV grades on Fangraphs is that it allows you to directly compare prospects regardless of the level of baseball they're currently at. All things being equal, I think a ~20 year old international prospect in Low A is going to receive less prospect coverage than they would if the tools were the same and they're a draft eligible prospect. I know there's a scouting element to this as well, but if Montgomery were to go to Kanny and put up a 117 wRC+ with an elite strikeout rate I think everyone here would be thrilled about that. Rodriguez is only 9 months older than Montgomery, he has very good tools, and he also has a multi year track record of good statistical production. Given the fact their ages is so similar, the bit more certainty is why I'd put Rodriguez ahead of Montgomery on my personal rankings, but I understand why others would disagree. It’s waning, but first round draft pick “halos” have surrounded players ever since BA started doing their prospect rankings. Look how long Rutherford has held onto such status based on his original selection by the Yankees. It’s also why Burger and even Sheets are getting a lot more notice now…IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 hours ago, ChiSoxJon said: System got a lot better within the last 24 hours Colas will help soon too Can't you say the same about most organizations after the draft? I'd imagine our ranking didn't change much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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