The Nick Hostetler 5 Year Review

[bmags]

So good topic for the ASB for those that are okay reading a long ass post but I don't care because it took time so instead of giving you the info upfront, I'll force you to read my journey like a food blog (jk, i'll give you info up front then you'll have to stay out of guilt)

Obviously, the white sox have gone through a lot of injuries this year, and it has led to a number of rookies coming up that have performed well. Nick Hostetler was the Scouting Director for the 2016-2019 drafts and responsible for most all of these guys that have come up.

As someone that didn't care for Hostetler, the whole last year has caused me to re-evaluate, but the question of "did he do a good job" is always hard with drafting because:

1) we are only 5 years away from his first draft, and 2 from his last draft

2) compared to what?

There is so much stuff to follow within the white sox itself that it's hard to follow how they compare to other orgs, and we are usually comparing them to their past selves. So I looked at 2 orgs I felt draft well, and then the rest of the ALC to try and get the first draft of the answer of "did Hostetler draft well".

So here is what I didn't like about Hostetler:

- Too college heavy, and often unathletic or "maxxed out" college players

- Did not like use of 2nd round picks on college players like Steele Walker (still right) and Gavin Sheets (woops)

- Too many bullpen pitchers and pitchability over stuff arms

I thought the guys had higher floors but ceilings so low they get washed out in A+ or Bham. But then a funny thing happened and a lot of these guys kept coming.

So I looked at # of players that made the majors, games played in majors, and WAR. There is a good chance I undercounted other teams as this was incredibly manual. If someone knows a better way to find this stuff let me know.

I went into this kinda expecting a triumphant answer of damn Hostetler was way better than I thought. But it ended up being a weird middle. I guess I thought I'd walk away being like "wow my judgments of him were way off", but instead what I admired was this:

Hostetler in an interview said the sox knew they needed depth in their minors so he set out to create it. Those were his words, but my interpretation of that was "don't swing for the fences, we need baseball players because the home run hitters are coming via trade". Now, I still take issue with the fact that for most of his time, he said "BPA is what you always have to do" which is weird in baseball and also apparently not what he believed. 

However, the guy had a plan, and he executed it...that's my takeaway.

But I'm still not sure it was the best plan, even as we benefit from it. And my main issue is still 2016.

Now 2016 for the sox actually saw a good amount of Major Leaguers:

Players - Collins, Burdi, Lambert, Flores, Foster, Hamilton 

However, the combined WAR of that 2016 group was -0.9. The players from 2017-2019 provided 4 WAR. So 2016 is almost 50% of the players sent to the majors but like negative 20% or something of the WAR.

And that's the draft that kills me. While some of this is unfair comparison because all of the other teams on this list have comp picks. It's a huge deal. It's a huge leg up, trust me, I'm not discounting it. However, the players that were most impactful to date are hard to say were due to that.

2016 for the padres netted them Cal Quantrill, Eric Lauer and Lucchessi (2.1 WAR). None probably make you swoon, but they are valuable starting pitchers. 2 of which were selected ahead of the sox, but still, the sox were in similar position to try and add this kidn of talent.

The Indians this year? They added Civale in round 3 and Bieber in round 4. The sox drafted Alex Call (netted us Yonder Alonso) and Jameson Fisher (in AA). We had the most capital in 2016, yet walked away with least production, but Collins could be on the up and up.

But thennnnn 2017. 2017 is a trash draft. Pretty much nobody did well, though McKay for the Rays (selected 4th overall) may be the best overall WAR leader when its all said and done. There is little to care about after burger was picked except the Royals suddenly have a guy in Pratto who is crushing this year.

The sox now have Burger and Sheets in the bigs and potentially being solid long time offensive players. So they found good value then. In 2018 - Heuer and Madrigal were huge contributors. And vaughn on the way. But those were the top 5 pick guys. I still think there was a huge lack of finding a really solid non-bullpen late round pick that even teams like the tigers found (Skubal).

Basically he did a good job doing what he wanted to do, I'm not sure it was the best thing to do, but he was still better than most and not as good as the best. 

Baseball!!!!

[beautox]

Nice post, I think he did a solid C+ job and went in with a directive and what he imagined the sox would need at the macro level when the window opened; Burger and Sheets coming back from the dead is a huge boost. I see the org trying to cultivate waves for where they think they'll need support in the near term and 2024 as well and its finger prints are all over the 2021 draft; 2 young good looking middle infielders, a high school pitcher and a very athletic hs outfielder, they're building to supplement future trades and 2024

The way i see the farm is as follows:

You have wave one crashing against the major league roster: Burger, Sheets, Burdi, Lambert, Stiever and Gonzalez. This wave is providing depth but they'll be lucky if they can get one 3WAR stand out.

Wave two, the international signings that are in the system or coming shortly and left handed relievers: Cespedes, Colas (when he signs), Cesar Prieto (when he is cleared and possibly signs with the sox), Yolbert Sanchez, Bailey Horn and Konnor Pilkington

Wave three (late 2023/2024): This is where the organization has shifted its focus and rightfully so: 2B - Rodriguez (20 A), SS - Montgomery* (19), 3B - Kath* (18), LF - Bailey (19 ROK), CF - Krogman* (20 A), 3B - Ramos (19 A) and the high school aged core of Kelley, Thompson, Dalquist, Vera and McDougal.

Sox are in a position where they should continue to go high school heavy at both the international and domestic levels going forward. The core has openings in the corner outfield positions with Vaughn likely taking over for Abreu after this contract; but there could easily be a situation where Sheets or Burger continue to deliver on their draft pedigrees and they take over for Abreu after this contract.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

So good topic for the ASB for those that are okay reading a long ass post but I don't care because it took time so instead of giving you the info upfront, I'll force you to read my journey like a food blog (jk, i'll give you info up front then you'll have to stay out of guilt)

Obviously, the white sox have gone through a lot of injuries this year, and it has led to a number of rookies coming up that have performed well. Nick Hostetler was the Scouting Director for the 2016-2019 drafts and responsible for most all of these guys that have come up.

As someone that didn't care for Hostetler, the whole last year has caused me to re-evaluate, but the question of "did he do a good job" is always hard with drafting because:

1) we are only 5 years away from his first draft, and 2 from his last draft

2) compared to what?

There is so much stuff to follow within the white sox itself that it's hard to follow how they compare to other orgs, and we are usually comparing them to their past selves. So I looked at 2 orgs I felt draft well, and then the rest of the ALC to try and get the first draft of the answer of "did Hostetler draft well".

So here is what I didn't like about Hostetler:

- Too college heavy, and often unathletic or "maxxed out" college players

- Did not like use of 2nd round picks on college players like Steele Walker (still right) and Gavin Sheets (woops)

- Too many bullpen pitchers and pitchability over stuff arms

I thought the guys had higher floors but ceilings so low they get washed out in A+ or Bham. But then a funny thing happened and a lot of these guys kept coming.

So I looked at # of players that made the majors, games played in majors, and WAR. There is a good chance I undercounted other teams as this was incredibly manual. If someone knows a better way to find this stuff let me know.

I went into this kinda expecting a triumphant answer of damn Hostetler was way better than I thought. But it ended up being a weird middle. I guess I thought I'd walk away being like "wow my judgments of him were way off", but instead what I admired was this:

Hostetler in an interview said the sox knew they needed depth in their minors so he set out to create it. Those were his words, but my interpretation of that was "don't swing for the fences, we need baseball players because the home run hitters are coming via trade". Now, I still take issue with the fact that for most of his time, he said "BPA is what you always have to do" which is weird in baseball and also apparently not what he believed. 

However, the guy had a plan, and he executed it...that's my takeaway.

But I'm still not sure it was the best plan, even as we benefit from it. And my main issue is still 2016.

Now 2016 for the sox actually saw a good amount of Major Leaguers:

Players - Collins, Burdi, Lambert, Flores, Foster, Hamilton 

However, the combined WAR of that 2016 group was -0.9. The players from 2017-2019 provided 4 WAR. So 2016 is almost 50% of the players sent to the majors but like negative 20% or something of the WAR.

And that's the draft that kills me. While some of this is unfair comparison because all of the other teams on this list have comp picks. It's a huge deal. It's a huge leg up, trust me, I'm not discounting it. However, the players that were most impactful to date are hard to say were due to that.

2016 for the padres netted them Cal Quantrill, Eric Lauer and Lucchessi (2.1 WAR). None probably make you swoon, but they are valuable starting pitchers. 2 of which were selected ahead of the sox, but still, the sox were in similar position to try and add this kidn of talent.

The Indians this year? They added Civale in round 3 and Bieber in round 4. The sox drafted Alex Call (netted us Yonder Alonso) and Jameson Fisher (in AA). We had the most capital in 2016, yet walked away with least production, but Collins could be on the up and up.

But thennnnn 2017. 2017 is a trash draft. Pretty much nobody did well, though McKay for the Rays (selected 4th overall) may be the best overall WAR leader when its all said and done. There is little to care about after burger was picked except the Royals suddenly have a guy in Pratto who is crushing this year.

The sox now have Burger and Sheets in the bigs and potentially being solid long time offensive players. So they found good value then. In 2018 - Heuer and Madrigal were huge contributors. And vaughn on the way. But those were the top 5 pick guys. I still think there was a huge lack of finding a really solid non-bullpen late round pick that even teams like the tigers found (Skubal).

Basically he did a good job doing what he wanted to do, I'm not sure it was the best thing to do, but he was still better than most and not as good as the best. 

Baseball!!!!

I know what you did was labor intensive but not super labor intensive so It's appreciated. I don't know how deeply you looked into the type of player selected besides college vs HS .

What I mean is many top organizations have been going SS CF types way more and way earlier years wise and hoping their athleticism translates to other positions and creating more versatile ball players as they grow and mature. Those types are also easier to trade . Did you check that out ?

Seems to me that the SS CF type of drafting for the Sox just showed up this year while many  top orgs. have been doing it that way for 5 or more years. I feel like the better orgs stay away from drafting slower, 1st base, C types and focus more on middle of the field athletes with quick bats who can grow into power rather than the power being already an obvious tool.

I think the whole organization should have changed to go along with the rebuild. Better scouting, change in draft philosophy, use more of your international money , use more analytics, biomechanics, slow mo cameras.  Now I can't say when all of these things started but  I think most of it became more of a focus at least a year after they started the rebuild . I'm still not sure if they have caught up to other organization yet in that regard.

Then there's the whole Robert signing but because of penalties imposed they trade away intl money and continued to do it after the penalties were over. They're also not using the international money on younger types from the DR and like to get older types from Cuba. They also made a pitch to get Ohtani but were not one of the 7 finalists and perhaps that's not because they made a poor pitch but Ohtani may have had some predetermined destinations in mind. But he did ask every team to give him reasons why they should sign him. I also seem to remember the Sox didn't have as much Int'l money at the time like many teams did.

Don't get me wrong I am more probing here than making accusations. But I am curious if they are still more of a promote from within organization or did they raid some top scouts or other people for those other important areas that needed upgrading. I know you might not have the answers .

Edited July 14, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, beautox said:

Nice post, I think he did a solid C+ job and went in with a directive and what he imagined the sox would need at the macro level when the window opened; Burger and Sheets coming back from the dead is a huge boost. I see the org trying to cultivate waves for where they think they'll need support in the near term and 2024 as well and its finger prints are all over the 2021 draft; 2 young good looking middle infielders, a high school pitcher and a very athletic hs outfielder, they're building to supplement future trades and 2024

The way i see the farm is as follows:

You have wave one crashing against the major league roster: Burger, Sheets, Burdi, Lambert, Stiever and Gonzalez. This wave is providing depth but they'll be lucky if they can get one 3WAR stand out.

Wave two, the international signings that are in the system or coming shortly and left handed relievers: Cespedes, Colas (when he signs), Cesar Prieto (when he is cleared and possibly signs with the sox), Yolbert Sanchez, Bailey Horn and Konnor Pilkington

Wave three (late 2023/2024): This is where the organization has shifted its focus and rightfully so: 2B - Rodriguez (20 A), SS - Montgomery* (19), 3B - Kath* (18), LF - Bailey (19 ROK), CF - Krogman* (20 A), 3B - Ramos (19 A) and the high school aged core of Kelley, Thompson, Dalquist, Vera and McDougal.

Sox are in a position where they should continue to go high school heavy at both the international and domestic levels going forward. The core has openings in the corner outfield positions with Vaughn likely taking over for Abreu after this contract; but there could easily be a situation where Sheets or Burger continue to deliver on their draft pedigrees and they take over for Abreu after this contract.

If you’re adopting that high school strategy, the majority of the impact will be 2026 and later.

If you’re fortunate with some, 2025.

Other than the Astros in 2019-20-21, no “typical” rebuilding team after the first wave hit has sustained themselves in the back half of a window.

For example, the Royals and Cubs.   The players just got hurt, unaffordable…and then a number of bad FA decisions in concert.

The jury’s still out on Atlanta and Toronto, but we should be trying to emulate Oakland, Cleveland, Tampa Bay and Milwaukee in how we operate…unless we’re going to be at least above a $150 million yearly budget.

This future wave has some pieces, but let’s look at the Royals or the post 2011 Chicago White Sox.  Both teams held onto veterans like Gordon, Perez, Merrifield and Duffy to name a few.  It seems they got caught in between, where they never really bottomed out in a way where they would get at least three Top 3-5 draft picks.  Witt, Jr., and some pieces are definitely better than we have in our system, and they drafted a ton of pitching, but they’re still how many years from even contending?  2 or 3?  They’re definitely behind the Tigers, who hit rock bottom and are now fighting back behind strong drafts while carrying forward the ugly Cabrera deal.

Even the Cubs eventually ran out of money to keep their core together.  Unless you’re the Dodgers and can spend well over $200 million (or the Red Sox/Yankees), you’re going to experience these boom and bust cycles.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know what you did was labor intensive but not super labor intensive so It's appreciated. I don't know how deeply you looked into the type of player selected besides college vs HS .

What I mean is many top organizations have been going SS CF types way more and way earlier years wise and hoping their athleticism translates to other positions and creating more versatile ball players as they grow and mature. Those types are also easier to trade . Did you check that out ?

Seems to me that the SS CF type of drafting for the Sox just showed up this year while many  top orgs. have been doing it that way for 5 or more years. I feel like the better orgs stay away from drafting slower, 1st base, C types and focus more on middle of the field athletes with quick bats who can grow into power rather than the power being already an obvious tool.

I think the whole organization should have changed to go along with the rebuild. Better scouting, change in draft philosophy, use more of your international money , use more analytics, biomechanics, slow mo cameras.  Now I can't say when all of these things started but  I think most of it became more of a focus at least a year after they started the rebuild . I'm still not sure if they have caught up to other organization yet in that regard.

It was a bit frustrating to watch Narvaez, Bassitt, Semien, Escobar and Tatis in the ASG.

Three of those guys are players capable of playing 2-3 or even all four infield positions in a pinch…

 

Obviously things will look better for the Sox with Robert and Madrigal back in the middle, and Adam Engel has been a late blooming success story…but we’ve had a horrible run developing our own outfielders as well as middle infielders, other than the obvious big names already listed and TA7.

We also lack the flexibility to move Moncada to open a spot for Burger…and as a result have a glut of those players now like Sheets, Burger, Collins, Vaughn, Jimenez, Grandal, Abreu that really belong at 1B/DH.  Mercedes, too.

Other than Leury, there’s just not enough positional flexibility.

If you look at the Dodgers, they found three guys like that in Turner, Taylor and Muncy for basically free, and that’s not even counting Kike now with Boston.  That’s one the many reasons they’ve won eight consecutive NL West titles.  The best “find” the White Sox had from all that rebuilding playing time from 2016/17-19 is now an All Star with Milwaukee in Narvaez.  

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It was a bit frustrating to watch Narvaez, Bassitt, Semien, Escobar and Tatis in the ASG.

Three of those guys are players capable of playing 2-3 or even all four infield positions in a pinch…

 

Obviously things will look better for the Sox with Robert and Madrigal back in the middle, and Adam Engel has been a late blooming success story…but we’ve had a horrible run developing our own outfielders as well as middle infielders, other than the obvious big names already listed and TA7.

We also lack the flexibility to move Moncada to open a spot for Burger…and as a result have a glut of those players now like Sheets, Burger, Collins, Vaughn, Jimenez, Grandal, Abreu that really belong at 1B/DH.  Mercedes, too.

Other than Leury, there’s just not enough positional flexibility.

If you look at the Dodgers, they found three guys like that in Turner, Taylor and Muncy for basically free, and that’s not even counting Kike now with Boston.  That’s one the many reasons they’ve won eight consecutive NL West titles.  The best “find” the White Sox had from all that rebuilding playing time from 2016/17-19 is now an All Star with Milwaukee in Narvaez.  

 

I also edited my post to include a few other things I was curious about.

[Chicago White Sox]

Good stuff bmags.  I’ve been wanting to say that the recent “Sox are great at drafting” stuff in the media is a little overblown, especially under Hostetler.  Here’s what we have to show from his five drafts:

• 2015: Backup infielder (Mendick) & 3rd string catcher (Zavala)
• 2016: Backup catcher (Collins), potential reliever (Burdi), & potential swingman (Lambert)
• 2017: Potential 3B (Burger), potential 1B/OF (Sheets), potential 5th OF (Gonzalez), potential reliever (Johnson), & potential swingman (McClure)
• 2018: Starting 2B (Madrigal), setup man (Heuer), & the rest being too early to call
• 2019: Starting LF/1B (Vaughn) & the rest being too early to call

I will admit that I think he started hitting his stride a bit with the 2018 draft, where Nick focused on power arms and started introducing more HS talent into the mix.  While I don’t think we should give too much credit for top four picks (although scouting directors do get these wrong all the time), Madrigal looks like a 10 year starter at 2B, Heuer in the 6th was a great pick, Stiever in the 5th was a great pick, and there still remain several players who could be contributors down the road in Pilkington (3rd), Weaver (7th), Remy Gonzalez (18th), and possibly some of the over-slot college arms that were taken in rounds 12 to 15 (Carranza, Bilous, Martin, & Shilling).  That doesn’t include the selection of Steele Walker in the 2nd (who was traded for a major league piece), which is probably my biggest issue with the strategy of this draft.

He then followed that up in 2019 with a guy who looks like a 10 year starter in Vaughn (a top four pick again), an infusion of HS talent with Thompson, Dalquist, Beard, Torres, Gladney, & Krogman who are all active parts of a young Kannapolis roster, along with some college arms in Freeman & Weems (who helped us land Lynn).  Given the youth of this draft, it’s way too early to tell how it will all shape out, but ultimately the system needed to get younger and this draft accomplished that in strides.

The 2017 draft could work out in the end, but I will say after the top two picks the rest was very meh.  This was one of the safest drafts in recent memory with us taking a ton of low ceiling college players throughout.  But if Burger & Sheets can become legit major contributors, then Nick deserves some credit.  I would argue that the 2015 draft was just plain bad, although Fulmer wasn’t technically Hostetler’s selection and he didn’t have 2nd & 3rd round picks.  The 2016 draft also looks pretty bad in hindsight unless Burdi & Lambert can actually become key members of our pitching staff going forward.  That being said, there was a time we could have capitalized on this draft and moved a guy like Alec Hansen (who was a legit top 100 prospect) for a major league piece.

Also, I do think Nick was to some extent the victim of a poor / developing player development system, as that may have dictated a high floor strategy with some of these earlier drafts and limited the results of those that were selected.  I think Getz has mostly righted that ship now and that could really help the more recent HS heavy drafts be far more productive than his earlier drafts.

[caulfield12]

Fwiw... 

"Several other teams also stocked up on arms. The Los Angeles Dodgers took pitchers with their first 15 picks before sprinkling in position players in the 16th and 18th rounds. The Cleveland Indians ended up with 19 pitchers out of 21 picks."

Other than catcher and RF (where we might already have a Cuban answer),  this strategy of pitching only or pitching first makes so much sense with the elevated number of pitching injuries around the majors (obviously Sox have suffered more on position player side) and the cost of elite starting pitching in free agency. 

It's also another weak point in the current depth chart...unless someone like Vera quickly emerges or one of the three youngsters at lower levels suddenly turns their season around. 

Depending on what happens with Lynn and Rodon, the only other logical place to turn is Japan, Korea and Taiwan. 

 

Interesting also that the richest (Dodgers/Angels) and poorest (Indians) see the niche or competitive advantage being elite starting pitching and lockdown pen being a more viable strategy than constantly losing position stars like Lindor and Jose Ramirez due to market forces. 

[bmags]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Good stuff bmags.  I’ve been wanting to say that the recent “Sox are great at drafting” stuff in the media is a little overblown, especially under Hostetler.  Here’s what we have to show from his five drafts:

• 2015: Backup infielder (Mendick) & 3rd string catcher (Zavala)
• 2016: Backup catcher (Collins), potential reliever (Burdi), & potential swingman (Lambert)
• 2017: Potential 3B (Burger), potential 1B/OF (Sheets), potential 5th OF (Gonzalez), potential reliever (Johnson), & potential swingman (McClure)
• 2018: Starting 2B (Madrigal), setup man (Heuer), & the rest being too early to call
• 2019: Starting LF/1B (Vaughn) & the rest being too early to call

I will admit that I think he started hitting his stride a bit with the 2018 draft, where Nick focused on power arms and started introducing more HS talent into the mix.  While I don’t think we should give too much credit for top four picks (although scouting directors do get these wrong all the time), Madrigal looks like a 10 year starter at 2B, Heuer in the 6th was a great pick, Stiever in the 5th was a great pick, and there still remain several players who could be contributors down the road in Pilkington (3rd), Weaver (7th), Remy Gonzalez (18th), and possibly some of the over-slot college arms that were taken in rounds 12 to 15 (Carranza, Bilous, Martin, & Shilling).  That doesn’t include the selection of Steele Walker in the 2nd (who was traded for a major league piece), which is probably my biggest issue with the strategy of this draft.

He then followed that up in 2019 with a guy who looks like a 10 year starter in Vaughn (a top four pick again), an infusion of HS talent with Thompson, Dalquist, Beard, Torres, Gladney, & Krogman who are all active parts of a young Kannapolis roster, along with some college arms in Freeman & Weems (who helped us land Lynn).  Given the youth of this draft, it’s way too early to tell how it will all shape out, but ultimately the system needed to get younger and this draft accomplished that in strides.

The 2017 draft could work out in the end, but I will say after the top two picks the rest was very meh.  This was one of the safest drafts in recent memory with us taking a ton of low ceiling college players throughout.  But if Burger & Sheets can become legit major contributors, then Nick deserves some credit.  I would argue that the 2015 draft was just plain bad, although Fulmer wasn’t technically Hostetler’s selection and he didn’t have 2nd & 3rd round picks.  The 2016 draft also looks pretty bad in hindsight unless Burdi & Lambert can actually become key members of our pitching staff going forward.  That being said, there was a time we could have capitalized on this draft and moved a guy like Alec Hansen (who was a legit top 100 prospect) for a major league piece.

Also, I do think Nick was to some extent the victim of a poor / developing player development system, as that may have dictated a high floor strategy with some of these earlier drafts and limited the results of those that were selected.  I think Getz has mostly righted that ship now and that could really help the more recent HS heavy drafts be far more productive than his earlier drafts.

See 2017 is where you need context though. That is just an overall trash draft, probably the worst since 2008. The top ten is fine, but I don’t remember any team except the Sox who had a major leaguer to date.

2016 had just incredible talent throughout AND the Sox had the extra pick, it just kills me. Between Tatis and the draft it just out the Sox in such a bad position before the trades propelled them.

Collins is kind of a cool story and it will be interesting to see how he progresses with more playing time.

[bmags]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know what you did was labor intensive but not super labor intensive so It's appreciated. I don't know how deeply you looked into the type of player selected besides college vs HS .

What I mean is many top organizations have been going SS CF types way more and way earlier years wise and hoping their athleticism translates to other positions and creating more versatile ball players as they grow and mature. Those types are also easier to trade . Did you check that out ?

Seems to me that the SS CF type of drafting for the Sox just showed up this year while many  top orgs. have been doing it that way for 5 or more years. I feel like the better orgs stay away from drafting slower, 1st base, C types and focus more on middle of the field athletes with quick bats who can grow into power rather than the power being already an obvious tool.

I think the whole organization should have changed to go along with the rebuild. Better scouting, change in draft philosophy, use more of your international money , use more analytics, biomechanics, slow mo cameras.  Now I can't say when all of these things started but  I think most of it became more of a focus at least a year after they started the rebuild . I'm still not sure if they have caught up to other organization yet in that regard.

Then there's the whole Robert signing but because of penalties imposed they trade away intl money and continued to do it after the penalties were over. They're also not using the international money on younger types from the DR and like to get older types from Cuba. They also made a pitch to get Ohtani but were not one of the 7 finalists and perhaps that's not because they made a poor pitch but Ohtani may have had some predetermined destinations in mind. But he did ask every team to give him reasons why they should sign him. I also seem to remember the Sox didn't have as much Int'l money at the time like many teams did.

Don't get me wrong I am more probing here than making accusations. But I am curious if they are still more of a promote from within organization or did they raid some top scouts or other people for those other important areas that needed upgrading. I know you might not have the answers .

I mainly wanted to look at total productivity to date. 
 

I do think the lack of balance was beyond age, to positions too. It’s a lot of corner bats and bullpen pitchers. However, they did hit on a lot of them, though, and that’s where it’s hard to walk away with too negative a picture.

2018 I really wanted Xavier edwards or Jeremiah Jackson with pick 2. Edwards helped nab Snell. Walker nabbed Mazara. Jackson has moved super slow but is hitting over .800 ops in A ball. Neither of those guys made considerably more, which is why I think so many of us prefer Shirleys drafts - but we won’t know for a while.

[oldsox]

Good thread here.  Thanks.

I can't remember who preceded Hostetler.  There were a couple of really lean drafts in that era.  And, was it Hostetler who picked Anderson?

[bmags]

14 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Good thread here.  Thanks.

I can't remember who preceded Hostetler.  There were a couple of really lean drafts in that era.  And, was it Hostetler who picked Anderson?

Doug Lauman, who drafted Anderson, Rodon, Sale.

 

[oldsox]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Doug Lauman, who drafted Anderson, Rodon, Sale.

 

Thanks, again.  Who preceded Lauman?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Good thread here.  Thanks.

I can't remember who preceded Hostetler.  There were a couple of really lean drafts in that era.  And, was it Hostetler who picked Anderson?

No, that was Doug Laumann, who was the scouting director from 2008 to 2014.  Timmy, Rodon, Bummer, Fry, & Engel are all current White Sox that were selected by Doug.  He also drafted stars in Sale & Semien, but outside of a few others (such as Daniel Hudson) there isn’t much to show for his 7 drafts.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Thanks, again.  Who preceded Lauman?

Duane Shaffer, the guy who notoriously drafted low ceiling pitchers Lance Broadway & Kyle McCulloch in the 1st round of back-to-back drafts.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Thanks, again.  Who preceded Lauman?

Duane Shaffer, fired midseason 2007.

[bmags]

I think the hardest thing to wrap my head around when really digging into Sox intl and drafts is that they aren’t the process of follow, but they aren’t a failure.

Yet this preferred path I hope they go on could totally fail! We may very well get zilch from Beard, Thompson, Dalquist, Kelly, Montgomery, Kath. But we may also get a top ten starter, and those cover up so much on a roster.

[raBBit]

Great thread. It has been very interesting seeing how the Sox moved on from Hostetler as they are typically very loyal and rigid to change. He was a polarizing guy to the front office. Especially when they put the draft in the hands of guys that Hostetler gelled with and empowered in Shirley and Garrett Guest. I definitely hated the Burger/Sheets combo in 2017. Sox even signed Sheets overslot which many don't remember. I feel that might have been the draft that determined Hostetler's fate. Nowadays, it's all of a sudden not looking so bad. Especially with the points bmags made on that draft being so weak league-wide. 

I also hate the Steele Walker and Jameson Fischer (think I liked Fischer at the time, put looking back) picks. Just too many corner-types. There was always an emphasis on "ballplayers" over athletes and with Hostetler he was always raving about make-up. There were a lot of great kids/personalities drafted in Burger/Sheets/Walker/Fisher but damn so many players that really had a high offensive bar to clear to make themselves into productive MLB guys.

While Burger has had his incredible turnaround and is obviously a great young man, it couldn't have looked good on Hostetler the way he raved about the kid's makeup left-and-right and then Burger basically fell apart mentally after his second Achilles injury. The high-high make up 1st rounder was eating frozen pizza, playing video games, dealing with depression and getting fat in the years he was supposed to make his way to the big leagues. Now Hostetler looks better because Burger worked his way though all that adversity but that draft had to look terrible when Burger was a couch potato and Sheets was an over-slot, 1B-only guy with limited success and little game power to show for. All of a sudden Burger jumped the line on everyone and Sheets found his power stroke without losing his contact rates. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by raBBit

[chitownsportsfan]

Am I missing something where are the rest of the teams for the chart? Good post thanks.  I think you have to give him more credit for for Nick and Andrew.  Teams fuck up those picks all the time and if Nick can stay healthy it looks like Sox found two borderline all stars.

[bmags]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Am I missing something where are the rest of the teams for the chart? Good post thanks.  I think you have to give him more credit for for Nick and Andrew.  Teams fuck up those picks all the time and if Nick can stay healthy it looks like Sox found two borderline all stars.

I had to do this manually so I just chose his record vs Padres (we’re in similar positions to Sox), Milwaukee (because I love their f.o.) and the ALC.

If anyone knows a site that sorts the players by draft position and shows some mlb stats in same table it would make this pretty easy to put together. I basically did lookups for draft picks to their 40 man and if they were there I looked up their fWAR.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Am I missing something where are the rest of the teams for the chart? Good post thanks.  I think you have to give him more credit for for Nick and Andrew.  Teams fuck up those picks all the time and if Nick can stay healthy it looks like Sox found two borderline all stars.

Bohm, for example, hasn’t lived up to his billing with PHA.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

The Dodgers 2016 draft has produced 13 big leaguers. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=LAD&year_ID=2016&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year

[ChiSoxJon]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The Dodgers 2016 draft has produced 13 big leaguers. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=LAD&year_ID=2016&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year

Curious what the most successful recent Sox draft was